Presidential Pardoning Power
Should the President of the United States hold the power to grant pardons?
In our latest podcast episode, we tackled this burning question, particularly focusing on the pardons issued by Trump related to the January 6th Storming of the Capitol event. Should such pardons be allowed, and do they hold ethical ground?
Examining Pardons: Trump vs. Biden
During our discussion, we explored the ramifications of pardons issued by Trump and Biden. Jolene raised an important point about Biden's preemptive pardons aimed at protecting individuals involved in January 6th based on fear of future retaliation from Trump and his constituents. Meanwhile, Trump's broad forgiveness for those who assaulted law enforcement officers during the insurrection strikes as both confusing and deeply concerning.
Can advocating for "Blue Lives Matter" coexist with pardoning those who threaten them? These actions lead us to question if presidential pardoning power requires oversight or limitations, ensuring it's not wielded unilaterally.
The Ethical Debate
We delved into the ethical considerations surrounding these pardons. While there is constitutional authority for this power, both personal fear and political rivalry appeared to drive recent decisions.
Are such motives ethically justifiable?
Nicole likened the situation to a competitive, somewhat juvenile stand-off between two leaders, each trying to outdo the other at the expense of national interest.
Is this the image we want for presidential decision-making?
Additionally, the repercussions of these pardons on our justice system and societal values are complicated and require a lot of deep discussion.
Seeing the Bigger Picture: Media Consumption and Political Perspectives
Understanding both sides of the political aisle is so important in dissecting issues like presidential pardoning. Both of us have started following media from the other side of the aisle, so that we’re aware of what the other side is consuming. This is giving us a broader picture of the political landscape and the biases that exist. Whether you lean left or right, knowledge of the opposing viewpoint strengthens your arguments and fosters informed discussions. We shared several media recommendations that we’ve included in the resources section of this article, encouraging exploration beyond one's echo chambers.
Ultimately, we're striving for a more balanced approach to political discourse, one that rises above tit-for-tat tactics. Whether it's reconsidering the parameters of the presidential pardoning power or engaging with a variety of media, critical and ethical evaluation from all sides can lead to more fruitful, less divided conversations about our nation's future.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Tangle: https://www.readtangle.com/
Free Press: https://www.thefp.com/
404 Media: https://www.404media.co/
Status News: https://www.status.news/
LINKS:
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Nicole: [00:00:00] Well, hello, Jolene
Jolene: Wow. Hello Nicole. Look at you in the, in the closet.
Nicole: in the closet. I am in the New York City husband's closet, which is where I do actually all my work. Uh, and my, when I set this up, it was pre pandemic actually, and then the pandemic hit, and then this became my office. Um, every engineer is like, don't touch it. Don't move anything. And it's really unusual to have an, an interior closet in a New
York City apartment.
Jolene: Ah,
Nicole: To have it quiet in New York City, no window, no nothing. So here we are.
We wanted to talk about the pardons, the Trump pardons and the Biden pardons. Is that correct, Jolene?
Jolene: Yes, that is correct.
Nicole: not to throw it on you, but I'm gonna throw it on you.
Jolene: Go ahead,
Nicole: why don't you start this off and start with, uh, your knee jerk [00:01:00] reactions to, uh, the Trump pardons. Do we wanna start with Trump and go to Biden or vice versa? It's, it's your call.
Jolene: it's funny that they're both related because, so, you know, Biden in his last day in office, you know, did this, the sweeping, , anybody that was associated with January 6th and for like a preemptive, , pardoning because his fear was that Trump was gonna go after all of them.
And so he, he does this preemptive, I mean, uh, this is actually, you know, after the whole Hunter Biden, his sister, his sister-in-law, his brother, his, I mean, that's a whole nother thing. and then the next day, then you have Trump who says, great, I'll do one better. And I'm just gonna get everybody associated with J six done outta here.
, my knee jerk [00:02:00] reaction is that Biden overstepped his authority, then we have to talk about what, what the authority of that pardoning power is for the, for the president. I mean, is that something that we really need to take a look at and go, do you really have the ultimate authority and, and power to do something like that?
