David French: How America Will Recover
Jolene and I knew we had to get David French on the show the exact second we finished reading his article in The New York Times, The Fire of Stupidity That Cannot Be Contained. It was one of those rare, arresting pieces of writing that stops you completely in your tracks because it articulates the exact background noise of anxiety we have all been feeling but haven't known how to name.
We felt an urgent need to have this conversation right now, because our public square is burning down and someone needs to explain why we are in the great forgetting before we repeat the darkest chapters of our past. David is a constitutional lawyer, co-host of the Advisory Opinions podcast, founder of the conservative media company, The Dispatch and an opinion columnist for The New York Times who has spent his life navigating the worlds of the military, ministry, and the law, making him uniquely qualified to hold up a mirror to our fractured culture.
The concept that gripped us most is what David calls the Great Forgetting. If you scan the headlines right now, it looks like we are actively flirting with massive societal mistakes that the world discredited in the relatively recent past. We are watching younger generations express casual favorability toward communism or look at internet fascism as a cute aesthetic. Antisemitism is skyrocketing, land wars have returned to Europe, and a dangerous "spoils system" is creeping back into how our government functions.
David’s core thesis here is simple. We are doing this because the generations of human beings who actually lived through the horrors of the 20th century are passing away. Education is failing to fill the gap where living experience ends. Like the biblical Pharaoh who arose and "knew not Joseph," we now have a landscape of leaders and citizens who know not world wars.
"We're flirting with a lot of movements, ideas, and actions that have been recently discredited because the people doing the flirting have no personal experience with the consequences."
This historical amnesia gets amplified by the way we fight our culture wars. For the combatants on the extreme right and left, history has ceased to be an end in itself. They do not study the past to accumulate knowledge, wisdom, or self-correction. Instead, they treat history as a blunt weapon to achieve an immediate ideological outcome where their side wins and the other side gets erased.
When we were growing up, we had tangible contact with World War II veterans, civil rights trailblazers, and Holocaust survivors. Today, that living tissue is fading, and the loudest voices are stepping into the vacuum to manipulate the narrative.
Nicole and Jolene find ourselves screaming at the screen from completely different sides of the aisle when looking at modern candidates like the pugilistic Democrat Graham Platner or the corrupt, weaponized MAGA style of Ken Paxton. The fringes select the meanest, toughest actors in the primaries, and then force the broader electorate to carry them across the finish line.
Something that David said that really stuck with us was this: supporting corrupt or cruel leaders changes the voter far more than it changes the politician. He is so right and it’s disheartening to see it happening right now. Over time, institutions and movements take on the exact moral character of their leaders.
The way out of this trap is not forcing everyone to shift their ideological worldviews. People hold their core values deeply, and asking them to abandon those beliefs is an impossible lift.
Instead, the solution lies in a return to “temperamental moderation”, as David puts it. This does not mean sitting safely in the center of the fence on every policy issue. It means being open, listening to alternative thoughts, treating opponents with basic manners, and refusing to automatically attribute bad character to someone simply because they disagree with you.
If we can start rewarding politicians like James Talarico or Susan Collins, who practice kindness and independent thought while maintaining their actual convictions, we might just signal that the era of the professional internet antagonist is over. The shadow of our current polarization is a passing thing, but we have to start practicing the basic decency required to let the light back in.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
David’s Podcast: https://thedispatch.com/podcast/advisoryopinions/
More In Common: https://moreincommonus.com/
Brad Porteus: https://www.bridgegrades.org/
David’s Good For The Soul: The Return of the King by J.R.R. Tolkien
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61215384-the-return-of-the-king
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[00:00:00] nicole: She's conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money, and we say that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head but are too scared to say out loud. Welcome to We've Got to Talk. Welcome Jolene, and welcome Mr. David French
[00:00:26] Jolene: If you are not familiar with David French because you've been living under a rock, he is an opinion columnist for The New York Times. He helped create the conservative news media company, The Dispatch. He is co-host of the Advisory Opinions podcast, and he's a constitutional lawyer. I mean, what have you not done?
[00:00:47] nicole: That is true
[00:00:47] Jolene: Thank you for being here.
[00:00:49] David French: Thank you so much for having me. And I, I used to say I've done everything in the practice of law except be a judge or a divorce attorney, and then I remember, oh, I did actually help somebody get a divorce [00:01:00] years and years and years ago. So
[00:01:02] Jolene: Okay.
[00:01:03] David French: I've done almost everything in the practice of law
[00:01:06] nicole: That's amazing. Um, so for those of us in the audience that aren't familiar with you, you have such an wildly diverse background, a super interesting background. Can you please explain? You didn't start as a New York Times columnist, right? You,
[00:01:22] David French: No
[00:01:22] nicole: can we start with where you were born even?
[00:01:27] David French: Sure. So I was born in Opelika, Alabama, which is a little town right outside of Auburn and where Auburn University is. So I was born to an Auburn grad student, Auburn undergrad. Uh, so my mom was a, was an Auburn undergrad, my dad was an Au- uh, Auburn grad student. And so I grew up, uh, in the South. I grew up in Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee, and Kentucky.
[00:01:50] So I like to say that, um, I came co- I come by my Southeastern Conference fandom very honestly. And, [00:02:00] and I also grew up in a very conservative church. Um, as my friend Cherie Harder from the Trinity Forum says, "We did not put the fun in fundamentalism." Uh, so I grew up in a very conservative church, went to a, a very conservative Christian school, uh, and really, you know, honestly grew up without a thought in my head about being a lawyer.
[00:02:24] Like, I just had no conception of that. And I'll tell you what I wanted to be: a fighter pilot
[00:02:31] nicole: Oh, wow
[00:02:33] David French: a very sophisticated reason. Uh, I'd seen the original Top Gun, and it looked really, it looked really cool. Like, who wouldn't wanna do that? And, uh, but I just... It, it didn't work out. Uh, my eyes weren't good enough for it.
[00:02:47] Like, it just didn't work out. So I'm, I'm getting towards the end of my college career with a political science degree from a small college in the South, and I didn't have really a plan. [00:03:00] So I did what a whole, what generations of young Americans have done who have no plan. We went to law school.
[00:03:07] nicole: That's fair
[00:03:07] David French: And so that, that's what I did because, you know, I needed career options and, and when I got to law school, I really...
[00:03:16] It, it was kind of like, uh... You remember there's this lyric from, uh, Rocky Mountain High, John Denver,
[00:03:21] nicole: Uh-huh
[00:03:22] David French: was coming home to a place I'd never been before?
[00:03:25] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:26] David French: by the way, what an evocative lyric. Like, it's, it's so evocative of, like, landing in a place where you feel like you were destined to be, right?
[00:03:35] And that's how I felt with law school. I felt like it was coming home to a place I'd never been before, and this is what I was supposed to do. And then that launched a, a legal career that just ki- had lots of twists and turns and zigs and zags over the years. And, and I used to feel kind of weird about that.
[00:03:52] Like, " David, why don't, why can't you figure out what you wanna do when you grow up? Like, why, you know, why are you [00:04:00] always, like, looking to the next in- the interesting thing to do?" And then as I got older, I realized that all of those different experiences were a gift That in the moment I was sort of like
[00:04:10] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:11] David French: for the thing, and then as I got older, I realized that the variability of my experiences was just a very important part of my development.
[00:04:20] And so, so, uh, I, I, I was a practicing lawyer, constitutional attorney, uh, JAG officer in the Army Reserve, and I did that from, for twenty-one years. And,
[00:04:32] nicole: that's
[00:04:33] David French: not that...
[00:04:34] nicole: that's not
[00:04:34] David French: Yeah.
[00:04:35] nicole: part, 'cause I
[00:04:36] David French: Yeah
[00:04:37] nicole: a Bronze Star too
[00:04:39] David French: I, for my, for my service in Iraq in, in '07 and '08, and
[00:04:43] nicole: nothing, sir.
[00:04:44] David French: that that was, that was, uh... I was an, an army attorney for 21 years. I did that for eight years in the s- sandwiched in that, and I joined later in life.
