Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice: What Happens When Best Friends Disagree on Abortion
Abortion. The word alone can end friendships, split families, and turn dinner parties into war zones. So what happens when a conservative Catholic woman and a liberal feminist sit down to discuss reproductive rights? Today's episode tackles the most divisive issue in America through the lens of a nearly four-decade friendship that's survived everything - including this.
When Faith Meets Choice
For Jolene, life begins at conception. Period. Her Catholic beliefs didn't leave room for gray areas, and her conservative values see abortion as ending a human life. But here's where it gets complicated - she's not the caricature that either side wants to paint. She acknowledges the messy realities: rape, incest, life-threatening pregnancies. The black-and-white world of her faith crashes into the technicolor complexity of real women's lives.
The Other Side of the Divide
Nicole's perspective couldn't be more different. Raised without rigid religious doctrine, she sees reproductive choice as fundamental to women's equality. For her, the issue isn't about when life begins - it's about who gets to decide what happens inside a woman's body. She's watched too many women suffer under restrictive laws to believe that the government should have a say in private medical decisions.
Here's what makes this conversation different from the “debates” on cable news: both women actually listen to each other. Jolene doesn't dismiss Nicole's concerns about women dying from back-alley abortions. Nicole doesn't mock Jolene's belief in the sanctity of life. They've found something rare in 2025 - the ability to disagree without demonizing.
What if both sides are partially right? What if protecting women's health and valuing potential life aren't mutually exclusive? What if the real enemy isn't each other, but a system that forces impossible choices? These are the uncomfortable questions that emerge when you move past talking points and into real dialogue.
The truth is messier than either side wants to admit. Most Americans don't fit neatly into "pro-life" or "pro-choice" boxes. They support some restrictions but not others. They believe in exceptions but struggle with where to draw lines. They want women to be safe and babies to be wanted - but they disagree on how to achieve both.
What Friendship Teaches Us
After nearly forty years of friendship, Nicole and Jolene have learned something that political operatives don't want you to know: you can fundamentally disagree with someone and still respect their humanity. You can believe they're wrong about important things and still value their perspective. You can fight for different outcomes while fighting together for better conversations.
The pro-life vs pro-choice debate isn't going anywhere. But maybe the way we have it can change. Maybe we can stop treating each other as enemies and start recognizing each other as people trying to do what they believe is right in an impossibly complex situation.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Georgia Life Act:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_House_Bill_481
Snippet Source - Georgia’s Heartbeat Law:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJrZlVLteOX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
LINKS:
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[00:00:00] Nicole: She's conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money.
[00:00:08] We say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud. Hello, Jolene.
[00:00:18] Jolene: Hello, Nicole.
[00:00:20] Nicole: before we begin this episode, uh, we wanted to touch base on something that came up in our social media. Uh, one of our listeners, uh, sent us a clip that we will share with you. it was about reproductive rights and we've already recorded a reproductive rights episode, but we thought this is new information that we would share this, uh, with everyone and then give our reaction before we get into the episode.
[00:00:48] So I'm going to play the clip.
[00:00:50]
[00:01:59] Jolene: it's a [00:02:00] heartbreaking story. is she being kept alive because of Georgia's new, life act as it's called?
[00:02:06] Nicole: Where is it called? A life act? 'cause I just heard this Heartbeat. Heartbeat
[00:02:10] Jolene: was from the Attorney General Chris Carr for Georgia, and his statement is. There is nothing in the Life Act that requires medical professionals to keep a woman on life support after brain death. Removing life support is not an action with the purpose to terminate a pregnancy.
[00:02:30] So the Attorney General is saying, this woman is not being kept alive because of the Life Act , I am wondering if the real story here is, um, the mother went on to say today, and this was just an interview that I saw just a couple hours ago or I, that I read, didn't see that she, the mother said, we want the baby that's a part of my daughter.
[00:02:54] The decision should have been left to us, not the state.
[00:02:57] Nicole: Oh.
[00:02:58] Jolene: I think the real story [00:03:00] is here Who's saying that she couldn't be taken off of life support if the Attorney General, because I was reading all the articles. You know, as we kind of, you know, take a deep dive in this and you look at all the articles and, and all that, all of the articles that I was reading was saying that the doctors were afraid to pull the plug.
[00:03:17] Because they could then be arrested for, you know, violating this, this new law. And if the attorney general comes out and says, this has nothing to do with that law. Who's propagating this information?
[00:03:31] Nicole: I don't know.
[00:03:33] Jolene: Right. I, I'm, I'm hoping they're not using this case as a way to make, uh, this law seem like it's being used for nefarious purposes. Right.
[00:03:47] Nicole: I feel, uh, like really stupid, honestly, And this may be, this is part of the problem. I saw that clip and just believed whatever random guy is saying, I didn't even [00:04:00] think, honestly, to look up and see if it was valid or not. And you did.
[00:04:07] Jolene: Well, I'll tell you, it was not easy
[00:04:09] Nicole: Did the family want this baby? Do they not want this baby? Because the way that clip is cut, it's cut that it's painful to see my daughter alive.
[00:04:19] How did you Google it? What information did you
[00:04:22] Jolene: So when I Googled, Georgia Woman Brain Dead.
[00:04:26] Nicole: Okay.
