Why Americans are So Mean to Each Other
Everyone's noticed it, but nobody wants to say it out loud: Americans have gotten meaner. Or at least, that’s what David Brooks believes. Today we're discussing an article that David wrote for The Atlantic, “How America Got Mean”. His explanation for our national cruelty crisis left Nicole feeling defeated, and Jolene a little more optimistic.
Regardless of whether the article was perhaps a little dramatic, both Nicole and Jolene agreed there is something very wrong with the way Americans are treating each other. And it seems to have gotten worse over the last 20 years.
So how did we get here?
The Post-War Psychology Shift
Brooks traces our meanness epidemic back to a pivotal moment after World War II, when America made a fundamental choice: we turned inward. The rise of psychology services shifted our focus from "How can I serve my community?" to "How can I find myself?" Self-awareness became the ultimate goal, and somewhere along the way, we forgot that other people exist.
Nicole found this fascinating because it explains so much about our current moment. We've become a nation of individuals optimizing our personal journeys while losing the ability to connect with anyone whose journey looks different from ours.
Jolene was interested in the shift away from religion in more recent years, where community is often built. Being a Catholic woman herself, she sees the profound benefit of serving others, and although religion doesn’t have to be the catalyst, it certainly used to be more prevalent.
When Politics Became Morality
Here's where Brooks hits something crucial: we've stopped judging people by their character and started judging them by their political affiliations. Being "moral" now means voting the right way, not treating people with basic human decency.
This explains why families can't have dinner together anymore without someone storming out. We've turned political disagreement into moral warfare, where anyone who votes differently isn't just wrong - they're evil. No wonder we can't find common ground when we've convinced ourselves the other side is fundamentally immoral.
The Loneliness Epidemic
Brooks points out that half of Americans feel unknown, truly unknown by another human being. That's not just sad, it's dangerous. Lonely people become angry people, and angry people lash out. When you feel invisible and disconnected, cruelty becomes a way to feel powerful.
We've both noticed this in our own circles. Friends in loving marriages still feel isolated by the state of the world. People with successful careers still feel fundamentally alone. Social media promised connection but has delivered performance anxiety instead and a sense of a “compare and despair” culture.
Do We Have Too Many Boundaries?
Here's where modern therapy culture might be making things worse. The emphasis on "setting boundaries" and "protecting your energy" can become an excuse for basic selfishness. Yes, boundaries matter, but so does showing up for other people, even when it's inconvenient.
We've created a culture where self-care justifies almost any level of disconnection from community responsibility. The result? A society of people so focused on their individual well-being that they've forgotten how to care about collective well-being.
The Education Gap
Brooks mentions that schools stopped teaching morality because they were afraid of offending someone. The result? Generations of people who never learned how to disagree respectfully or find common ground across differences.
We've abandoned civic education, moral reasoning, and conflict resolution in favor of avoiding difficult conversations. Then we wonder why adults can't handle political disagreement without turning into internet trolls.
The Path Back
So how do we fix this? Brooks suggests we need to relearn connection - not just with people who think like us, but with our broader communities. That means showing up to local meetings, volunteering for causes that matter, and engaging with neighbors who might vote differently.
It means choosing curiosity over judgment when someone disagrees with us. It means remembering that the person with the opposing bumper sticker is still a human being with their own story, fears, and hopes.
America's meanness isn't inevitable - it's a choice we're making every day. We can choose to see political opponents as enemies or as fellow citizens with different ideas. We can choose to prioritize individual optimization or community connection. We can choose cruelty or kindness.
The world reflects back what we put into it. If we want a kinder America, we have to be kinder Americans. If we want respectful political discourse, we have to model respectful disagreement. If we want connection, we have to risk being vulnerable with people who might not agree with us.