[00:04:55] I, I actually went to officer basic training at Fort Lee, uh, in [00:05:00] Virginia when I I was 37 years old, and Let's just say I was not setting the world on fire physically. Uh, but I made it through. I made it through. So I did a lot of different things, but in 2015, I, I had been doing a lot of writing on the side more, and more, and more, and more, and I reached this really kinda interesting point where I had to decide was I gonna continue to be a lawyer, uh, with this big writing hobby, or was I gonna really dive into writing?
[00:05:29] And so I decided to dive into writing, and in May of 2015, I joined National Review, conservative magazine. And in June of 2016, Trump comes down the escalator to announce his campaign,
[00:05:41] nicole: Mm-hmm
[00:05:42] David French: everything changes. Like, the world of journalism is upended. The world of politics is upended, and sort of I've been kinda having a front row seat for that ride, you know, for more than 10 years now
[00:05:53] Jolene: Okay, so y- you, you identify as a Christian,
[00:05:57] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:58] Jolene: a lawyer,
[00:05:59] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:59] Jolene: [00:06:00] a soldier, a journalist.
[00:06:03] David French: Mm-hmm
[00:06:03] Jolene: W- which one do you rely on the most then for your columns?
[00:06:08] David French: Oh, well, it, it, that's easy. I mean, the Christian part of this is, uh, absolutely at the o- at the top. Everything else is just details by comparison. And so, but what I rely on when I write really does depend on what I'm writing about. So, I really confine my writing, although I write about, um, you know, a pretty broad range of topics.
[00:06:31] They... You, you'll actually look, and they generally fall in the category of religion, law, less politics than law. I write more about law than I write about politics, and religion. I mean, uh, religion, law, and then armed conflict, war. and the, the sad reality is that right now in this moment in American history, a lot of our conflicts and a lot of our fights are around religion, they're around law, and we have a rise in armed conflict around the world.
[00:06:59] [00:07:00] So in a lot of ways, just the moment in history is really matching a lot of my experiences. Like, if, if the biggest national crisis was a monetary policy crisis or something like that, That would be an area where I'd have to do a lot of learning fast to have
[00:07:16] Jolene: yeah
[00:07:16] David French: valuable to say at all.
[00:07:18] Or let's say our biggest foreign policy crisis was something involving, say, Argentina. I'd have to really learn a lot fast. But a lot of what's happening is very much in sort of the wheelhouse of what I've spent my entire life and career focusing on
[00:07:34] Jolene: So maybe the next thing is SEC football. I
[00:07:37] David French: Oh,
[00:07:38] Jolene: NIL, is
[00:07:38] David French: oh, I have got,
[00:07:40] Jolene: you
[00:07:40] David French: I have got things to say about that. Uh, no, no question. No question
[00:07:47] Jolene: Oh, that's awesome
[00:07:48] nicole: Did you know that Jolene was a football coach's wife forever?
[00:07:51] David French: I did not know that
[00:07:53] Jolene: college football for 38 years, so, um, he has now retired. Our last job we were at Tulane.[00:08:00]
[00:08:00] David French: Oh, fantastic
[00:08:02] Jolene: now we have three daughters, and our oldest daughter has married a football coach, and he's at South Carolina, so there's your other SEC school that you
[00:08:10] David French: Love it.
[00:08:11] Jolene: Kentucky, LSU
[00:08:12] David French: it. I, I bet we could sit down and talk for about six hours on NIL stuff, 'cause, uh, like I said, I've got thoughts. I've got thoughts about all of that
[00:08:21] Jolene: I, I would love to see you write an article on that because there's just, there's so much
[00:08:26] David French: yeah.
[00:08:27] Jolene: right? I
[00:08:27] David French: Yeah. Oh, it's coming. It's coming. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely
[00:08:34] nicole: Well, speaking of what you're writing, so Jolene and I just read that column, uh, "The Fire of Stupidity That Cannot Be Contained," and that
[00:08:43] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:43] nicole: resonated for both Jolene and myself. And one thing that we've been thinking about is this concept of the Great Forgetting.
[00:08:52] could you explain to our audience what that is,
[00:08:55] what attributes to this?
[00:08:56] Like, we're really fascinated by this
[00:08:59] David French: If you look [00:09:00] around the world right now, you will see not just that we have a lot of divisions and differences, that's very common throughout human history, that we have a lot of challenges, that's again, very common throughout human history. But one thing that is very striking to me is how much we are flirting with many major mistakes that were made in the relatively recent past.
[00:09:24] You know, so we're, we're not talking about ancient history here. So for example, if you're talking about, um, you know, economically at home, we're, we're debating tariffs again, as if that wasn't something in the relatively recent past that we had been through and, and realized the, the, the perils and the dangers.
[00:09:45] Or we're talking-- we're dealing with sort of a revival in, in the executive branch of something that looks a lot like the spoils system. That is some- of, of, of hiring and firing of civil servants that is very much like something [00:10:00] from Amer- again, America's past that we turned away from because it had huge problems.
[00:10:05] You'll get a, you know, again and again, uh, you're, you're seeing about thirty-four percent of young people express favorable opinions of communism. Uh, communism, okay? Then you have a growing movement on sort of part of the young right that's flirting with fascism and actually even Hitler apologetics.
[00:10:23] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:24] David French: And then over this all, over all of it, you have a rise in antisemitism.
[00:10:29] Again, you know, this is something America was never perfect on, but we've long been a haven for the Jewish people. And, and yet we're seeing a rise in hate crimes in this country against, you know, Jewish Americans. It's shocking. And then, as if all of that weren't enough, we've got a land war in Europe.
[00:10:47] Like, we don't have recent experience there as that being horrific, you know? And then, of course, you know, just kind of it's a day ending in Y, so we have massive turmoil in the Middle East. So the-- So y- [00:11:00] you go through each one of these things and, and if you look at it from any sort of historical perspective, you would say, "Why?
[00:11:09] Why are you doing this again?" Like, you know, it's one thing to be discontent with the obvious imperfections of American democracy. I mean, nobody... I am la- the last person to say that, "Man, we got a utopia over here." No. But it's not just that people are discontent with the results of democracy, which is, uh, that's a perennial problem in democracies.
[00:11:38] It's that we're turning to things that have been so recently discredited and as an alt- alternative, and that is, uh, you know... So it's not as if we're saying for, to all, for all too many people that democracy isn't working well, we need to really r- roll up our sleeves and focus on reform. It's much more like, [00:12:00] for some people, democracy isn't working well, oh I see a little fascism over there looking kinda cute, or, or there's some communist.
[00:12:10] Oh, you know, there's... That, that could be idealistic, you know, whatever. or y- you're looking at nation, national competition, and for especially great power competition, and for a generation or two after World War II, there were red lines that, okay, yes, we have a Cold War. Yes, we have competition.
[00:12:29] But one of the things we're... everyone's trying to do they were trying to maximize their national s- greatness or strength or whatever, but without a world war. And, and sort of that, the apparatuses we put together to contain and prevent world wars were so effective that we actually had the collapse of an entire superpower without a world war.
[00:12:51] but a lot of these structures that we've used for, you know, almost 100 years to avoid, you know, 80-plus years to avoid a world [00:13:00] war, we're now discarding. We're just throwing them away. And so, my fundamental sort of thesis is that we're doing this because the generations of people who actually had experience with all of this awfulness are passing away, are leaving the scene, retiring, et cetera.
[00:13:19] Jolene: Hmm
[00:13:21] David French: to use a sort of a biblical analogy, there's this line in, in the scripture that talks about, uh, there arose a Pharaoh or arose a king in E- Egypt who knew not Joseph. In other words, he had no memory of the good things that the Jewish people had done for the kingdom of Egypt. He just saw them as a problem and oppressed them brutally.