[00:04:27] Jolene: All of these things come up, So it's all of these articles about, you know, people are outraged that this law is being used in this way and what a horrible tragedy it 95% of the articles were about the outrage of this.,
[00:04:42] Nicole: I'm looking at the Guardian article right now and it's, uh, agreeing with you. It's saying we didn't have a choice or a say about it. We want the baby. That's a part of my daughter, but the decision should have been left to us, not the state. Smith is currently at 22 weeks [00:05:00] in her pregnancy.
[00:05:01] The hospital plans to keep Smith on life support until early August when doctors will deliver the baby through a cesarean section. Uh, the chances of there being a healthy newborn at the end of this is a very, very small says the director of maternal fetal medicine division at George Washington University, he may be blind, may not be able to walk, may not survive.
[00:05:26] Oh, it's just so heartbreaking.
[00:05:30] Jolene: It is. So, okay. So then I think the question is, and by the way, the, the article that I read was off of 11 Alive, Atlanta News from 11 Alive.
[00:05:40] Nicole: But I think it's actually important because the way that clip is shown, it's, it's edited. That the mother's upset to having, seeing her daughter alive, but now they're actually saying [00:06:00] that they do want the baby 'cause it's part of the daughter. But I think the, the important takeaway that we're both understanding is that they wanted to make the decision, not the state.
[00:06:16] Jolene: So she also says in this article, the baby is actually doing better than the last time I met with doctors. They've named the baby. His name is Chance. Yeah, Chance's, heartbeat is strong and that he's measuring slightly above average in weight for his gestational age.
[00:06:29] He has his toes, arms, limbs, everything is forming. We're just hoping he makes it. So again, my concern here is, has somebody taken this and, and is trying to exploit this family you know, she didn't have a health directive. Um, I read that in an earlier article. So is the reason that they're not able to take her off of, life support?
[00:06:51] Is it because she didn't have a health directive? And that now there's another life? Involved. I mean, okay. Now, I mean, maybe, [00:07:00] maybe that's it. I don't know. I just,
[00:07:03] Nicole: like people are using it for political
[00:07:05] Jolene: right,
[00:07:06] Nicole: that they're not caring about the actual human beings that are Yes, and And
[00:07:13] Jolene: and is that what this mother understands? You know, how heartbreaking for her,
[00:07:17] Nicole: exactly.
[00:07:18] So yeah, so I guess there's a lot here, which takes us into our.
[00:07:25] Reproductive rights episode.
[00:07:27] Jolene: Can I add one other thing
[00:07:28] Nicole: Sure. Of
[00:07:29] Jolene: And, As I first started looking at this, um, story and, and looking into all the particulars, I did see where a doctor talked about what it is to be brain dead and what are the medical procedures that are done to, to keep somebody alive who has been deemed brain dead?
[00:07:51] , And I feel like it's important to share this because being Catholic, if I believe that all life is sacred [00:08:00] and that life begins at conception and one of the other things that I think is important in my opinion of, of life being Catholic is that Catholics don't believe in, in vitro fertilization and it really stems from the reason they don't believe in birth control.
[00:08:23] That the, the physical act of a man and a woman creating life. Having sex and creating life is such a sacred, should be, should be a sacred thing. And so anything that interferes with that natural process, is frowned upon in the Catholic church. So that's why they don't believe in birth control, because you're creating a barrier, into that act that creates human life.
[00:08:49] And that's why they don't believe in in vitro fertilization because you're now doing this, um, you're creating life outside of the womb and then implanting it. [00:09:00] In this case, and I don't know this to be true, but in this case, all of these artificial means of keeping a woman alive for the purpose of life, I feel is counterintuitive to the Catholic church's belief.
[00:09:16] So this doctor was talking about, it's not just , a breathing tube, that's only good for two weeks, and then you have to put in a tracheostomy. And so now you've, you know, you've cut a hole and you're putting in the breathing tube in, you know, just not, not via the mouth anymore.
[00:09:31] And all the antibiotics that you're given because to prevent infections from all of this and you're given a feeding tube, you know, so you're inserting, again, making a, a puncture into, directly into your stomach to give you a feeding tube. And then all of the, the hormones then, he went into great detail of all of the things that have to be done to keep a person who is brain dead alive for whatever the purposes might be.
[00:09:57] I mean, it's truly heroic [00:10:00] efforts. It's not a natural process. So my initial thought on this whole thing as I was reading this is, this is not, I mean, I know this is a life, when this life was discovered at nine weeks, that that baby is not viable and, having all these heroic efforts outside of the natural process just seems really counterintuitive to, to the belief systems.
[00:10:29] So then you go back, okay, then how come you don't believe in abortion before, you know, before the baby's viable at 24? That's the natural process. I mean, that baby is going to survive. This baby in her womb would not survive if she wasn't on these, you know, all of these necessary, , medical procedures to keep her alive.
[00:10:50] Does that, does that make sense? Did I make that
[00:10:53] Nicole: it's, it's fascinating. It's fascinating. I absolutely understand where [00:11:00] you are coming from, where your beliefs are, and why you believe what you believe. Absolutely.
[00:11:08] Jolene: If that's all we could ask for.
[00:11:10] Nicole: Yeah. I might not.
[00:11:12] Jolene: Agree.