It's not easy, but it's necessary. Because the alternative - a society where meanness is the default and loneliness is epidemic - isn't working for anyone.
resources mentioned:
Iris Murdoch: The Sovereignty of Good https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11232.The_Sovereignty_of_Good
Monica Guzman: I Never Thought of It That Way
https://www.moniguzman.com/book
Mister Rogers Documentary:
https://youtu.be/FhwktRDG_aQ?si=QpudPyQPAMy3osLq
Ted Lasso:
https://tv.apple.com/us/show/ted-lasso/umc.cmc.vtoh0mn0xn7t3c643xqonfzy
Brooke Berman Substack: https://substack.com/@brookeberman
LINKS:
-
[00:00:00] Nicole: She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years.
[00:00:04] Nicole: Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money. And we say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud.
[00:00:18] Nicole: Hello, Jolene.
[00:00:20] Jolene: you do such a nice job on that. That's so good. That's so good. Somebody should hire you to be a professional voice
[00:00:27] Nicole: yeah, it's weird.
[00:00:28] Nicole: It's weird. Welcome to, we've got to talk you guys.
[00:00:32] Jolene: We've got to talk about this piece of hair. And if you're just listening to us, I apologize because, uh, you know what I think this is, I think this is, um, menopause hair. I think I'm losing hair right here and I'm getting this weird cowlick, and then all of a sudden I've got this weird piece of hair that just is funky all day long.
[00:00:51] Nicole: One of our viewers and listeners sent us an Atlantic article from August 14th, 2023 called How America Got [00:01:00] Mean by David Brooks. we will put it in the show notes. there is a free trial, which is what I did, it is a very long article.
[00:01:09] Nicole: You can read it and they also have someone read it for you. I think Jolene, you read it
[00:01:15] Jolene: I read it. Yeah.
[00:01:16] Nicole: And I listened to it three times because I kept trying to understand it and I'm really anxious to hear your take Jolene. Um, for one, I got excited that it was David Brooks because he is a Catholic and I thought, ooh.
[00:01:35] Nicole: She's gonna relate to him, uh, in a way that I might not necessarily, but I think, I think he's a pretty great writer. Although I found in times in this article, he, I found it a little pompous, and I was, I was trying to figure out exactly what he was trying to say, and, and so I, I'm, I'm anxious to talk about it, and I'm also anxious to talk to you because [00:02:00] I, as I said right before we got on that I'm feeling a little demoralized about the state of affairs and how, I really, encourage all of us to, do our best to either pull away from the news or, understand.
[00:02:22] Nicole: Where the news is coming from and who they're trying to target and how they're trying to instigate. Because I was talking to a girlfriend yesterday and she's very upset about the news and she's has Canadian citizenship and has been thinking about moving there and just really, really triggered. I tasked her with the, the assignment of stop watching the news for three days just to see how that feels.
[00:02:54] Nicole: Um, I think it's also interesting the fact that she does have the option to leave. That it, [00:03:00] we don't have that option whe whether you want to leave or not. but we were having this discussion about how we truly in our guts. Believe that there are more people out there just no matter what they align with that are good people that want to connect.
[00:03:19] Nicole: And, as this article says, like lead a life of connection in a sense of a more, a moral foundation. And I am trying to hold onto that when I'm not feeling that encouraged right now.
[00:03:36] Jolene: okay. I hope then this conversation is, um, I hope it's really fruitful then, because I actually have a different opinion.
[00:03:44] Nicole: were the first things that struck you and. you share something that really resonated for you and I can do the same.
[00:03:54] Jolene: I'm not familiar with David Brooks, but as I looked into his, you know, um, background, his, his, [00:04:00] um, biography, who, who he is, um, I think he's conservative uh,
[00:04:05] Nicole: a Trump fan, but, but he's,
[00:04:07] Jolene: Yeah. But that I, that guess that would make sense.
[00:04:10] Jolene: Yeah. So anyway, it was interesting because when I first started reading this article, and by the way, so it, it gave you the, the option to listen to it, which was gonna be like 45 minutes or 44 minutes to listen to it. And so I timed myself going, oh, well obviously I can read it in about 20 minutes.