Because you can, and no one needs to authorize it. like it's done. That's the final say. and then when Trump does that, I, I have a real problem honestly, with, the way that he did A blanket Pardon? Of people that assaulted a police officer. it's almost like he's talking out of both sides of his mouth because you can't take the stance on, you know, blue Lives Matter and, um, and all that.
And then these were people that were assaulting police officers and now you've forgiven them. And now there's two of them who have done it who said, Nope, I don't want your pardon. I'm not, I don't accept it. [00:03:00] I'm gonna stay
Nicole: one? I remember I heard about MAGA grandma, but who was the second one?
Jolene: There's another one who just did it yesterday. But one other thing I will say is that I also think some of them were unfairly prosecuted. it was an overreach on what the charges were that I think the, the January 6th committee overstepped, uh, some of the, the convictions or the, the accusations.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Jolene: Okay. What's your knee-jerk reaction?
Nicole: it's going to maybe be surprising, but I am in almost complete agreement with you.
Jolene: I love it.
Nicole: I do too. I've been thinking so much about this I am very disappointed in the last year of Biden's presidency. I think he did some very good things. in the first couple years. I think he's lost his way and I think he got swept up in the, adolescent [00:04:00] behavior that has, has now become the norm. in our, uh, political landscape, I wanna backtrack a second, but seeing that horrible debate with Trump and Biden, where they came out as, quite frankly, two little old men. I know Trump doesn't wanna, he's a little old man too, to Biden at that point, not nearly as frail, but when Biden screamed, you are a loser.
I was like, we are done. Like this is, this is completely ludicrous. And I bring up that moment because it reminds me of the pardons but I read an article, I wanna say two years ago about, soccer, but in Europe. And they were, they did this experiment, and I think it was in Britain, it could have been in Spain. [00:05:00] I'll have to look it up again. But there's a lot of, uh, fighting and violence in the crowds of a soccer game, a u European soccer game. And they found, they did an experiment where they had tons of police, tons of security, and more and more fights broke out. And then
when they took the security away, there wasn't any fighting. So I bring this up I know, please bear with me. In my crazy reasoning, when I look at the pardons and I understand some of the preemptive, you know, fauci, there, there are some serious threats that maybe Trump didn't, but his followers are are, and they've already, we've already seen with some of the January 6th people, they take things too far. And so Biden probably had some real fear for [00:06:00] some of his family members, for some, I get it. that being said, when you start, I'm gonna do like, it's from this panicked, like,
well have to protect myself. You're just poking the bear.
And Trump was like, well, uh, like you said, I can do one better. And so
I'm look at these two little old men who are like, you are a loser.
No, you're a loser. I'm gonna one up you, I'm gonna one up you. And all of a sudden we're looking at these pardons and going, what the fuck you guys, this is our country. What are you doing?
And I am in a hundred percent agreement with the January Sixers, the people that assaulted and that eventually killed. There were five police officers, I found their names, several, protestors that died. This was a horrible day. And those people that actually committed violence against [00:07:00] other people and other cops should not be let out. If there was someone that was caught up in excitement and walked in. Maybe they shouldn't be still in jail. and what I thought I heard was that Trump had originally said it will be a case by case basis.
Jolene: Mm-hmm.
Nicole: And then Biden says, you know, puts up his preemptive, I'm scared, this is what I'm gonna do, so you can't screw us. Trump. And he and Trump is just like, watch me,
Jolene: Yeah,
Nicole: right? And so all of a sudden everyone's free. And immediately the guy that wore the horns,
Jolene: Mm-hmm.
Nicole: he's like, let me, let's go buy some motherfucking guns. That was his first tweet. And you're like, Hmm, huh.
Jolene: my only hesitation with what you said well, it's not a hesitation. [00:08:00] when you talk about the amount of people that died. I think that right there is controversial because no one was ever accused of, attempted murder because I don't think they attributed any of the deaths with the exception of the, Babbitt getting shot.
Nicole: And
Brian Sick, the first officer that was killed,
Jolene: he actually died of a heart attack, right? Or stroke. Yeah.