[00:13:41] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:13:42] David French: Well, there arose a generation of leaders who knew not world wars. There arose a generation of leaders who knew not about any number of things. And for a lot of us, education isn't filling the gap where experience is ending. And [00:14:00] so we're in, that's what I call the great forgetting. We're flirting with a lot of movements, ideas, and actions that have been recently discredited because the people doing the flirting have no experience, personal experience with the consequences
[00:14:17] Jolene: You know, I wonder, a- and I've not heard this yet, but a- as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, are we gonna see some pushback from the right saying, "Oh, but remember y'all made us take down the statues and the street signs," and I
[00:14:30] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:31] Jolene: you know, all of the things that maybe we're not, we're not proud ab- about in our, in our past as Americans.
[00:14:37] But, but they reminded us of, you know, our past. H-
[00:14:42] David French: I think what you're seeing in these battles over history, We have huge fights over history in this country. You know, not as much as we, you know, when, when, when the anti-critical race theory wave kind of crested, you, you really had a lot of these fights at school boards, you know, all across the country, but they [00:15:00] never really go away.
[00:15:01] But here's what bothers me about all of those fights. They're-- 95% of the time, it's about one side saying, "This version of history communicates a truth about America that I really want to see communicated." And another side is saying, "No, no, no, no, no, it's this version of history." Because what ultimately to both combatants in the culture war, and I want to be very clear, I'm talking about combatants in the culture war, not all Americans, 'cause not all Americans are-- want any piece of this, right?
[00:15:33] But amongst the combatants in the culture war, history isn't an, an end, it's a means, in other words, so they will use history as a weapon in the war, but you can only use history as a weapon in a culture war if it's been sort of twisted and distorted to fit your frame, right?
[00:15:52] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:53] David French: so what I say is the discipline of history is both a means and an end, and, you know, the [00:16:00] end of the discipline of history is, is very simple.
[00:16:02] It's knowledge. It's understanding. It's wisdom. It's not victory. The objective of studying history isn't winning a battle. It's expanding your mind, right? And so, you know, that, that is an end in and of itself, just that knowledge. And then from that knowledge, you can develop wisdom. But if you don't have the knowledge, wisdom becomes much more difficult.
[00:16:28] But instead, what sort of the, the f- the fight over history is, it's not over accumulating knowledge, it's rather about achieving an outcome, and the outcome is more of my side and less of your side. And, and so that's why the history battles, you know, on the one hand, you might think, "Oh, wow, look at that.
[00:16:46] Lots of people interested in history." And you think, "That's great." No, no, no, no, no. They're not i- interested in history except as-- except for what it can do for them
[00:16:57] and so the tearing down of the [00:17:00] statues is, you know, again, that's a part of the battle over history that's not necessarily designed to increase understanding, but to create an ideological outcome.
[00:17:11] And the conversely, you- when you have things like, uh, right in the county, neighboring county, the Moms for Liberty group wanted to get rid of the book Ruby Bridges Goes to School from the elementary school curriculum, not because it was inaccurate, it was Ruby Bridges' firsthand account of desegregating schools in Louisiana, but because they didn't like the accurate way it portrayed some Southern whites in that book.
[00:17:38] And so in both of those circumstances, you've got people who are at-- wanting to shape present understandings of the past in a way that isn't necessarily accurate for the sake of achieving a present ideological outcome,
[00:17:58] nicole: David, I think we're all ex- [00:18:00] actually exactly the same age. I think we graduated from high school in '87. Is that possible?
[00:18:06] David French: '87. Class of '87. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
[00:18:09] nicole: I was thinking about, like...
[00:18:11] David French: We probably went to the same concerts, like, yeah.
[00:18:15] nicole: exactly. And so when we were coming up, we had direct contact with, we had experience, like we would possibly meet World War II, um,
[00:18:26] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:27] nicole: or Vietnam veterans, or Holocaust survivors.
[00:18:31] Like, it was a really tangible thing that we all, whether we learned it in history or met someone, it was there. We didn't
[00:18:40] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:40] nicole: media. We just had our own personal experience and what we read. it's making me think now we're the grownups. And I feel like maybe we haven't done the best job, uh, between being the grownups and social media and all of that, and people, like, shaping the [00:19:00] narratives. You know, I know as the liberal and my, my people, the whole woke movement, like we are really famous, I feel like, as humans, that we swing one way and then we swing the other way. And
[00:19:14] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:14] nicole: going to the middle doesn't mean you're moderate. To me,
[00:19:17] David French: Não
[00:19:17] nicole: just, I'm like, I want a place where we can all just take a deep breath and be like, "Hold on. Can we have a party of like reasonable people?" That's what I would like, right? So I'm
[00:19:26] David French: Well, well
[00:19:27] nicole: do we solve this, David?
[00:19:29] David French: Well, let me go on a, a quick tangent, and well, this is actually part of the solving. So I think there's, there's different kinds of moderation, and so when you hear the word moderate, you often think somebody who's in the middle ideologically, which is a valid definition of moderate. You know, somebody who's maybe I'm five degrees center right, or I'm 10 degrees center left or whatever, but you're in sort of that, what people used to call the great American middle.
[00:19:54] But there's another kind of moderate that I think is actually much more important than the ideological [00:20:00] middle, because I don't think the ideological middle is always right.
[00:20:02] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:03] David French: You know, abolitionists were not in the ideological middle before the Civil War.
[00:20:08] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:09] David French: the civil rights movement was not in the ideological middle, okay?
[00:20:13] Now, it did ev- ultimately bring in the ideological middle. It's one of the reasons why it was able to win and be successful. But there's another concept that I think is much better, and that's temperamental moderation. In other words, I am not a moderate when it comes to free speech.
[00:20:30] Uh, I'm very much committed to a big view of free speech in this country. I do not like cancel culture. I do not like state, state censorship But when I argue about this, when I debate this, I'm very open to listening to alternative ideas. I'm not gonna be cruel to people on the other side. I'm gonna treat them...
[00:20:50] I'm not gonna view them as my enemy simply 'cause they disagree with me on the limits of free speech jurisprudence. That's what I'm talking about when I mean, like, [00:21:00] temperamental moderation. In other words, you're open. You're willing to hear other people. You're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
[00:21:07] You're not going to misattribute bad motives to them, and that is what's missing in our discourse more than the ideological middle. The-- It's that temperamental middle, people who are able to talk to each other across large differences and retain close relationships, just like you guys are doing as a right and left-oriented podcast.
[00:21:32] And so this is the missing link in our discourse, and, and one of the reasons why it is missing is that ideological extremists often think that they can't accomplish their objectives without temperamental extremism as well.
[00:21:49] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:49] David French: And it's actually often the reverse of the truth, that in many ways you can actually get a lot done ideologically if you can meet [00:22:00] people where they are temperamentally, if that makes sense.
[00:22:03] And so what, what do we do to achieve a solution? It's not telling people, "You need to change your underlying worldview," That's their core identity. That's who they are, right? But if you can say to people- Well, look, you know, I respect your, I respect your, your, your view on healthcare reform or your view on foreign policy or your view on race relations in the United States or whatever.
[00:22:31] Let's reason together about it. Let's talk about it. And a lot of extremists, they, they hate that. They call it the politics of respectability. But I think the poli- another term for the politics of respectability is manners. It's, you know, it's kindness. It's decency. And so, uh, the way I've put it and, and I've...
[00:22:54] You know, I, I, I've been part of the same church small group for years and years, just wonderful, [00:23:00] wonderful people, but we're absolutely not the same politically. There's, you know, everything from somebody who would have voted, probably voted for Bernie if he's on the ballot to people who very happily voted for Trump all three times.
[00:23:13] However, and this is, you know, to use Christian terminology, there's a lot of presence of the fruit of the spirit there, which is kindness, peace, patience, gentleness, self-control. and my theory is that a... It's more than a theory, I think it's just a fact, is that groups marked by these virtues can maintain friendships across big differences.