[00:04:28] Jolene: No, it took me 50 minutes to read this because I found myself like, right. I, and so it was, that was interesting, so please, listener, if you get a chance to read it, it it really, or, or listen to it, it, it really is good. But here are the things that I think my, my knee jerk reaction was, um, and, and this comes from being a Christian, that our moral compass, um, is off in America and that there, you know, are less people that are going to church. he talks about it in terms of community. being [00:05:00] church or civic organizations or, you know, your school board or, or whatever. And I think, um, a again, as someone who is religious, I, I mean, and I, I hate to say I'm religious 'cause I don't like that term, like, that's so subjective.
[00:05:15] Jolene: So I don't,
[00:05:16] Jolene: I, but religion means something to me, so
[00:05:20] Nicole: and you are part of a church.
[00:05:22] Jolene: Yes. so I feel like that's one thing that we have been saying we, meaning Christians have been saying for, you know, the, the better part of 20 years that, well, if y'all would just go to church, he'd have a moral compass. Did, did I sound like the church lady when I said that my best Dana Carvey, well, not
[00:05:43] Nicole: Well. Mm-hmm.
[00:05:45] Jolene: but I, I love that a lot of that, a lot of his focus was, the business of a moral formation, whether that be in schools or organizations or churches or, um, whatever has turned into self-awareness business. [00:06:00] Like there's, there's been this shift that it's not been about how do you, how can you be a member of your community and, and contribute to community to make things better?
[00:06:12] Jolene: But now it's shifted, to no, you gotta look out for you
[00:06:16] Jolene: and
[00:06:17] Nicole: there was,
[00:06:17] Nicole: yeah, they were saying that it, the shift started, he was saying that the shift started after World War ii, there was obviously so much trauma and they trying to process what happened and the science of psychology was starting to blossom. And so it came into, let's look inside, what, what do I need?
[00:06:39] Nicole: What do I feel? What, and so it's almost like, which I feel like it happens with any sort of societal shift, ebbs and flows that like possibly, and I'm just thinking out loud that possibly, It has shifted so far. It has swung the other way that we need to find [00:07:00] a medium where we can look within and understand where we're coming from and create community and think of others and, and believe in service like the, that both of them could be a place of healing and a place of a, a new, modern moral foundation.
[00:07:22] Nicole: Because what I thought was interesting, Jolene, was that he kept, at the very beginning of the article, he was talking about Ben Franklin. He had a great quote about Ben Franklin. Like, we're totally flawed and we need rules. And I thought it was funny and how you, you know, there were all these. examples of moral code and yet I was listening to it and thinking, but there were so much things that were, so many things that were screwed up and women didn't have any rights and What I did enjoy and get out of this article was how do we create a modern moral compass? cause there was one thing in it. Well, a couple things that struck [00:08:00] me, and it made a lot of sense.
[00:08:03] Nicole: He talked about college students and the goals and that in 1967. 85% were motivated to develop a meaningful philosophy of life. And by 2015 being financially well off became the leading life goal that 82% said wealth was their goal. In 2008 people were asked, as in college students were asked about their morality and they said they had never had to think about it, about what was right and what was wrong.
[00:08:40] Nicole: That my teachers avoid conflict like the plague, which I find fascinating because we're in this place now of the US and we conservative, liberal, um, you know, the, the, the othering
[00:08:56] Nicole: that we are doing and that it [00:09:00] makes. I've heard it from my nieces. I don't, I don't know if you heard it from your daughters, the, the sense of Oh yeah, we don't talk about that stuff in school.
[00:09:09] Jolene: Oh, right.
[00:09:10] Nicole: no. ' and I'm thinking, isn't that what school is for? the thing I wanna read, if you don't mind, which I loved, was he brought up, there's a book from this woman named Iris Murdoch called The Sovereignty of Good.