[00:11:15] Nicole: To me it's sacred to have choice of my over my own body, but I totally, you made this very clear in a way that I've never understood it before and I appreciate you clarifying that. Which will be an interesting way to go into the reproductive rights conversation that we had a couple of weeks ago.
[00:11:42] So thank you, Jolene.
[00:11:47] Jolene: I just wanna start by saying I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I think just by talking about , how each of us developed our opinions on this [00:12:00] is important.
[00:12:00] And again, I, I know it's been talked about. In so many different areas, and especially, when Roe versus Wade was,
[00:12:08] Nicole: Overturned.
[00:12:10] Jolene: overturned, but overturned. I don't even like that term. And I guess we'll get into that as well.
[00:12:16] Nicole: I did some research, but I didn't do a ton, because there's a fine line with all of these episodes where I wanna be prepared and have facts, but I also wanna be able to listen to you, Jolene, and to create room. And also I find as liberals, we wanna be right. And we tend to throw a ton of facts and we're not very nice about it
[00:12:48] and when you're doing that, I don't think there's any room for discussion. ' sometimes it can help.
[00:12:54] Sometimes we need to fact check and it totally, absolutely works. But sometimes it's I [00:13:00] think really important, like you said, to listen to each other. We have very different experiences, in this topic. And I think it's really important to respect each other always, but in this particular topic is a big one.
[00:13:22] So I was raised by a Jewish father and a Christian mother with no, religious.
[00:13:30] Background really. We did all the holidays and none of the teachings really. And when my parents divorced, they wanted me to choose. And I was a very angry little 10-year-old. And I said, nope. But then when I got to the University of Iowa, I was a theater major, but I ended up minoring in, Western religion.
[00:13:52] And I studied, an emphasis in, Holocaust literature, but I ended up taking all these religion courses and I read the [00:14:00] Old Testament and the New Testament.
[00:14:01] I bring this up because the main takeaway that I experienced as I was reading these texts, 'cause I, I'd heard people using it for all kinds of things.
[00:14:14] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:16] Nicole: that the Bible one and two is a pretty straightforward text, and where it gets really tricky is how a person interprets it and how the person can weaponize it or use it for whichever way they wanna prove. It's their belief. And so I think there's a lot of things that I struggle with in this conversation with reproductive rights, but one of the things I really struggle with is when people use, the scripture to justify, abortion because from what I [00:15:00] was learned in both texts, life begins at breath if we're gonna go down this road and that the mother, her life is actually more important. I was reading this thing in, in preparation for this episode, whereas this is this guy who, he has left the church, but he was a very, very strict, uh, raised conservative Christian, I don't even know what you would call it, maybe evangelical.
[00:15:32] And he went through all . These scriptures explaining like that. So as it turns out in terms of healthcare, some kind of form of abortion has always been in like Greek and Roman times through medicinal, tonics sometimes for the care of a woman because there she's not gonna be able to carry to term.
[00:15:57] They said sometimes [00:16:00] because, she might've be carrying another man's baby that there were cert that it's been going on since the beginning of, I guess life or creation. it was in the third century. The Assyrians who were a sect of Israelite, they were the first known group to, talk about like anti-sex laws.
[00:16:26] And that's when they brought, the idea of abortion being bad. But the Bible knew of these laws and didn't put it in the Bible. So maybe I'm getting too in the weeds, but I was thinking about that but I know you're a Catholic and I respect it and I love you for it.
[00:16:50] So I'm never gonna say. Believe what I believe.
[00:16:55] Jolene: Yeah. Nope. I think when you talk about, abortion and birth [00:17:00] control. , It's one of those things that it's so complicated and it's not one size fits all, I don't think it's black and white,
[00:17:06] I would also say that you are right when you say that the Bible, can be interpreted, many different ways.
[00:17:14] Nicole: Do the Catholics work with the Old Testament? I can't remember.
[00:17:17] Jolene: mm-hmm. Old and
[00:17:18] Nicole: Old and new. Okay.
[00:17:19] Jolene: And I mean, all Christian, I would say all Christian religions, are old and New Testament.
[00:17:24] So, you know, old
[00:17:26] Nicole: Because the Jews are just old.
[00:17:28] Jolene: Yes. Right. In the Torah. So then you've got then the New Testament with you know, Jesus and, and talking about Jesus, his life. Okay. If we start with the religion part, you're right. I believe that, life begins at conception.
[00:17:44] , That's something that, that I came to realize. I didn't always believe that. I mean, I was raised Methodist and I think my mom was probably pro-choice. And I was definitely, my, my roommate in college, her mother [00:18:00] was the director of Planned Parenthood in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. So I mean, I was out there protesting and, and you know, in, in favor of abortion rights and, because I was in college and I think most kids are probably
[00:18:16] at their most liberal if they were raised conservative, they get to college and go, yeah, I'm gonna do my own thing. And that was me.
[00:18:23] Nicole: Was it something you believed or was it something to be a part of something both?
[00:18:30] Jolene: no, I think it was what I believed. You know, you're in college and you're just like, live and let live and, and let's have a good time I don't think you're worried about repercussions. You're not looking long term. As I look back on my college years, that's probably pretty accurate. My very good friend got an abortion. I was with her. Took her to Planned Parenthood in Des Moines and while she was having her abortion, and I mean, to this day, I mean, it is a really hard [00:19:00] thing for her to grapple with.