[00:23:34] Groups that lack those virtues can't have friendships with almost any difference at all
[00:23:40] Jolene: Then I'm gonna switch gears with you saying that, and I'm gonna ask you about Graham
[00:23:44] nicole: I knew it. I was like, "We have to, we
[00:23:47] David French: Well, after you heard everything that I just said, you're gonna know where I stand on all this. But anyway, go ahead. Mm-hmm
[00:23:54] Jolene: so how did we get to this place? How are we getting... Or, and, and I guess I should note that we're recording on the day of the [00:24:00] primary. He's going to win his primary, um, I, I think. I, I think that's
[00:24:04] David French: I think that's a foregone conclusion. Yeah
[00:24:06] Jolene: right? And so I, I just... I mean, how in the world do we get past all of these things and, you know, and he's gonna be the Democratic
[00:24:17] nicole: I mean,
[00:24:17] David French: You know
[00:24:18] nicole: you hear The Daily today by chance? Did you hear
[00:24:20] David French: I did, I did not hear it today. Uh
[00:24:22] nicole: it's, it's really fascinating, and it's about Graham Platner and what's going on. And I w- as I'm walking and listening, I'm, like, screaming, like, because it's... You've talked, you talked about this actually, David, in your, interview with Isaac, when you did your piece about James Talarico, which we, the,
[00:24:43] David French: Yeah
[00:24:43] nicole: and I, when we were prepping for you, were like, "There's sort of a similar thing going on here," where So number one, Gra- the fact that to me, here I am, the liberal Democrat, and I am furious that he is the nominee. I cannot believe that we are [00:25:00] wasting one ounce of time on this person, that this is where we are. And you, well, bring, what I'm thinking about is what you said in the interview with Isaac where you said, you know, "The extremes are the loudest. Uh, they're the ones that seem to vote in the runoffs," hence Ken Paxton. Like,
[00:25:18] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:19] nicole: like, they are the ones that scream at you if you don't fight against, you know, said liberal or f- or
[00:25:27] David French: Yeah
[00:25:28] nicole: when I don- when I fight a- don't fight against Jolene. So there's this, like, he- these are the people that are running the campaigns, and then there's
[00:25:37] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:37] nicole: trying to be decent humans with my now, with my now two favorite conservatives, I have to say. So it's like, what do we do? Like, how do we, other than out what's happening, right?
[00:25:50] David French: Yeah. Yeah. So it's a great question, and I, I'm gonna go back to a concept that I think is really important for people to understand, and this is called the [00:26:00] exhausted majority. And so if you're gonna break down American political participation, it's really overly simplistic to say it's red and blue.
[00:26:08] there's obviously deep red and deep blue, and they drive a lot of polarization, and they really don't like each other and all of this, but America's a lot more complicated than that.
[00:26:16] And there's this group that was called More in Common, and it did a, a study called Hidden Tribes, and it was showing that actually there's more like, what, seven, eight different kind of big categories of Americans, and that if you're going to talk about, like, who's really driving the polarization, it's really about a third of America.
[00:26:34] It's the people on either wing, right and left. And the most of the rest of us, and I count myself in this, are in the so-called exhausted majority. Now, this directs, connects directly with what I was just saying. So who is in the exhausted majority? It's not all ideological moderates. It's people right, left, and center who [00:27:00] think we don't compromise.
[00:27:01] We don't have conversations with each other. I want to have debate and real conversation and dialogue. I don't want sh- shouting and screaming. And then here's what's a very big characteristic of this exhausted majority, is they feel like no one in politics is speaking to me, that everyone is speaking to the wings, the, the highly ideological wings.
[00:27:24] And so what they do is to take, uh, an image from, you know, a funny image from the internet, this Homer Simpson GIF that you sometimes see where he's got these wide eyes and he backs into the shrubbery and, like, disappears.
[00:27:36] Jolene: Yeah
[00:27:37] David French: That's the exhausted majority. And so most of us then don't give to political campaigns.
[00:27:44] We don't c- we don't vote in primaries. Uh, I use, um, two numbers to talk about this problem. If you're gonna look at Trump's successful run in twenty twenty-four, there are two numbers that really stand out. One is seventeen million, and the other one is, like, [00:28:00] seventy-seven or seventy-eight million.
[00:28:02] Seventeen million is the number of people who voted for him in the primary. Seventy-seven or seventy-eight million is the number of people who voted for him in the general election Look at that gulf. That's massive.
[00:28:15] nicole: Massive
[00:28:16] David French: So it's a really small minority of Americans who are shaping everything, and then once they select their candidate, who is often the meanest, toughest son of a bitch, you know, on their side of the aisle, then they go, "What are you gonna do?
[00:28:34] Vote for the Democrat?" Or, "What are you gonna do, do? Vote for the Republican?" so, you know, there's, there's really two problems here. One is the parties have been captured by fringes, and then the other one is that the majority, rather than asserting its will, is passively being led around the n- by the nose by these mino- minorities.
[00:28:54] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:54] David French: that's how you get a Graham... It's one of the ways, one of the ways you get a Graham Platner, is that this was a [00:29:00] guy selected by the more, far more left edge of the party, and which a part of it... And, and, you know, there's a phrase that, uh, it's kinda gone out of fashion, but you heard it a lot in the rise of Bernie, called the quote-unquote, "dirt bag left," where it's people who are just pugilistic, punitive, punch you in the face, call you a racist, call you a sexist, call you anything they wanted to call you to achieve their ends.
[00:29:25] And, you know, that, that kind of terminology has sort of fallen out of fashion and there's been obvious a lot more influen- uh, emphasis on sort of MAGA extremism. But that's an extremist wing that's out there, and they love them some Graham Platner. They love Graham Platner. And, and here's what's really dangerous about it.
[00:29:44] Let's suppose Graham Platner wins. Let... Th- this to me is our, our bad place. We're gonna be in the bad place if James Talarico loses and Graham Platner wins
[00:29:55] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:56] David French: And the cry across Democratic consultant circles will be, [00:30:00] "No more Talaricos, we need more Platteners."
[00:30:03] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:04] David French: And that's very bad for us in very much the same way that when Donald Trump, with all of his, uh, all of his terrible character wins, when somebody with p- when a McCain and a Romney lost, the cry rang up, "More Trumps, no more Romneys."
[00:30:20] nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:30:22] David French: you get locked because everyone's so focused on these electoral results that you get locked into. Often you lock, you lock in the whole character of your movement based on, you know, who can win or lose in an election cycle that, you know, quite honestly, you know, the, how much of Hillary Clinton's loss in 2016 was because Donald Trump was such a great campaigner, and how much was this was a super anti-incumbent era that we're in?
[00:30:49] And she was gonna have a uphill battle anyway. So, you know, these kinds of... This is how we get there, is you have the angriest fringe that is leaning [00:31:00] in, and you get the sort of more temperamentally moderate American leaning out, and this is exactly the politics. You get exactly the politics you would expect in that dynamic.
[00:31:10] nicole: But I feel like, and I know I'm talking to two conservatives here, but I feel like there is such a lack of self-awareness on the left when they are holding this guy up, because I was like, we raged against the machine with Trump, and all of his indecency, and all of the horrible things that we believed that he did between the, sorry Linda, pussy grabbing, all of that from f- day one.
[00:31:36] Like, how
[00:31:37] David French: Mm-hmm
[00:31:37] nicole: ever vote for this guy? I'm
[00:31:39] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:40] nicole: Graham Plattner is doing some really bad shit, and w- and our l- the left is saying, "Ah, okay. He's at least better than Susan Collins." And I'm here to say, no he's not.
[00:31:53] David French: No, no
[00:31:55] nicole: Yeah, I j- I just... The hypocrisy, David, I'm really struggling [00:32:00] with that...
[00:32:01] David French: can I make it even worse for you?
[00:32:02] nicole: Yes please, sir.
[00:32:06] David French: So,
[00:32:07] Jolene: on
[00:32:07] David French: yeah. So I've been a never Trumper since early 2016. So I have been at the receiving end of a decade's worth of argumentation, insults, and anger from MAGA, furious at me as a conservative for not supporting Trump, okay? And the arguments I'm getting from the left after I wrote an article and have tweeted about Graham Platner are the same arguments.