[00:09:26] Nicole: And he was saying that he thought this was the best modern approach to building character. She argues we go about our days with self-centered, self-serving eyes. We see and judge people in ways that satisfy our own ego. We diminish and stereotype and ignore reducing other people to bit players in our own all consuming personal drama.
[00:09:50] Nicole: But we become morally better as we learn to see others deeply as we learn to envelop others in the kind of patient caring [00:10:00] regard that makes them feel seen, heard, and understood. I become a better person as I become more curious about those around me as I become more skilled in seeing from their point of view.
[00:10:14] Nicole: As I learn to perceive you with a patient and loving regard, I will tend to treat you well.
[00:10:20] Jolene: Okay. So then do you go back to, because I think one of the things that he, he talked about was, was that psychology's goal is mental health, not moral growth. And so do you go back to kind of what we're, what we're being taught now from uh, um, um, being healthy mentally that we are to be consumed? Um, whatever feels good to me is moral, you know, I mean, like, like it's, it's up to me for me to decide what is morally correct instead of societal norms.
[00:10:58] Nicole: you know, it's such a good question [00:11:00] because I think psychology can be incredible and really healing and really amazing. I, I also don't think everyone's a very good therapist. Um, right. And so,
[00:11:12] Jolene: Because I Can I tell you, one of the things that I think that, um, and, and this is just from a personal experience, that I'm, I'm hearing that there is this movement, um, within the, psychology, psychiatry. therapists, um, now dealing with, you know, these 20 and 30 year olds, the words that are being used now are, you know, you need to set boundaries and you need to set, um, you need to think about yourself and other people.
[00:11:47] Jolene: What what you expect for yourself needs to be honored instead of what other people want and, and all this. And so like, there's this whole movement that the segment of the population is [00:12:00] alienating their family because they're being.
[00:12:05] Jolene: Talked to in their therapy sessions to just develop your own sense, and it's your boundaries, and it's your right to say what is acceptable for you and your family. And, and I say that this is a, a personal experience because, I look at it at, at how it affected me, and I'm thinking, no, what, what you're forgetting here is to honor in, in, in this case, is to honor your grandmother.
[00:12:34] Jolene: Like you have enough respect for your grandmother that she has asked you that she wants you to do something, we are going to do that because your grandmother has asked for it. And I love and respect your grandmother. So just because it's something that we don't want to do, we're gonna do it because we honor and love her and respect her.
[00:12:54] Jolene: But on the other hand. This other person is saying, no, you need [00:13:00] to create boundaries. And if you don't want to do that, don't do it. Because that is your decision to do that. And, and I'm thinking, we're, we're forgetting about this a a about thinking about the other person. And we're only thinking about ourselves in that scenario.
[00:13:13] Nicole: I mean, I think that, the idea of creating boundaries, I think, which I think is important, I think it's been, um, misconstrued. I think it's been overused. we're really, I feel like in an extreme time because I'm just going to give an pretend
[00:13:32] Jolene: Yes.
[00:13:33] Nicole: grandmother is an abusive person.
[00:13:36] Nicole: Okay. right. Fair enough. Right. And then the, and, and the person is in therapy and like I, she is beaten me and I could see the, the, the therapist say, you know what? You're allowed to say no, you need to protect yourself, blah, blah, blah. But we have taken all of this, um, therapeutic lingo and I'm a huge proponent of therapy.
[00:13:57] Nicole: It has really helped me. I've had [00:14:00] marriage counseling, I had family counseling as a kid. Like I am a huge believer in expressing yourself and learning how to communicate. But I, we are in this like hyper, it's just like hyper partisan, hyper labeled, hyper. All the things that, that it's not all just about you.
[00:14:20] Nicole: And I'm hearing what you're saying, like there is a, a, a, we are forgotten this, mutual respect this like we are in a whole world and your life is much more rich if you actually honor other people.