[00:19:01] My other good friend, very first night that she and her now husband went on a date, had sex, got pregnant, had an abor, both of them decided let's get an abortion. And then they ended up getting married and have kids and live happily ever after.
[00:19:19] So I understand, I get it. All I'm saying, for me and the way that I live my life, I believe that birth begins at conception. And so Jeff and I have practiced natural family planning since we've been married and, you know, no birth control and we've had three healthy pregnancies. I could go in really deep on the religious aspects of sex and all that.
[00:19:46] But that's for me, and it's what I'm teaching my girls. I don't feel like I need to preach that to anyone else because it's such a personal issue I think that we have enough, birth control [00:20:00] methods now that are free with Obamacare.
[00:20:03] Birth control is free to every single woman in America. I just have a real problem with people not taking advantage of that. And again I don't actually believe in birth control 'cause I'm Catholic. But that's for me. But I'm saying for others that don't believe as I believe they need to be on birth control now, that's an easy thing to say, and I know that again, then we can go down this rabbit hole then of all the other things that are involved in this conversation.
[00:20:38] Nicole: taking what's going on in Texas where it is this, it feels like a Christian crusade and where since Roe was overturned in Texas, there's been a 50% increase of women going into sepsis.
[00:20:58] And I was [00:21:00] reading that if a person performs an abortion in Texas, they can get up to 99 years in prison. and we can get into the weeds of, do you believe. That people that have been raped or incest, what I'm most concerned honestly is, the healthcare of women.
[00:21:25] That's the wellness of women. We've had a private conversation where it's also never occurred to me that people used abortion for birth control. Abortion seems to be such an enormous decision to make. And it's hard on your body and it can be expensive. And now there's less planned Parenthoods like I would think you would do everything in your power to, if you're with a partner or on a date to use a [00:22:00] condom and like use a condom or.
[00:22:05] Get a diaphragm or all the things that one might be able to do,
[00:22:10] not use an abortion. So I am more concerned in this conversation, with The government taking away women's rights to the health of their own bodies.
[00:22:26] And of course like everything else, it affects poor people the most. But I want control, and again, like I've said this before, I think the liberals suck at pr. I think pro-choice doesn't work.
[00:22:46] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:46] Nicole: I want to have the say of what happens with my body. Just like, I want you to have the say of what happens with your body. I don't want the government to tell me, sorry, [00:23:00] you're hemorrhaging. You happen to live in Texas. Peace out. You get to die
[00:23:08] this is about the Christian, right. Putting their stamp on it or something like it seems. Honestly, Jolene, it just seems darker to me. And speaking to a, a Catholic and a Christian, it doesn't seem Christian,
[00:23:24] Jolene: What the Christians would say to that is, you are only talking about the mother. You are not talking about the human that you're killing when you have an abortion. What about the rights of that baby?
[00:23:39] Nicole: And on our side we would call it a fetus, but I hear you. I'm truly, I'm thinking about the women that are hemorrhaging.
[00:23:49] Jolene: And you're right,
[00:23:50] Nicole: That part
[00:23:50] is upsetting the wellness of us as women, and this is my belief, that the mom has more rights. The mom [00:24:00] is more important. That person is alive and trying to give to another life and clearly this is my opinion, that if her body is rejecting that life, that that life isn't viable and
[00:24:17] her life, let's help her.
[00:24:21] Jolene: to a degree I agree with you, right? I mean, if someone is, you know, three months pregnant and is hemorrhaging and they say, we're gonna have to save your life, we're gonna have to take the life of the baby, I would say, in theory, you are absolutely right. Like if that baby is not viable, then why not do the medically correct thing and, you know, save that mother's life.
[00:24:52] I agree with you 100%. So, but then where we get into the gray area is when you [00:25:00] talk about, you know, protecting the life of the mother, I think there are people that will take advantage of that, concept and say, well, her life is not going to be very good if she has to have this baby. And so we are protecting the life of that mother by allowing her to get an abortion, and not because she's in a medically.
[00:25:24] Precarious way, but that she goes, no, I can't. My job is too important, or I don't like the guy that got me pregnant. Or, you know, whatever the circumstances are. You'll have people take advantage of that, and say, well, I mean, her mental health will not be good if she has this baby.
[00:25:43] So then you're taking away the spirit of that law.
[00:25:46] Nicole: What do you think about what's been going on in Texas and those women because they were like pregnant women trying to have a baby.
[00:25:53] Jolene: I'd have to see the stories because I don't, I'm not familiar.
[00:25:56] Nicole: Yeah. So that's, interesting thing to bring up [00:26:00] because in liberal media we'd hear about it all day long, every day. I can't off the top of my head tell you their names. I know their faces.
[00:26:10] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:26:11] Nicole: And during, the Kamala campaign, it was all over. And then there were that poor girl.
[00:26:20] You must have heard of this woman, this young woman, Dylan, who was raped by her stepfather.
[00:26:26] , It couldn't be more present in the campaigning. In and in liberal media. Every woman that died after Roe was taken off the books in liberal media, every death has been highlighted. It is in our consciousness.
[00:26:47] And so fascinating to me and maybe to other people listening that it isn't on the right,
[00:26:55] Jolene: it could be because then the right is wanting to tell, you know, switch [00:27:00] that narrative to, we've gotta help these, people,
[00:27:03] we,
[00:27:04] Nicole: Jolene. There's nothing to see here. Right?