[00:32:31] nicole: Yes.
[00:32:32] David French: same.
[00:32:33] nicole: I'm
[00:32:33] David French: So,
[00:32:34] nicole: mirror, everybody."
[00:32:35] David French: yeah. So on the one hand, you get some of the people, like I just got an email, read an email from somebody who said, told me I need to go kill myself for opposing Graham Platner. You know...
[00:32:43] nicole: Oh.
[00:32:44] David French: you know, I've had decades, I mean, not decades, a decade, a single decade of like threats, intimidation, harassment for not supporting Trump.
[00:32:54] So here you have this harassment for saying, "Hey, I think he's not a good guy," [00:33:00] and, "Why don't you go kill yourself?" Well, that's not going to persuade me that he's good for America if that's like the people who are coming out of the woodwork.
[00:33:07] nicole: Right.
[00:33:08] David French: But then, but what actually disturbs me more is the heartfelt emails I get from people I can tell are decent people who are saying, "Is he my first choice?
[00:33:18] No, but the stakes are so high." That's exactly what I heard from my friends in 2016
[00:33:26] nicole: Absolutely.
[00:33:27] David French: and so, and these are people, and here, here's what I would say to my Democratic friends who are tempted by this stance, and I understand the temptation. I do. I'm not scorning it. I'm not mocking it. I didn't scorn it and mock it when my Republican friends said, "I really don't like Trump.
[00:33:42] I also really, really don't like Hillary Clinton. I'm gonna hold my nose and vote for Trump." I disagreed with them, but I respected them, okay? Disagreement is not the same thing as a disrespect. But what I saw again and again was the person who held their nose in 2016 was, like, the third boat in the boat parade in [00:34:00] 2020,
[00:34:00] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:34:01] David French: over time, supporting the corrupt politician when he or she wins actually changes the voter more than it changes the politician.
[00:34:13] So,
[00:34:14] Jolene: God, that
[00:34:15] David French: so,
[00:34:15] Jolene: true
[00:34:16] David French: so let me put it this way. If you're... If I'm in, I'm, I'm in evangelical America, evangelical America right now is more like Donald Trump than it was 10 years ago. Donald Trump has had more influence on the church than the church has had on Donald Trump, and that, and I'm warning my Democratic friends, if you wi- if Platner wins, now he's only a senator, he's not a president, two things are gonna happen.
[00:34:43] One, the cry will go up, "Get me more Graham Platners,"
[00:34:47] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:47] David French: and you will see more people acting like Graham Platner. and that's what, that's what happens. That's the power of leadership. I'm actually writing about this right now. Uh, the... That's the moral power of leadership is over [00:35:00] time, institutions take on the character of the leader, and over time, the people in the institutions take on the character of the leader of the institution
[00:35:09] Jolene: Okay, so are we gonna have to have, like, some cataclysmic event happen in America that puts us on a course correction that, uh, I mean, is that what... I, I go back to when we were in college, right? And we
[00:35:22] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:23] Jolene: War break out,
[00:35:24] David French: Yeah
[00:35:24] Jolene: uh, you know, we all became patriotic. Or,
[00:35:27] David French: Yeah.
[00:35:27] Jolene: after 9/11, we all became
[00:35:29] David French: Absolutely
[00:35:29] Jolene: I mean, everybody, everybody loved George Bush at that time when he was on top of the rebel. And so, I, I mean, is that what is
[00:35:37] David French: So I hope not. Here is what I think. Uh, so here, here's what I wonder, okay? Here's my cause for despair and my cause for hope, and I'll tell you both at the same time. American politics is thermostatic. In other words, it means that voters tend to constantly over-correct. So in other words, if, if you've gone too far to the right, voters will lock in, [00:36:00] and they'll be like, "No more of that," and often they'll swing too far to the left.
[00:36:04] And as they swing too far to the left, the voters go, "Nope, didn't mean that." And then you go... So if you, if you look at, like, the last 25 years of American politics, it's just been one overcorrection after another. And so one theory of this is that the thermostatic reaction of a Trump against a Trump on the right would ultimately be a Trump on the left.
[00:36:25] nicole: Hmm.
[00:36:25] David French: In other words, you're, you're-- what you're gonna do is you're gonna react against the present age, not by rejecting the manner and mores of Trump, but by moving them to the other side, if that makes sense. In other words, we're gonna beat Trump by having the, the left Trump. Another way of saying what could happen is if the c- if the signal characteristic of the moment is that indecency is the thing that voters are most angry about, the thermostatic reaction might be towards decency.
[00:36:56] So that's the happy place. The bad place is the thermostatic [00:37:00] reaction is we're just gonna be punching you from the left versus punching you from the right. The good place is we're gonna answer the punching with no more punching, if that makes sense.
[00:37:12] nicole: is there a universe where James Talarico and Susan Collins win?
[00:37:15] David French: this is getting to the answer to Jolene's question, which is, okay, I do th- imagine, I can imagine a horrible catasclymi- cataclysmic event, like a surprise attack against Americans or a natural disaster or whatever that brings us together, and I hope to God that's not what it takes.
[00:37:31] nicole: Me
[00:37:31] David French: But I can also imagine something else bringing us together, and that's election results in this sense: If Talarico wins and Platner loses, think about this. On the Republican side, it's going to tell them, "Hey, look, we won with a corrupt guy in Trump." That magic does not translate.
[00:37:52] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:53] David French: going forward-- 'cause Ken Paxton's a mini-me of Donald Trump.
[00:37:57] he covers up an avalan- or an [00:38:00] ocean of corruption and, and cruelty and infidelity. He covers that all up by being the m- toughest, meanest SOB in the room against the left. And, and so that's a mini-me of Trump. Trump has covered up all of... He, he-- It's all out in the open, but he has, he has gotten his followers to overlook it because he's so vicious against his political opponents.
[00:38:25] And so Paxton's the mini version of that. Well, if he loses, what that means is that even in the state of freaking Texas, that sort of pugilistic, cruel, mean, corrupt MAGA doesn't translate past Donald Trump. And then it would tell the Democratic Party, "Oh, wait a minute. The actual way to beat MAGA, even in freaking Texas, is with a guy..."
[00:38:54] He's not, he's, he's liberal. He's liberal. He's not
[00:38:56] nicole: liberal
[00:38:57] David French: moderate. He's liberal. But a guy [00:39:00] who is welcoming to pro-lifers, who doesn't hate people who disagree with him, who's trying to build a big tent with fewer ideological litmus tests. Think about from a cultural standpoint how much healthier that is.
[00:39:14] And then you go over to Maine, and you have Susan Collins. Susan Collins, she's not perfect, but she is far more ideologically independent than almost any other Republican. She voted to convict Trump. She has voted against the Iran war. She has voted against multiple Trump nominees.
[00:39:31] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:31] David French: supposed to be the kiss of death electorally, being, having some independence.
[00:39:35] Well, if she wins being independent in a blueish state and Platner loses being an ass, then, then what we have is, you know, a re- a moment where the message is sent in both directions That the day of the asshole is over. And,
[00:39:58] Jolene: Wow
[00:39:59] David French: [00:40:00] that's, you know, I- I- and it's a super unpopular position in a place like Twitter, but I actually think in the real world that that's, that could be a transformative moment and message
[00:40:12] Jolene: I think, and we've talked about this as we talk about, um, Gavin Newsom. I said I feel like Gavin Newsom is just the Democratic version of Trump. He tries to sound like Trump. He tries to, he's trying to punch back like Trump. I think people are gonna be so sick of Trump by, in the next two years
[00:40:27] I don't think Gavin's gonna win.
[00:40:28] David French: Well, and, uh, I mean, Gavin is po- you know, he's popular in California, but California is not popular in most of the rest of the country is another way of thinking about it. And so... it is going to be very difficult for us right now in June of 2026 to predict who's going to be the best Democratic standard-bearer until we see these midterm results.