[00:14:36] Nicole: Too. You're not, you're not not honoring yourself, you're just honoring other people. and I think too, Jolene, it sort of goes into this, we're in this place where, people just can't sit in their discomfort.
[00:14:49] Nicole: They can't Right. They don't like being uncomfortable and they won't do it. I actually brought this as a prop because I'm very excited 'cause, Monica Guzman is [00:15:00] going to be our very first guest on. We've got to talk. Uh, she's coming on a couple weeks and I'm really excited for us to pick her brain, but she, I was, I'm rereading her book so I can prepare for her.
[00:15:14] Nicole: And she talks about like this idea, like on Instagram for instance, or social media where someone will say, this is my opinion and unfollow me if you don't like it.
[00:15:26] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:15:27] Nicole: Really? So there's no discourse. No one can,
[00:15:31] Jolene: Yep.
[00:15:32] Nicole: and I'm thinking to myself, oh, I was talking to Josh about it. Like if your opinion is so set in stone that no one can talk to you, no one can give another thought.
[00:15:46] Jolene: Right?
[00:15:47] Nicole: I believe that. Something's wrong.
[00:15:51] Jolene: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:15:53] Nicole: 'cause there's not, there's nothing total.
[00:15:55] Jolene: right? And, and so we've, we've lost the ability to [00:16:00] dissent without having it be anger
[00:16:04] Nicole: we've forgotten the whole person. Right. Jolene like,
[00:16:07] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:16:08] Nicole: like I'm sorry that you don't wanna hang out with your grandmother, you're gonna hang out with your grandmother because it's a kind thing to do. And then actually when you're with your grandmother, you might have a moment where you actually are like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I'm here.
[00:16:19] Nicole: I'm really having a nice time.
[00:16:22] Jolene: Absolutely.
[00:16:23] Nicole: if you don't, so what? Do it anyway.
[00:16:27] Jolene: Right? Just because it's the right thing to do. And so have we lost that, um, that moral compass to say, sometimes you just do things out of respect. You do things out of, out of, um, making another person feel good about themselves.
[00:16:44] Nicole: another thing that came up in the article that I found interesting he said that, you know, we're in this, we're in an era of deep loneliness, which we've talked about before He said in the article that half of Americans say that no one knows them Well, [00:17:00] can you now just think about that, so he was saying that lonely eras are violent eras.
[00:17:07] Nicole: When the pain is not transformed, it gets transmitted that we are in a time of lashing out anger vindictiveness on this. And this is both sides. It has nothing to do with right or left. It is exactly just where our humanity is right now.
[00:17:28] Nicole: And he said that lonely people are seven times more likely to be involved in politics. 'cause it helps them feel a sense of belonging and a sense of purpose. But what I thought was wild was he said, the morality. Is not based on conduct anymore, but where you lie on the political spectrum and so you're either more moral as a liberal or more moral as a conservative, depending on [00:18:00] your tribe.
[00:18:00] Nicole: just liking on Instagram or whatever you're doing. Are we teaching people to um, to feed the hungry or sit with the grieving person? Those are the things we're not teaching anymore. And yes, I'm imagining it happens in church or synagogue or the mosque or, yes, I think there is some religious foundations, but there, I think, you know, I just remember actually Josh put up, made a really good point that it's just striking me that he said, you know, and you can relate to this being a parent, you know, when you have like two and three year olds. And everything is just like I want, I like, it's mine. They're in that like grabby, I'm the most important thing. And then they go to kindergarten and they see that there are other people in class, and this is not about religion at all. It's about a sense of sharing
[00:18:58] Nicole: and community [00:19:00] and being kind to each other and respecting each other.
[00:19:03] Nicole: I am in wholehearted agreement with you, I think, on this, which I'm finding very exciting.
[00:19:11] Jolene: We agree on it.
[00:19:12] Nicole: We agree on it.