Nicole: but he's a, he was a young person.
Jolene: I mean, that in itself is controversial.
Nicole: tell me more about that. Why you think that,
Jolene: I think it was his mother or his wife who said. I mean, come on. He had the strokes after the protest. I mean, it's like a, a cause and effect. Would he have, had the strokes, had the, had he not had to deal with the, with the protestors and, you know, threatening his life and feeling like he was, you know, putting his life on the line to protect the capitol, that was his job.
Would [00:09:00] that have happened had they not prote? I mean, so who's to say, right? Do you not feel like that?
Nicole: I don't, , these poor capitol policemen who were completely outnumbered, were, who had been really proud to be capitol policemen. And then there was this day that was, they were completely outnumbered and they were doing their job. And as you said, this party is supposedly pro police was ready to hurt them. If not, kill them. If a man is using a stun gun to the neck of an officer, that's to hurt him or kill him. I guess to me it feels like semantics almost when it's like, well, what killed them? Because it's like a, a thinking about like back before our time, if people were in battle and maybe they got shot [00:10:00] or their arms were broken or whatever, and then they died a day later, like were deciding, well, that's not what killed him. I would hope that we could acknowledge that it was a horrible day that we don't want to repeat.
Jolene: A hundred percent. Yes, completely agree. There are no positives that came out of that day. A hundred percent.
Nicole: there, but it seems like there's a ton of, I mean, people, they're just bowing down now, like everyone's kissing the ring
Jolene: so I also think, though, if you take a look at some of the, , other stories that aren't just the main, what we've heard in the mainstream media and the, and the reason that I think Biden pardoned , the committee number one, the, the January 6th congressional committee was made up. There were no Republicans, I'm sorry, [00:11:00] except for Adam Kinzinger and, and, um,
Nicole: Liz.
Jolene: your friend Liz, that, that made up that committee.
Because the Republicans knew that it was going to be a one-sided, , argument. Adam Kininger and, and Liz Cheney were the only ones that were, and was Adam Kininger on the committee? I'm not sure. He was on the, he was on the,
Nicole: the,
committee
they had a list of other proposed, like Jim Jordan, very far right. People, and they said, no,
we don't want them on.
Jolene: So
Nicole: probably a mistake,
Jolene: Yeah. right? Because it couldn't be taken seriously by the Right.
right. So at that point you go, well, that's probably, it wasn't a fair hearing there were things that were, that were probably missed or, or one-sided.
Nicole: did you watch any of it? Jolene?
Jolene: I feel like I did, I, again, my God, that was four years ago. I'm not sure. I, I feel like I did. I.
Nicole: because I mean, I, I was [00:12:00] glued to it, but it seemed like most Republicans were not watching it for that exact reason.
Jolene: That they knew
it was gonna be biased. Yeah,
Nicole: well, or that they didn't feel represented? I don't think that they knew it was gonna be biased. They knew, they didn't feel represented.
They didn't feel, because there is a small group of right wingers that have gotten a lot of power and everyone seems to be quite afraid to, go against them.
Jolene: expand on that.
Nicole: it seemed that, you know Jim Jordan and Mike Johnson and, I'm blanking out on some of the guys' names. Um, but there's a small group of, at the time, senators Marjorie Taylor Greene that would, uh, filibuster that everything was a it, everything was a no. Everything was a no. and the January 6th [00:13:00] committee, first of all, they took too long. part of the problem that we're here is that everything is taking too long. So it's really easy to start changing the narrative people are, too busy, too lazy, too tired, too stressed out. They don't have the attention span. Like if the, if the January 6th committee, if they got a, group of people and maybe even a couple of the right wingers on the committee so that it was a more balanced, ideological committee and they started immediately. And of course it takes time to get, um. You know, evidence, but it, it could have at least felt more fair.
Jolene: Mm-hmm.
Nicole: I know Pelosi was like, absolutely not. These people are not on, which
Jolene: Yeah.
Nicole: I could see your side
and say, well, that doesn't seem quite balanced.
Jolene: Yeah. So I think part of the arguments though are [00:14:00] not all the footage Was available for that committee to decipher. I am not justifying anything that happened that that was a horrible event.