[00:40:50] And, and, and I think if you do see sort of like a Ta- And, and maybe the hill is just too high for Talarico to climb in Texas, but if you do see more sort of [00:41:00] Talarico style Democrats... And again, I, I, the reason why I keep going back to him is that I think he's a persuasive figure to other Democrats because he's not asking other Democrats to change their beliefs to attract new voters.
[00:41:15] He's asking other Democrats to be kind to other people
[00:41:19] Jolene: Hmm
[00:41:20] David French: new voters.
[00:41:21] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:21] David French: And I think that's a critically important distinction in the message, because
[00:41:28] Jolene: Amen
[00:41:28] David French: we all have political positions, and we hold those positions 'cause we believe they're true and right and just. And asking me to change all those to win people over, for me, I know for me, it's a heavy lift, right?
[00:41:42] It's a heavy lift. But if you're gonna ask me, "Okay, wait a minute. Rather than asking you to change your beliefs, why don't you go out and find somebody on the other side or somebody who's wavering or whatever, who agrees with you on a bunch of stuff, not everything, and then say to them, 'Hey, we agree on a bunch [00:42:00] of stuff, not everything, but we, we welcome you anyway.
[00:42:05] We want you anyway, and we're not gonna come in and browbeat you on the things that we continue to disagree on. We'll work together on the things that we agree on.'" and that's a paradigm shift from our normal politics of the last 20 years, but it's actually part of the, also part of the American political history.
[00:42:24] Prior to the last 25 years, you had Republican and Democratic presidents who were able to form cross-party coalitions to enact legislation. Ronald Reagan had a working majority in the House without the Republicans ever controlling the House, 'cause he reached across party lines and worked on common interests.
[00:42:42] And so, you know, I hear me talk about this and say, "David, that all sounds nice in la-la land, but that's not how people are." And I'm like, " You're in the middle of the great forgetting, because in my lifetime, in my lifetime, it's been like that." It's, in my lifetime, [00:43:00] you've had bigger tents than the parties
[00:43:02] nicole: Well, we even find it in our podcast that we, as we've grown in the last year and a half, like, we usually at the top of each episode, if we're not interviewing someone or talking about something light like abortion or guns or something, we
[00:43:18] David French: All the fun stuff, all the just cheery, yeah
[00:43:21] nicole: But the first thing that Jolene and I usually do is what are the things that we can agree on? it
[00:43:27] David French: Mm-hmm
[00:43:27] nicole: the tone in a different way to start talking to each other in a way of just being human, And it's really, at least I'm gonna say the social media extremes, they are so rattled by it. They don't know what to do because they want us to fight each other because that's what we've all been fed for the last 10 years, I guess, with social media. like you said, we don't have to agree on everything, but we can start to communicate with each other, and it just sets a different sort of [00:44:00] tone to be able to work together
[00:44:03] David French: Absolutely. You know, No one would ever accuse me, um, until the very recent past, like the-- Uh, and I'm talking like very recently. No one would've ever accused me of ideological moderation. I was definitely conservative.
[00:44:17] nicole: Right
[00:44:18] David French: and I'm still very conservative, but not the brand of conservatism that's in fashion.
[00:44:23] I'm not a populist in any way, shape, or form. I, I dis- I have always deeply disliked populism, in part because I grew up in the South, If you were going to say, what is the historic ideology of the American South? It's populist. And I have seen all the corruption, all the culty hero worship.
[00:44:41] I've seen it all. And populism is one of the reasons why the South, for generations, was a much more economically backward. It was much more, uh, we all know the racial history of the South. Populism is poison. And so I've never been a populist, ever. [00:45:00] But I've always been conservative and the thing that when I was growing up a conservative, I would always look at my friends who are on the more to my left, and there would always be, uh, points of agreement.
[00:45:11] We would always have points of agreement, and the way I formed friendships and have maintained, you know, friendships with people like to the left of Bernie for 35, 40 years, is that w- we focus on areas of agreement, and then when we have areas of disagreement, at no point does either one of us or anybody in that circle ever have the view that my friend doesn't like me anymore or that my friend is gonna hate me because of my sincerely held convictions.
[00:45:39] And so we have to relearn that skill. And I, I, I'm remind... And I wrote about this recently about friendship. I was writing about friendship in the TV show Hacks on HBO, which is just
[00:45:51] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:45:52] David French: hilarious. But, and so there's this intergenerational, cross-ideological, cross-class devi- [00:46:00] friendship that's the heart of this story, and I was remembering something that the late pastor Tim Keller told me all the way back in, I think it was 2006.
[00:46:09] He said, "I am noticing that the young people in my church cannot disagree anymore and remain friends."
[00:46:17] nicole: Yeah
[00:46:17] David French: That for years and years, they could disagree about politics, they could disagree about theology, and sometimes they just, they enjoyed it. They loved each other, and when they ha- talked across these divides, they both learned from each other.
[00:46:31] It gave them greater understanding. It was a feature, not a bug, right? And then he said, " Now it's changing. They cannot abide the disagreement." The disagreement is basically being seen as a proof of bad character, so that, like, if you're pro-life and you meet somebody pro-choice, you're like, "Well, you're, you ha- you obviously have a bad character."
[00:46:51] If you're pro-choice and you meet somebody who's pro-life, you say, "Well, you're obviously a bad person."
[00:46:55] nicole: Right
[00:46:55] Jolene: Yep.
[00:46:56] David French: And, and so that, that is creating an enormous amount [00:47:00] of unfortunate division in this country 'cause, you know, look, think... If, if you just pause and think about it for five seconds, think how arrogant I would have to be to believe that disagreeing with me means you have bad character I mean, I, I'm not God.
[00:47:19] Like, right? I, I'm wrong all the time. I, I could... You know, so i- if you go back 10 years ago to where I was kind of in denial in my view about the state of r- race relations in America, was I a bad person then and I'm a better person now? Well, in, hopefully in some ways. I'm always trying to be a better person.
[00:47:41] But my mistaken view, my mistaken view didn't make me a terrible person.
[00:47:47] nicole: Right
[00:47:47] David French: hopefully, hopefully, the part of my character that really matters, hopefully, is am I open to the truth, right? And if I'm open to the truth, [00:48:00] then hopefully I'm a person of good character even when I'm wrong.
[00:48:05] Jolene: All right
[00:48:06] nicole: Right. Right
[00:48:07] David French: that means 'cause I'm correctable, I can learn, you know, all of these things.
[00:48:10] And, and it's just incredibly sad that we're starting to view people who disagree with us as just terrible people. Why? Not because they've been cruel to us or mean or lied or anything like that, but because they disagreed. And that, that's where we are in this country, and it's a very scary place to be
[00:48:29] nicole: Well, we were talking about this before, like it's sort of that sitting in that discomfort, no one wants to be uncomfortable anymore. And if you
[00:48:36] David French: Right
[00:48:38] nicole: Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you telling me I'm wrong? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait." Like, and your whole world starts to crumble. You're like, "Nope, I'm right.
[00:48:46] Bye-bye." Like, " You
[00:48:48] David French: Yeah
[00:48:48] nicole: part of my narrative." Like, it's just too much, I know that I like to blame social media a lot, but
[00:48:55] David French: It's a part of it.
[00:48:57] nicole: like
[00:48:57] David French: it's a part of it
[00:48:58] nicole: narrative and, you know, [00:49:00] David, I deal with all the social media stuff, and so I'll g- I'll be the one, like taking a deep old breath and like how do I meet this person with kindness when they're
[00:49:11] David French: Yeah
[00:49:11] nicole: being kind at
[00:49:13] David French: So sometime the kindest thing is you just ignore them, right? But
[00:49:18] nicole: it is, and sometimes holding up the mirror, there are, there are times when they're like, "I'm so sorry. I was
[00:49:24] David French: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:24] nicole: much wine," or, "I'm so sorry. I didn't know you were human." You know,
[00:49:29] David French: Yeah.
[00:49:30] nicole: real, too. It's,
[00:49:31] David French: Absolutely
[00:49:32] Jolene: David, do
[00:49:33] David French: Yes
[00:49:34] Jolene: Trump will
[00:49:35] nicole: Oh
[00:49:36] Jolene: his four years naturally?