[00:27:07] We've locked it down in Texas. We're not nothing to see here, which both are manipulative
[00:27:14] Jolene: Yeah. Right.
[00:27:15] What would be the common ground that we would agree on here? Do you agree? There are seven states that allow third trimester abortions? Are you against that?
[00:27:28] Nicole: are you sure about that?
[00:27:29] Jolene: There are 44 states that prohibit abortions in the third trimester. The states that allow abortions in the third trimester, Oregon, Colorado, Minnesota, New Mexico, Vermont, New Jersey, and dc
[00:27:43] Nicole: they're just like, oh, I don't wanna have the baby anymore. Or there's a
[00:27:46] medical reason.
[00:27:48] Jolene: there are no restrictions.
[00:27:50] That's a hard one, isn't
[00:27:51] Nicole: let me just say this, like I understand why it's not okay with you. I can see and I can feel why it's not [00:28:00] okay for you
[00:28:01] I guess where my belief is different is I don't feel like I have the right to make a decision for them, but I really understand why you don't think it's okay.
[00:28:12] Jolene: But at that, if the baby is viable outside of the womb, I mean, let's just take, I mean, that really should be. Kind of a starting point, right? I mean, me, if I believe that conception, is the start of a life, then I don't believe it at all. But I get where people are saying, before it's actually viable, is it really a baby?
[00:28:32] I understand where people would make that argument. So let's say, 22, 23, 24 weeks, science is getting better and better every day. So I mean, heck, it might be 20, I don't know, 22 weeks. Is that a starting point for, for Democrats and Republicans or even pro-choice anti-choice
[00:28:55] Nicole: Well, here's the thing. I can't speak for everyone. I can speak for me [00:29:00] that the viability, I can work with that myself.
[00:29:05] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:29:06] Nicole: I really have a hard time with the rape and incest.
[00:29:09] Jolene: Yeah, I, I would, I agree with you.
[00:29:11] Nicole: It's usually the super religious that throw the Bible at it or throw their religious beliefs at it. Well, that's real easy to do when you've not been the one that is a victim of rap or in cest.
[00:29:25] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:29:26] Nicole: I just, gosh.
[00:29:27] It just breaks my heart.
[00:29:29] Jolene: well, what would prevent somebody from saying, yeah, I got raped. So then you're like, oh, okay. We take her word for it. If somebody wants to have an abortion, she goes, yep. That's the part where if you make that concession, then how do you prove it?
[00:29:42] It's so hard.
[00:29:43] Nicole: having been a victim of rape. And the irony is, it was, gosh, when was it? Jolene? Like the second week of school.
[00:29:55] Jolene: Or it was at least the first
[00:29:57] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:29:57] It was definitely the first month. My [00:30:00] dear friend Jolene, you were the one that I told, It was awful. And he gave me all kinds of diseases. I mean, it was a good time. And you were just so, uh, loving and supportive. And I think we've talked about this before, but I think it was like the week after Time Magazine did, uh, a front page, a cover story about date rape. It was the fall of 1987, and no one had talked about it before, that was not a thing.
[00:30:39] Rape was jumping out of the bus bushes
[00:30:42] and right with a stranger. And unfortunately I've had several friends, uh, in college under certain, uh, circumstances like mine, uh, that were raped as well. and it's obviously awful and [00:31:00] I don't think I could have gotten through it without you.
[00:31:03] Jolene: Oh
[00:31:04] Nicole: I feel wildly grateful that I didn't get pregnant.
[00:31:08] Jolene: yeah.
[00:31:09] Nicole: I was on the pill.
[00:31:10] Because I had a boyfriend that didn't live at Iowa. Thank God I was on birth control. But let's use this story and what if I hadn't been, what if I got pregnant? Like, all to say that. I think it's a big thing to say you have been raped.
[00:31:35] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:37] Nicole: I was filled with shame. I thought it was completely my fault. I didn't drink for four. Like through that was it. I didn't drink in college. 'cause it was if you drink, you are out of control and then bad things happen.
[00:31:56] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:57] Nicole: so I'm really grateful that I didn't get [00:32:00] pregnant and didn't have to make that choice.
[00:32:04] Two of my best friends went through it and we're just three women in 1987. Like
[00:32:09] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:32:10] Nicole: so yeah. I don't know how you prove that. I just wish we were in a world where our word meant something that people could respect each other's choice.
[00:32:25] That the government didn't throw down the hammer. So that women were not put in a position that they have to worry about their healthcare and worry that they have to prove that they were raped or a victim of incest or I just.
[00:32:46] Jolene: Right.
[00:32:46] Nicole: the world was different.
[00:32:48] You know, I understand where you're coming from 'cause you believe that life begins a conception. what's sounding to me is [00:33:00] that you have a healthy skepticism, and please correct me if I'm wrong,
[00:33:06] Jolene: No,
[00:33:07] Nicole: uh, that you have a healthy skepticism of maybe human beings and what they say or do, 'cause you, you've said like, oh, well maybe they're using abortion as a birth control, or they're using federal funds
[00:33:25] But in terms of of government control, doesn't that seem hypocritical? If you want, truly want a smaller government. Shouldn't we just like live and let live?