It shouldn't have happened. there was nothing right about that. so I mean, don't, don't think that I'm justifying it for a minute.
Nicole: Are you in agreement with me about that those that caused violence to the police officers should not have been pardoned?
Jolene: Absolutely. Yeah, that I said that at the very
Nicole: Yeah. I
Jolene: that, if you, yes, 100%. Yep. You, I don't, you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth and honor Blue Lives matter and all of that. And then say, but except for you guys.
Nicole: did you hear that clip where, a reporter asked him, well, do you believe that it's okay to have violence against police officers? And he says, no. [00:15:00] And then he says, well then why did you, pardon? and he was like, well, we don't know what they did and we don't know what everyone does. And, you know, there are murderers like there, people get murdered all the time and they don't get, uh, caught.
And I'm like, whoa. So did you hear that one? That wasn't the best reenactment of that clip, by the way.
Jolene: Uh, no. I think, yes, I think I did. If I did, I skim. That's the kind of shit that I skim over because I'm just like, uh, why do you say stuff like that? And so I, I, you know, I don't dive into that. That's like one of those things that you go, Ugh, why, [00:16:00] is there anything that surprised you about what I am saying
well, that you agreed that, maybe they were overcharged some of
Nicole: I think some of them, these people that were, these senators, the Congress people, they were terrified and they were under an enormous amount of tr I mean, they're in such trauma and then they say, we need to hold everyone accountable. And then you would hear these stories of, I, I, I thought he was a cool guy, and I came to DC and I got caught up in things and, and they were in the back.
I'm just giving everyone of the benefit of the doubt here that not all 1500 walked in there. With a stun gun.
I think some did.
Jolene: Right,
Nicole: had who, you had nooses hanging. You had proud boys. You had like a bunch of, as they say, bad actors,
bunch [00:17:00] of bad dudes who had serious bad motivation.
Then you had people that got caught up in the excitement in the, I've never been to DC before. I've never seen the president, and if they're, let's say it's, it was an enormous crowd of people.
They're in the back. They might not even see what's going on, and they got in, they might have got in and went, holy shit. What's happening in here? I, I'm just thinking of a whole human experience. Right.
Jolene: yeah. No, and, and I actually know of someone in that instance. In fact, they didn't even know when they, they marched down to the capitol from wherever they were prior to the, for the rally. And she said, yeah, let's go. Let's go March in front of the capitol. did that for a little while and then went back to her hotel room, didn't know about the people breaking the windows and the violence and all that, because she went back to her hotel room and she [00:18:00] was like, eh, okay.
We've done this. We've done our part. And then she was like, oh shit. We really missed out on all the action.
Nicole: there is a known fact of mob mentality. Like you can cut out, get caught up in something and not always realize what you're doing,
Jolene: Yeah.
Oh,
Nicole: you might go, oh my God, what is happening here?
I don't wanna be a part of this. And they get the same sentence that,
Yeah, So of course
Jolene: do you think that, Nancy Pelosi had the authority and the ability to call in the National Guard and did not do it intentionally? She wanted this to escalate into something like this.
and the reason I ask is that that is one of the theories that is out there is that she was told that there was going to be this huge event that they were going to try, you know, the whole, there was the impetus of, of [00:19:00] getting Mike Pence to not, , you know, authorize the, or validate the, the vote, ratify the vote, and that, um, they knew there was the protest going on and, and she was told probably a good idea to not leave this in the hands of Capitol police.
And she refused used. Do you believe that to be true?
Nicole: did she call the National Guard as it was happening or did she call the National Guard before it started?
Jolene: She did not call them before it started, and that, that's part of the argument is that if you were real, if she was truly concerned for this, why wouldn't she have called the National Guard in knowing that the only protection given at that point were the Capitol police?
Nicole: I don't know. I mean, there had been no precedent. I don't think we ever in a million years thought that this would happen. my weird theory at the beginning of this about sometimes when you add security, when you create
you present a threat, [00:20:00] people get heightened and they get more
aggressive.