[00:49:37] David French: Huh, that's a really good question. I mean, look, I do think so. I do think so. Um, although nobody should be surprised if he doesn't. I mean, he's, he's either about to be 80 or just turning 80. Um, and, you know, I mean, as we saw, people can decline slowly and then suddenly and, you know, who knows? So it's [00:50:00] total speculation, but I would as- uh, you just have to assume, yeah.
[00:50:03] Yeah, he will. Yeah, he will
[00:50:05] I do not think he'll be impeached or convicted. So in other words, I don't think he'll be expelled from office. The only question I would have is it would he, you know, resign because of health reason, whatever. That, that, that's an open question, but complete speculation, totally unqualified to make that assessment
[00:50:21] To me, the answer I feel more confident about than will Trump finish out his term is will MAGA endure without a Donald Trump?
[00:50:33] nicole: Yeah
[00:50:34] David French: And, and the answer to that for me is I would be shocked if it did. Uh, that, that MAGA depends on a very unique person,
[00:50:44] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:44] David French: a very unique personality.
[00:50:47] Um,
[00:50:47] Jolene: Yeah
[00:50:48] David French: not a re- he's not a formula you can replicate. And, and I think American politics would be pretty better off if we stopped looking at individual leaders like, uh, [00:51:00] you know, just in my lifetime, a Reagan, a Clinton, an Obama, a Trump, as types of people that you can then put another person into that slot
[00:51:09] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:10] David French: "See?
[00:51:11] Here we go."
[00:51:12] Jolene: H-
[00:51:12] David French: And instead look at them as unique individuals with unique charisma and unique ability, uh, to draw people to them. And they're not a formula. And, and I think that a lot of political parties go astray by trying to match the formula and, and that's what the Republicans have been doing for a while.
[00:51:33] And what we saw, especially in the midterms in, say, 2022 and 2018, when Donald Trump isn't on the ballot, the formula does not work
[00:51:46] nicole: Right. Right. Right. I mean, you would say that with Graham Plattner too, with the central casting of him. They
[00:51:54] David French: Yeah
[00:51:54] nicole: go for him. They went for a type,
[00:51:57] David French: They went for a type
[00:51:58] nicole: it doesn't work, 'cause it's not [00:52:00] authentic. They want authentic, and he's a total not authentic person.
[00:52:05] David French: Well, you know, and can we talk about the word authenticity? I've gotten to hate-- I, I hate-- I've gotten to hate it.
[00:52:10] nicole: I hate
[00:52:11] David French: Look, I hate it. I mean, look, I... You know, 'cause here's the weird thing. Very few people say if somebody's super kind and super smart and compassionate, they don't go, "I-- He's so authentic."
[00:52:26] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:27] David French: Well, some people are authentically kind, right?
[00:52:30] They're, they're authentically compassionate. But we usually reserve it for somebody who's really rough around the edges. "Oh, well, they're authentic."
[00:52:37] nicole: Right.
[00:52:38] David French: mean, come on. Go to a prison. Lots of authenticity there. Not a lot of virtue, you know? And so the goal is virtue, not authenticity. And the only reason that authenticity is adjacent to a virtue, it's not a virtue, it's a characteristic, but the only thing that makes it adjacent to a virtue [00:53:00] is if, you know, you're not deceiving people as to who you are, right?
[00:53:04] So,
[00:53:05] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:53:05] David French: way of saying someone is authentic is that they genuinely are themselves. in dating, I would say the first few dates, especially with my, with my wife, I was not very authentic. I was c- I was casting myself as better than I am, right? I was trying to put on a show that I'm better than I am.
[00:53:23] but, you know, what we're doing now is something the reverse of that. It's like people are exaggerating in, on their, on... You know, I've heard the term vice signaling. They're often leaning into vice. They're leaning into pugilism. They're y- leaning into cruelty to be seen as authentic.
[00:53:41] nicole: Right.
[00:53:42] I don't know if this goes with this conversation, but I really wanna know about what you think about the 60 Minutes shakeup
[00:53:47] David French: Boy, that is one where I feel like I just have none of the facts.
[00:53:55] nicole: Me
[00:53:55] David French: You know, I, I have been, uh, before... This is one of the areas where [00:54:00] my, my experience, I think, as a, a longtime litigator really helps me in this moment. And one of the ways it helps me is by helping me keep my mouth shut when I don't know what's going on.
[00:54:10] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:11] David French: because one of the things that, you know, I used to do a lot of litigation on behalf of large corporations, and there's reams of emails, uh, countless personal conversations. There's all kinds of stuff that I just don't know. So then what you're, you're reduced to is sort of saying, "Well, I trust Scott Pelley," or, "I trust Bari Weiss," by people who don't know Scott Pelley or Bari Weiss.
[00:54:38] They just p- pop him in an ideological category and they say, "Well, Scott Pelley, he represents the legacy media, so I either like or don't like that. And Bari Weiss represents sort of the independent, resurgent, uh, you know, more conservative media, and I either like or don't like that. And so I'm gonna do all of my categorizing on that basis."
[00:54:56] nicole: Mm-hmm
[00:54:57] David French: When, you know, in his interview, um, at the time, [00:55:00] Scott referenced an email that he received that he didn't have in front of him and that he paraphrased.
[00:55:05] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:06] David French: And I'm thinking,
[00:55:07] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:55:08] David French: "I wanna see the email.
[00:55:09] nicole: Yeah.
[00:55:10] David French: I,
[00:55:11] nicole: Yeah.
[00:55:11] David French: don't wanna paraphrase the email. I wanna see the email."
[00:55:14] nicole: Yeah
[00:55:14] David French: so this is just happens again and again and again, which is there's a complicated dispute that we don't know all the facts about,
[00:55:21] nicole: mm-hmm.
[00:55:22] David French: we decide, though, who's lying or telling the truth based on our ideological sympathy
[00:55:27] nicole: Yes
[00:55:27] David French: based at all on independent knowledge.
[00:55:30] And that's how I feel about 60 Minutes. That's how I feel about CBS News more generally. I just... I don't know. I don't know
[00:55:39] Jolene: could you even lump in the late night talk shows into that too? Like,
[00:55:43] David French: Mm-hmm
[00:55:43] Jolene: are people just not watching them anymore so that's why they're off the air? They couldn't get the sponsorship, you know, they couldn't get... And so is that, although that's probably not true with 60 Minutes, I,
[00:55:53] David French: Mm-hmm
[00:55:53] Jolene: their ratings are up and all that, but are people just not getting their news that way anymore and there needed to be a change
[00:55:59] David French: Well, [00:56:00] there's-- A lot of it depends on profitability numbers we know nothing about.
[00:56:04] nicole: Right.
[00:56:04] David French: now we've, we have heard that 60 Minutes is high ratings and very profitable. In that circumstance, it makes you raise an eyebrow. Why would you shake up something with high ratings and very profitable? But again, I don't know for certain.
[00:56:16] nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:56:17] David French: I do know for sure that, you know, late night ratings are a lot lower than they used to be, but so are broadcast ratings in general. So, but what do I know? Is the show profitable? Do they think it could make more money in a different format or whatever? These are things I don't know the answer to, you know.
[00:56:35] But I do know, for example, if a member of the government says a late night talk show host should be fired, I know enough there to say, "We don't want that kind of pressure from the government on a private citizen,
[00:56:47] nicole: Right
[00:56:48] David French: uh, for a pr- you know, to be fired because they criticized a leader of the government." I mean, like, this is core First Amendment stuff here.
[00:56:55] So, so that's why I have not, for example, [00:57:00] weighed in on CBS, but I will weigh in when I see a government official, right or left,
[00:57:05] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:57:05] David French: pressuring a network to fire somebody over a political point of view
[00:57:10] Jolene: 100%. Uh, David, will you finish this sentence? In four years, America will
[00:57:17] David French: be in recovery
[00:57:20] nicole: Oh.