[00:33:37] Jolene: Leave the government out of
[00:33:38] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:33:39] Jolene: except the government makes laws to protect Americans. We have speed limits so people don't drive too fast and kill other people, we've got, laws against doing illicit drugs because of what you can do to harm yourself or, or harm others.
[00:33:57] We are a nation of laws. [00:34:00] And if we can't protect the most vulnerable being a baby who can't speak for themselves and can't advocate for themselves, then that is the role of the government. That is what the government should do.
[00:34:15] It should protect the most vulnerable. I've had this conversation with my very good friend whose mother has admitted to her. Now, if abortion was legal and I was pregnant with you, I would've aborted you. And she goes, and probably your two brothers too. She's being completely honest because she was unmarried it was a bad situation.
[00:34:35] And had abortion been legal? She goes, yeah, I would've had an abortion because that's what made sense for her. Now my friend is a successful doctor and, you know, a wonderful Christian mother and wife and I mean, is an incredible human being. And so I look at that and I go, if this world were without her, what a shame.
[00:34:59] You [00:35:00] know, how horrible, because that would've been such an easy decision for her mother to make in those circumstances. So again, if my fundamental belief is that all life is a gift from God, then how do you pick and choose which life you know, needs to not live out its term and which life does?
[00:35:25] Nicole: But again, like when these states put these really strict laws where the women, a woman is. Dying if she doesn't get medical care, meaning she needs to have a DNC, she needs to clear out the, these are my words, not viable fetus, so that she can be alive. What do you think about that? Like I can't even imagine being a doctor and having the fear of, if I help this woman, I could you know, serve 99 years in prison.
[00:35:59] [00:36:00] When you take the oath as a doctor to help people and you're seeing that this woman is dying,
[00:36:06] like, what do you think about that?
[00:36:08] Jolene: There have to be laws for that.
[00:36:11] Nicole: do
[00:36:11] Jolene: YY yes, that doesn't seem right.
[00:36:13] Yeah,
[00:36:14] I
[00:36:14] Nicole: doesn't seem right.
[00:36:16] We both agreed on something.
[00:36:18] Jolene: I know.
[00:36:20] Nicole: I mean, listen, this is hard and people are gonna listen to this and probably scream at me for not asking you the things that I needed to ask you and scream at you for whatever.
[00:36:36] Jolene: The thing that I wish that we could work on, that we would put more emphasis on not having this be the role of the government. , I think the role of the government, yes. Is to, is to provide laws to protect its people. But when I look at the availability of, of birth control and the availability of.
[00:36:58] You know, people who [00:37:00] would love to adopt a baby, you know, if they just had the, the opportunity. I look at that and think, why can't we make more resources available for those scenarios than making it so easy to have an abortion? And I think that's probably the basic, tenet of the Republican view.
[00:37:23] You know, let's stop making abortion so easy.
[00:37:27] Nicole: But aren't people still
[00:37:28] Getting the same amount of abortions?
[00:37:30] Jolene: No it has slowly declined. And this was a Pew Research article, that I looked at. it was actually done by the, the Gut Mocker Institute which was a, a super interesting article and full of facts and figures and all that. And so it's interesting how many people use it though for birth control.
[00:37:51] I I think if we could start there. Gosh, that's just where are you reading that? Like I just, I guess I'm [00:38:00] naive.
[00:38:00] So this was Pew Research Center
[00:38:02] on the Pew, website, p research center,
[00:38:06] PEW.
[00:38:08] Nicole: Okay.
[00:38:08] Jolene: This was for, March of 2024 article that was written, March of 2024.
[00:38:14] It was interesting that 62% of American citizens believe that abortion should be legal and 36% believe it should be illegal. But there was less than 1% who take an absolutist view, you know, who say,
[00:38:29] Nicole: Oh, that's interesting because it's more nuanced, right? When you get down to it, it's more nuanced.
[00:38:34] Jolene: Absolutely there that it's not,
[00:38:37] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:38] Jolene: it's not an easy thing. Do you know how many abortions there were in the United States in 2021?
[00:38:45] Nicole: I have no idea
[00:38:47] Jolene: Like, take a guess. How many abortions do you think there were?
[00:38:50] Nicole: how many people are on the, are in our country like.
[00:38:53] Jolene: 340 million
[00:38:54] Nicole: Okay, because I was gonna say a hundred thousand.
[00:38:59] Jolene: abortions.[00:39:00]
[00:39:00] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:01] Jolene: There were 625,000 abortions in 2021. And that, doesn't include California, Maryland, New Hampshire, or New Jersey.
[00:39:13] Nicole: Why
[00:39:13] Jolene: that's, uh,
[00:39:15] because they don't provide their state data for abortions.
[00:39:19] Nicole: Okay.
[00:39:21] Jolene: New Jersey is one that allows, third trimester abortions and California, there's probably a lot in California.
[00:39:32] Nicole: Being a Californian, I wanna know what really,
[00:39:36] Jolene: I mean, let's just be honest,
[00:39:40] Nicole: everyone's just having an abortion every
[00:39:42] Jolene: you know, everybody's having
[00:39:43] an abortion in ca, California.
[00:39:46] I mean, that's a lot of abortions.