Maybe that was the reasoning behind it. I don't know. But we, but truly no one, none of us could have ever, except for the people that, that stormed the capitol. we're not reading what they're reading.
Jolene: , let me ask you, give me two, one or two things that you. Would want a conservative or a Republican to follow
Nicole: I'm super excited about this because I have a couple, if that's okay.
It was on WNYC this morning. Uh, there was a, news report about how, uh, CNNI think his name is, Mark Thompson. He's the CEO, that, there's a little bit of knee bending going on or kissing the ring going on.
And so a lot of the legacy media is, there's a lot of fear after this last week and people don't wanna push back. They don't wanna question [00:21:00] and. At the end of this article or this news story, this man was like, there are some really fantastic independent news organizations. This is the positive coming out of all this crazy is that everyone's reacting, right, conservative, liberal, they're all reacting right now.
There's so much fire throwing happening this week and some things that are really gonna hurt this country. Some things that might help this country, but everyone's reacting. And he said the positive thing is that there are some independent news agencies being born because of this. And so I was
Jolene: Yes.
Nicole: excited because you had talked about you wanted to share, Hey, let's share some resources for people, um, that we can all investigate together.
Whether you're a liberal or a conservative, we can talk about it.
Um, and so that was super exciting. So the one I, you know, as I've said several, many, so many times, tangle.
Jolene: [00:22:00] Yes,
Nicole: tangle
Uh, the Instagram handle, I looked it up, is T-A-N-G-L-E News, tan News. Isaac, Saul and his team love you guys. You guys are amazing.
They talk about the left, they do a news story, they talk about the left, they talk about the right, and then they talk about their own take and it's so fantastic.
Jolene: and he's on paternity leave right
now. And did you read that article of, of like, he had no intention of, he was like, I'm having a baby and how his life has just absolutely been rocked. Um, and he's like, Nope, I'm checking out for a
month. I love it.
Nicole: It's his first baby. First first child. And
he is having a, he had a boy and it's so sweet.
And he now finally has a team after five years that he can trust and,
and, and he can just enjoy this new chapter, which is
really cool. Right. I love it. I love it. So these ones, [00:23:00] these are recommendations that, um, I'm super excited to start looking at. Uh, one is called 4 0 4 oh. This is the Instagram handle. There's also a website, but I'm just giving the Instagram handles 404 media co, M-E-D-I-A-C-O. And it is an independent, , news. company that's, uh, based on the tech world, which I think right now is wildly important considering all these tech moguls are, are bending the knee and it's time to start really understanding, which I know nothing about what's going on in that world from an in an independent lens.
And the last one, and this was the man, uh, that was being interviewed. He has a newsletter called Status and his handle on Instagram is get status, GE tco, S-T-A-T-U-S. And I think at this point it's a newsletter. I [00:24:00] don't know much about it, but it's another independent news source for, , conservatives, liberals for us all to check out and examine and question and talk about it.
Jolene: Mine is the free press. I love the free press. I think they are fantastic. it is run by Bari Weiss, who she is brilliantly smart. , I love everything that she does, , but unbiased and her wife again, another one, they just had a baby and her wife has come back, um, from maternity leave and is great.
So I think, and this is just me reading, I think, Barry is probably more conservative and her wife is a little more liberal. And so, um, the two of them, it's just, I think it's, I, I think that's the dynamic. And I could be wrong,
Nicole: and she's a reporter.
Jolene: yes. That's her background.
I think they're, they're kind of a large organization. , I say 20 people, like larger than 20 people. But I think they're pretty evenly [00:25:00] divided because they did a poll like after the election of who voted for whom, and they were really evenly split.
So that's, you know, that's another good thing.
Nicole: Yes. I can't speak to the last two that I suggested, but Tangled is the same thing.
They have a totally even team, which I think is great because then
we can just have, we, like I'm part of their team.
Sorry, tangle. That we can, That right. That we can, have like honest, kind, considerate, thoughtful dialogue,
which is what we wanted to do.
Right?
Jolene: Yep. Totally.
okay, so here's the last one, though. I know this is good as sound. It's gonna be a little cray cray for you.