[00:57:22] Jolene: Oh, okay.
[00:57:24] David French: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's...
[00:57:26] nicole: I'm
[00:57:26] David French: I believe it.
[00:57:27] nicole: The non,
[00:57:28] David French: I could be totally wrong. I could be totally wrong. I could be totally wrong, but I, in my... There are enough green shoots of hope that I see. There are enough people who seem to be rallying against the spirit of the age, uh, the cruelty of the spirit of the age. There are enough currents in pop culture where people are re-emphasizing friendship and connection.
[00:57:50] There is enough awareness of what this thing, the phone, is doing to us. There are a lot of smart, wise, compassionate, courageous people [00:58:00] who know we have to... We cannot continue like this. and the person I think who's most culturally responsible for the, the way, the, the, the way in which we're ripping ourselves to shreds, and I don't put this all on Trump by any means, uh, by any means.
[00:58:16] But I say of a whole universe of 300-plus million Americans, I think he's the most significant cultural force pushing us apart, and he'll be gone from the scene. He won't be there anymore. And we have seen the Republicans have a really hard time winning, replicating all of that. So in my view, 2028, if Republicans lean into a MAGA person who is not Trump, then I think they'll crash and burn.
[00:58:43] If they zag and they lean into a Republican who's not like Trump, in other words, he's not the MAGA caricature, but he's much more sort of like what you think of as the normie Republican, like my neighbors whom I know and love in Tennessee,
[00:58:57] Jolene: Mm-hmm
[00:58:58] David French: healing, [00:59:00] and you'll see some national healing as a result of that.
[00:59:03] And so I think in four years, America is in a state of recovery. The question is, How bad will our condition be that we have to recover from?
[00:59:14] Jolene: Will we be in rehab for like 30 days, or is it like three years? I mean, that's the...
[00:59:19] David French: Or are we just popping in and out of rehab? Yeah, I know. Yeah, exactly.
[00:59:23] Jolene: are we
[00:59:24] nicole: Exactly.
[00:59:25] David French: Yeah
[00:59:25] nicole: my God, this has been amazing. do you have a good for the soul for us?
[00:59:33] David French: let me, let me, if you give me half a second, I'm going to read,
[00:59:37] Jolene: Go
[00:59:37] David French: I'm gonna read a quote, And, and this is gonna out me as the world's biggest nerd, which is hardly a secret. But when times are very dark,
[00:59:48] nicole: Yes
[00:59:48] David French: I think of this quote, and it's from Return of the King. Uh, and it's, uh, talking about...
[00:59:55] And if you remember, if you've either read bo- the books or saw the movie, you'll know about this moment. [01:00:00] Uh, Sam and Frodo are marooned in Mordor. They're surrounded by orcs. There is no hope at all. The ring of power is weighing down on Frodo, crushing his soul and his spirit. I mean, it's about the darkest moment you can imagine.
[01:00:12] And he- here's what happens next. " There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end, the shadow was only a small and passing thing.
[01:00:42] There was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach." And I think that that is a beautiful and true statement of life, that the shadow is but a small and passing thing, and there is light and high beauty forever beyond its reach. [01:01:00] I think it's a, it's a great, great spiritual truth, and, uh, that- it's that sentiment that is helps keep me, keeps me going, uh, day by day
[01:01:10] Jolene: That was
[01:01:11] nicole: Wow
[01:01:13] Jolene: And how ironic on this June 9th as we are, are recording this that tonight is supposed to be the time
[01:01:20] nicole: Oh, right, the kiss
[01:01:21] Jolene: and Jupiter, yeah, like, like that star almost looks like one.
[01:01:26] David French: Yeah. Oh, right. Oh, int... Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah
[01:01:30] nicole: all right, Jolene, I think it's time for you to give the would you rather to David
[01:01:36]
[01:01:40] Jolene: would you rather have all Americans trust the media again or trust political institutions again?
[01:01:53] David French: Ooh, the media. The media. Yeah. Because overall, the media [01:02:00] has more influence on culture and other non-political aspects of life than the political institutions do. So the, the media help, helps us shape how we view our history. The media helps us shape how we view our neighbors. The media helps us shape, understand how we view events overseas.
[01:02:18] It's just bigger and has more influence overall than the political institutions do
[01:02:25] nicole: absolutely.
[01:02:28] Jolene: There's hope. you have a would you, you have a would you rather for us?
[01:02:32] David French: would you rather have a kind, uh, a, a kind person of the opposing party who does not share your political views win a, an election in your state versus a, I'm not gonna go all the way and say cruel and corrupt, but a, a obviously deeply flawed individual who shares your policy priorities
[01:02:58] Jolene: I mean, [01:03:00] for me, I, I'll go first, Nicole. I, I'd, I, I felt like I made that choice when I voted for Trump. I mean, right? That, that I... And in the, and really I've, when I voted for him the first time, it was because I knew that he had such an influence over the Supreme Court, and I was thinking bigger picture.
[01:03:18] Like, I needed a Republican in there to help the Supreme Court, you know, have, um, you know, lean more right. And so I did, I gave up. But no, not anymore. I
[01:03:31] David French: Yeah.
[01:03:32] Jolene: that now, right?
[01:03:33] David French: mm-hmm.
[01:03:34] nicole: Sorry, David, go
[01:03:35] David French: I think it's an easier question to answer in theory than practice,
[01:03:38] nicole: It wasn't until we've done this podcast, David, that I've ever entertained, ever entertained voting for someone that wasn't a Democrat.
[01:03:47] David French: Mm-hmm.
[01:03:47] nicole: I never have. I've always voted Democrat. But
[01:03:51] David French: Mm-hmm.
[01:03:52] nicole: I'm really... And I- we're gonna, I'm gonna bring up Brad Porteus again, our friend Brad Porteus, who does Bridge Grades.
[01:03:59] Do you know Bridge [01:04:00] Grades, David?
[01:04:01] David French: Uh, no, I don't
[01:04:01] nicole: Uh, bridgegrades.org. He has created this, uh, platform where he, uh, takes data for the, for each Congress, the Senate and the House, and he throws what they say and what they do, and he, they're... The top half of the class are, get As and Bs, and they're the bridgers, and the bottom half get Cs and Fs, and they're the dividers. And so his dream is to have us vote in terms of a bridger or a divider versus a Democrat or a Republican. And so that was s- super revolutionary to me to think about, wait, now doing all this work we've done and learning so much from Jolene, and hopefully she's learned some stuff from me too, but that I really want people that are kind-hearted, that want the best for each other.
[01:04:59] And, [01:05:00] and if you have an R next to your name, o- maybe. I don't know.
[01:05:06] David French: Yeah. Yeah
[01:05:07] nicole: time, but there's a first time for everything, so I don't know.
[01:05:10] David French: Absolutely. I hear you. I hear you
[01:05:13] nicole: You know? I just
[01:05:14] Jolene: Maine, how would you vote in November, Nicole?
[01:05:17] nicole: I would vote for Susan Collins
[01:05:20] David French: If I was in Texas, I would vote for Tallarico.
[01:05:22] nicole: Yeah.
[01:05:23] Jolene: Yeah. Right
[01:05:24] David French: not pro-choice, I'm pro-life. Yeah
[01:05:27] Jolene: Yeah.
[01:05:27] nicole: Well, yeah.
[01:05:28] Jolene: Uh, thank you so
[01:05:30] nicole: This is
[01:05:31] Jolene: was- We have been so excited about this
[01:05:33] nicole: Oh my gosh.
[01:05:34] Jolene: honored to have
[01:05:35] nicole: So honored
[01:05:36] Jolene: And, um, uh, you know, we read so much of your stuff and, and love watching your podcasts and, and so we're, um, just thrilled that you were with us today
[01:05:46] nicole: Thank you
[01:05:46] David French: Well, thank you so much. It's been a real delight. Thank you
[01:05:49] nicole: Thank you. right. Uh,
[01:05:52] Jolene: Thanks
[01:05:52] nicole: bye. Thank you
[01:05:54]