[00:39:49] Nicole: about now? Does it
[00:39:51] Jolene: They don't have, that's the last time that they have data. This was a 2024 article, but they
[00:39:56] only produce that
[00:39:57] Nicole: but then you said to me that, that it, [00:40:00] that it's been lowered.
[00:40:01] Jolene: from the 1980s and nineties, the, the peak of abortions there were, there was like 1.4 million in the eighties and nineties. Like, that was,
[00:40:10] the peak year was like 1989 or something, and there were 1.4 million abortions
[00:40:17] then. So it has declined.
[00:40:19] Nicole: I tried to look up how many deaths had happened and after, Roe was no longer, I'll just say that,
[00:40:28] Jolene: yeah.
[00:40:28] Nicole: and Texas doesn't keep track,
[00:40:34] which again is like Yeah. Or due to abortion or complications. They don't have any record. Which again, is that sort of like nothing to see here, which I think is a talk about a shame.
[00:40:46] I think that's a shame too. This is a where, where it feels bigger to me about that women. Our welfare, our healthcare is important. And [00:41:00] women, if that matters to you, we need to rise up
[00:41:05] Jolene: I would also say too, that the reversal of Roe versus Wade It didn't make abortions illegal. The reversal made it not a federal,
[00:41:16] Nicole: Right. And I understand that. But that, but whenever they talk about states, it's like, that happened, like states rights with slavery. It was like, it's just, to me, an excuse. And then there's these people, these young women in states that, and they're poor and they can't get out. And that's, it's just the luck of the draw.
[00:41:38] Did that make sense, what I just said?
[00:41:40] Jolene: Yeah, sort of.
[00:41:41] But I would also say that birth control is free.
[00:41:44] Nicole: Are you sure about that?
[00:41:47] Jolene: birth control is completely free.
[00:41:50] The exam,
[00:41:51] Nicole: when we were coming up, it was so expensive,
[00:41:55] and I was on birth control. I went to my mom at [00:42:00] 15 years old conservatives. It's, I'm sorry. I know, I swear too much. And I started having sex too young, but I was 15 and I had a boyfriend and I said to my mom, I would like to go on the birth control pill.
[00:42:12] And she was like, okay. And we went to the gynecologist and she assumed I'd been pregnant. And I was like, no, I just wanna be responsible. She goes, oh my God. I wish other girls would do that. So I went on the pill,
[00:42:28] Jolene: oh, wait. You mean your doctor assumed you were
[00:42:30] pregnant, not your mother. I thought you meant your
[00:42:33] Nicole: No, no, no. My doctor assumed that the reason I was on the pill is I'd been pregnant before
[00:42:38] Jolene: I
[00:42:39] Nicole: and I was like, no, but I was 15 years old, and yes, I did have privilege My parents paid, it was expensive to be on the pill. It wasn't until like Viagra came out that immediately got covered, and women's birth control was not covered. It wasn't covered until fairly recently, if this is what
[00:42:58] Jolene: Oh, I think with ob, I [00:43:00] think with Obamacare, yeah.
[00:43:01] Nicole: bless you, Obama. I feel like I need to fact check this, but if you're saying that it's free, I'm gonna believe you. But maybe people don't know how to get it. Like what's the disconnect then?
[00:43:17] Jolene: There's an argument to be made that our welfare system rewards mothers to have children, to have a lot of children. And the more children you have, the more money the government will give you in terms of food stamps and medical care. And,
[00:43:33] Nicole: So we're going down that road.
[00:43:35] Jolene: well, I don't wanna go down that road, but I think that that is
[00:43:39] Nicole: all that. Doge is trying to cut all of that out.
[00:43:42] but as a Christian, aren't you psyched that they're just having babies?
[00:43:45] Jolene: No. No,
[00:43:48] Nicole: me that's like a double standard.
[00:43:50] Jolene: no. I want people to be responsible if birth
[00:43:53] Nicole: to be responsible too.
[00:43:55] Jolene: Okay. So if birth control is free, I don't want you having babies just so that you can get more [00:44:00] money and you can stay on your welfare and,
[00:44:03] Nicole: seems so extreme and crazy.
[00:44:07] Jolene: oh, I, it sure does. And it sure happens.
[00:44:11] Nicole: How do you know this?
[00:44:13] Jolene: I have people,
[00:44:17] Nicole: What does that mean? You have people,
[00:44:21] Jolene: I know people who take advantage, who live that life.
[00:44:24] Nicole: you, do you do firsthand know those
[00:44:27] Jolene: Yep.
[00:44:29] Nicole: Is there is that narrative being fed in, in the media that you watch too?
[00:44:36] Jolene: I don't think so. I don't think that, because that was something actually go back to Bill Clinton who really tried , to make, the work laws, you couldn't, you're not eligible until you, for Medicare and med, you know, the whole welfare system and you've gotta prove that you're looking for work or you've gotta, babysit, blah, blah, blah.
[00:44:57] but our system still [00:45:00] rewards the more kids you have, the more money you're gonna
[00:45:02] Nicole: Well, that I know because I didn't have any tax benefits as a single successful woman. None. And then I married Josh and I got some, Ben, I got some benefits, but I was like, that doesn't seem fair. I'm working my tail off and I don't because I didn't have a baby.
[00:45:26] Jolene: So the spirit of the law.
[00:45:27] Nicole: I need, I think we need to reform that too.