Nicole: Craig. Craig. Go. I.
Jolene: the three people that I love following on X, formerly known as Twitter, is Chuck Schumer, A OC and Nancy Pelosi. And if you are a conservative and you are not following those people, how do you, how the hell do you know what [00:26:00] they're saying?
And, and so I would say for liberals as well, do the same thing.
Nicole: I love you so much. I seriously do. I I love you so much. I I You are. I just do You are such an open, I, I'm so grateful, honestly, like, first of all, I don't, here's the thing. I never ever saw Twitter, and I certainly don't look at x. I'm curious about something, and I'm willing to look at the other side.
Have you heard of Blue Sky? I hear that that is it's a newer platform. It's like a Twitter or an X, it's independent. Uh, I know this is a bad word. It's a woman owned.
Jolene: that is not a bad word. I'm a
woman owned
Nicole: I, I mean, listen, it's not a bad word to me. It's not a bad word to you, but this is a whole other conversation about the DEI rollbacks and all of that stuff.
Jolene: Yeah.
Nicole: but, um, maybe we can like look [00:27:00] into Blue Sky as well, because what I'm a little concerned about, and I guess we should be looking at all of the things because they're, they're, in bed with the big man right now is, is trying to find unbiased, , sources. , and Blue Sky is supposedly totally independent.
So you follow a OC Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi.
Jolene: I do, I do I think it only makes you stronger If you can validate your thoughts against theirs, then I mean that, that makes your argument stronger. If you don't know what the hell the other side's saying, how can you formulate your own thoughts or go, huh.
Here's how I feel about
Nicole: right, like I said, I don't, I don't watch Fox, but I'm gonna start,
Jolene: are you really
Nicole: course I am, because I have to understand what you're seeing.
Jolene: Okay. Can I, can I tell you this though? I don't watch, like, I don't watch Fox and Friends in the Morning. The, that's their morning show. , for me, it [00:28:00] goes until, I don't know what
Nicole: What do you wa, what do you
watch?
Jolene: I love Bill Hemmer and Dana Perino. They come on at eight o'clock central time,
Nicole: Okay. I.
Jolene: and so I usually only get to watch.
Like 15 minutes or 20 minutes of them in the mornings. But I kinda get their headlines, which I love, because they're news. I don't watch anything at night. The all the fox stuff at night, because again, I think that's, it's really biased. It's entertainment, it's pundit, it's a political pundit.
So I just, I don't think that you're getting, you're not getting news at that point.
Nicole: I I'm gonna start with those recommendations for everyone and for you because, believe it or not, I don't follow left stuff. I followed a OC for a little bit, and then I stopped my
nieces follow her,
just because, I mean, listen, I like her. And we discussed before love her red lipstick. , and I just love that she's [00:29:00] outspoken and not afraid, and that's really
appealing and exciting that someone's willing to have those balls like you felt about. So, but I don't
have anyone super left for me to say, Hey, Jolene, and you're already following them. So there you go.
Jolene: I do like Dana Perino,
Nicole: Yes, I wrote her
Jolene: she would be one. Yeah. You know, she was Bush's, um, press Secretary, George Bush's.
Nicole: Oh, thank you. I wouldn't know that because I, I didn't know those things.
Jolene: I just love smart women.
Nicole: I do too. We have that in common,
Jolene: Yeah.
Nicole: right?
Jolene: . Would you rather go to the Super Bowl or to the World Series?
Wow.
Nicole: No, that's not true. I, let me, let me, that's actually not true. I would totally go to the Super Bowl and I'd go for the halftime show.[00:30:00]
'cause even in all my years of not watching the Super Bowl, I do usually watch the halftime show.
'cause they're
Jolene: Okay.
Nicole: great.
They're usually great,
prince was the best. He was the
Jolene: oh my gosh.
Nicole: was the best. I loved him so much. And I have to say, like I didn't have any feelings about Justin Timberlake. And then I saw him play the Super Bowl and he was so fun that we actually, Josh surprised me one birthday. I know. This is crazy. He surprised me and took me to Berlin for the weekend.