[00:45:30] Jolene: Biden, I think even upped the amount of money that you could, get if you had children. The child tax credit, I think was increased under Biden. Again, the intent of that law is to help provide childcare, added expenses of being a parent, assuming that, both parents are working and living paycheck to paycheck.
[00:45:51] And so then you've got people who take advantage of that situation.
[00:45:57] You're always gonna have people who are trying to scam the [00:46:00] system.
[00:46:00] Nicole: Is that like the forefront of your thinking that people are out to scam or there's something behind it?
[00:46:12] Jolene: No, I wouldn't say that's a majority of the people. I think the, again, the intent of the law is to help those people who need a little extra help. And I think everybody, every Republican would say, you know, we, we absolutely want to give, a helping hand to those people who need it.
[00:46:31] But we don't wanna give a handout. And I think that's where we get into this problem where if we don't have, checks and balances in our government programs, then we get into a bad situation.
[00:46:49] Nicole: Well, that goes to another topic that we can't talk about, but checks and balances stuff is getting so destroyed that there's gonna be no more checks and balances.
[00:46:57] Jolene: Nope. I believe in the [00:47:00] checks and balances system and the system's
[00:47:02] Nicole: You
[00:47:02] do. Me too. I I, I believe in it too. And I'm a little concerned, but we can talk about that another time
[00:47:10] 'Cause I think it's important.
[00:47:11] Jolene: Yeah, no, I do too.
[00:47:13] Nicole: Wow. This was heavy and this was long. And I know that if you're listening, it's probably very frustrating and I'd like to invite ourselves to be able to, I. Talk about this some more. I don't think that these topics, you don't sum it up in one fell swoop. And it, like you said, it's very nuanced. 1% is are the extremists and the rest of us are somewhere, right? Somewhere on the
[00:47:50] spectrum.
[00:47:51] Jolene: Yeah. Truly.
[00:47:53] Nicole: Should we lighten it, the load a little and do it?
[00:47:56] Would you rather
[00:47:57] Jolene: Yes. [00:48:00] God. .
[00:48:01] Nicole: Would you rather have skin that changes color based on your emotions
[00:48:08] Jolene: Oh,
[00:48:09] Nicole: or tattoos all of your body depicting what you did yesterday?
[00:48:22] Jolene: oh my gosh. I don't want tattoos, so I guess I'm gonna go, I'm gonna be a comma, comma comea come comma chae
[00:48:30] Nicole: Oh, nice, nice, nice. I think you're choosing that because you don't want the story of your life to be tattooed all over your body all
[00:48:40] the time. You're like, I can't do that thing because it's gonna be on my arm tomorrow.
[00:48:45] Jolene: I'd never get to put a swimsuit on.
[00:48:47] I'd have to move to Alaska and only wear turtlenecks and lung
[00:48:50] Nicole: but you'd still have like stories on your forehead and stuff.
[00:48:54] Jolene: oh gosh.
[00:48:55] Nicole: Yeah, it's everywhere.
[00:48:56] Jolene: okay. Would you [00:49:00] rather
[00:49:00] never be able to eat?
[00:49:04] Nicole: you love these questions.
[00:49:09] Jolene: Would you rather never be able to eat solid food ever again
[00:49:17] Nicole: okay.
[00:49:18] Jolene: Or would you rather, only eat extremely spicy food for the rest of your life?
[00:49:27] Nicole: Extremely spicy.
[00:49:29] Jolene: Do you like spicy? I like, like super spicy.
[00:49:32] Nicole: I do. We went to Thailand, and they were like spicy, you know, and they think Americans are so
[00:49:41] Jolene: wimpy.
[00:49:41] Nicole: wimpy. And we're like, yeah. And then we come back to New York and we love Thai food and they're like, like kind of spicy. We're like, no Real spicy. Yeah. I love, I love spicy.
[00:49:55] Jolene: Do you have stomach problems? No. Oh, God. Get heart burden [00:50:00] and Yes. Do you not?
[00:50:02] Nicole: Mm.
[00:50:03] I love it. t's my favorite. Vietnamese. Spicy. Spicy. There were a couple times in Thailand that my, my tongue went numb.
[00:50:12] Jolene: oh my gosh.
[00:50:13] Nicole: Yeah. 'cause it's that spicy and you're like, whoa, that's not the most fun. But absolutely, I don't wanna just have baby food. 'cause also if you, your teeth fall out, if you don't have solid food, your teeth fall out and I wanna keep my teeth.
[00:50:33] Did you know that?
[00:50:34] Jolene: I did not know
[00:50:34] Nicole: Yeah. You, you gotta, chew a lot. Otherwise, your teeth, they start to fall out. No, thank you. I have, I have dreams about that. I don't like that.
[00:50:44] Jolene: Oh my gosh.
[00:50:45] Nicole: Thanks for listening.
[00:50:47] Jolene: Comment, I mean, I would love to hear like thoughtful comments, not stupid comments,
[00:50:53] Nicole: That would be nice. Thoughtful. Thoughtful.
[00:50:55] Jolene: like, where do we start? I, I'd like to know where do you, like, how do
[00:50:58] we
[00:50:59] Nicole: can we do [00:51:00]
[00:51:00] Totally. And I like that we're even talking that way.
[00:51:04] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:51:04] Nicole: Right.
[00:51:05]