Jolene: Oh God, I do
Nicole: it was one of the best trips ever. And in this weekend, we saw Justin Timberlake.
Neither of us are oh, but we had seen the Super Bowl and we were like, that looks like a fun show.
And we, it was great. we, had, we had so much fun and it's so much fun to go to a concert in a different country.
Jolene: ' so my friend Jen went to go see Taylor Swift in Germany, and, and the same thing, you know, like when there's [00:31:00] a language barrier there, but you all speak Taylor Swift like that.
It's just, it was,
Nicole: I, I wish I'd seen her. Did you get to see her on
tour? Are you a fan?
Jolene: I'm not a fan, but I do like her,
Nicole: the couple records that she had, during the pandemic and I just all of a sudden fell in love with her. I loved her as a writer. I loved her as a singer. I loved her. I was like, who is this? I mean, 'cause I was too old when she first came out.
It was sort
of teeny boppy, like
your kids would listen to it. But
now I'm like, you were a force and you're interesting. And Josh listens and goes, sounds like she's just singing her diary. I'm like, yeah.
And it's great
'cause you feel, you feel connected, you feel like you understand. Like, I've been through those things and
it's pretty cool.
Okay.
Jolene: she's brilliant.
Nicole: Would you rather go on a morning walk with Rover, your dog and,
Jolene: away, by the way. He did. I'm [00:32:00] so sorry to tell you now.
Oh God. I'm so sorry.
Nicole: this took a turn. This took a turn.
Jolene: Oh, God. Okay. But, but keep going with it. I like
Nicole: When the, when did that happen?
Jolene: Oh gosh. Like, um,
Nicole: It must
Jolene: it hasn't, it hasn't, yeah. It hasn't been a year yet, but it was when we were still living in Arkansas. Oh my God. It was the hor it was horrible. It was the hardest thing. He was just, he was so old and it was time, and it was the most horrible thing Jeff and I have ever had to do.
Yeah.
Nicole: Oh,
Jolene: It was horrible. Okay. But go on. Because I still, I, you know, I still love him and, um, we talk about him
often, so.
Nicole: and, and one of my favorite things is that, uh, one of your dibble dough, dibble dough is hurt snack company that we haven't talked about yet. But if you like it, a sweet indulgent treat,
go to your, uh, [00:33:00] refrigerated section on any convenience store and most markets, and you will find my dear friend Jolene's Dibble Dough.
Jolene: oh my gosh, that is like, that sounded like a commercial right there. I love
Nicole: well, that's kind of what I do, but it's, you like, and you have all different flavors and I'm really, really proud of you. And, but one of
your snippets was you were walking Rover recently. You showed it to
Jolene: Oh, he
Nicole: was alive.
Jolene: that was Callie's dog. Nola.
Nicole: okay. Wow.
Jolene: So, but I'm with you. Okay. So you could say, I was taking Nola. My, would we, would you rather Could be, I could be walking Nola.
Nicole: Nola is in New Orleans.
That's so sweet.
Okay. You are going to take a walk with an alive dog in your life.
Jolene: Yes, yes. Okay.
Nicole: Okay.
With Rachel Maddow
Jolene: Oh, go. [00:34:00] Okay.
Nicole: Joy Reed?
Jolene: Oh, go. I,
Nicole: I'm getting a little better. Come on.
Jolene: no, that is, no, that's actually a good one. No, that's a good
one. you, ma'am.
Nicole: Except for the dead dog part.
Jolene: Except for the dead dog part.
Nicole: You're taking a walk with an alive dog and one of these
very brilliant, seriously left-leaning ladies,
Jolene: I'm going with Rachel just 'cause I feel like she's in better shape, she's, the walk is gonna be better.
Nicole: you don't
wanna ask her any questions.
Jolene: I, I, oh hell yes. I'd have to come up with, with questions Because she's a strong woman who's, , a smart business woman, obviously. I mean, , to get where she is. So, yeah, I'd have lots to talk to her about.
Nicole: well that's all I got for you.
Jolene: That's a good one. That was a good one,
Nicole: Thank you. [00:35:00]