[00:19:13] Jolene: No, I agree. And, and, and I, in fact, I had that same quote, uh, written down that seven, that the lonely people are seven times more likely to get involved in politics and that they're seeing politics as a form, a form of social therapy. so you combine that though with the fact that social media rewards, the algorithms, reward, anger, and now you've just, you've created this powder keg and where people are finding then their sense of community with a a, with a political party or, uh, a political, um, issue.
[00:19:49] Jolene: And then you, and so you go to the only social, community that you have and that's online. And the only thing that gets, um, [00:20:00] attention and gets shared and gets likes. Are when the anger, you know, and, and he even talked about, you know, you don't get, you don't get a lot of, you don't go viral for some, for being kind to somebody.
[00:20:11] Jolene: You go viral for yelling at someone, you know. I mean, how many times have we seen the, you know, the airplanes, the people on the airplanes that are, you know, have lost their crap or at, in an airport or a restaurant or, you know, those are the things that we see all the time.
[00:20:25] Nicole: And that's, that was actually in the article about like restaurants, they're now finding that they're throwing out customers once a week that never because, 'cause they were rude. 'cause they've never done that never happened before. Or nurses are leaving the medical profession 'cause people are just being so abusive.
[00:20:42] Nicole: It's like, what? What is happening
[00:20:46] Jolene: So let's go back to the schools. Are we, are we not? Because, and Andy, David Brooks kind of talked about this in, in, um, in the context of schools that we're not teaching. Um, morality in schools [00:21:00] anymore, because they're afraid to offend someone. Is that the, I mean, is that where you have talked about that?
[00:21:07] Jolene: We've gone so far and, and there's been a lot of good that have, that has come about, obviously in the world for, you know, we don't make rude jokes like we used to, and we, you know, we don't make, um, you know, some of the off-color comments that just used to be accepted. Now we've said no, that's, that's offensive.
[00:21:26] Jolene: So, there has been good, that has come from that growth. However, have we gone so far That we've just lost our, you know, that we've lost the moral, again, the, the, the moral clarity to be able to, correct people when they're, when they've said something, um, or done something, or they, you know, have an outburst in class or they, um, you know, were disrespectful to the teacher.
[00:21:53] Jolene: And the teachers are too afraid to, to stop them now. Um, you know, how many times have we seen this even as, [00:22:00] as in young el you know, elementary aged, uh, kids in classrooms where the teachers are now taking everyone else out of the classroom while that one person has a a, has a meltdown, and they have to bring somebody else in to deal with that one person, and they have to take out the other 28 kids out of the classroom and disrupt everybody else because they don't, they're afraid to discipline that child or, you know, control that child.
[00:22:29] Jolene: and, and maybe those are, you know, kids that, um, have a, a greater issue than just moral, Sure, sure, sure. moral clarity. But, but the concept is still the same, you know? I mean, what are you teaching the other kids when you're not correcting 'em?
[00:22:45] Nicole: Not correcting 'em and also not teaching people how to either deescalate a situation, communicate with, um, respect and kindness even when you don't [00:23:00] agree. agree with you, Jolene, because we've labeled each other so much that we can't escape the labels.
[00:23:06] Nicole: Now, now we're in jail. We're in, jail inside our label. and we all make this decision, okay, you're a conservative, you're a liberal, you are black, you are white, you are gay, you are trans, you are this. And so we're not allowed to actually be all the things
[00:23:24] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:24] Nicole: or have a bad day or anything. And, and for fear that the phone will come out and it will be, you will be canceled and all.
[00:23:34] Nicole: And so these teachers and these kids are like, I'm not saying anything.
[00:23:39] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:23:39] Nicole: and maybe these kids are like, now I don't know what to think. I was gonna ask a question, but I'm too scared to, if there was some sort of solution, because the thing that I thought was also interesting was he brought up that all through all of this has happening that the Mr.
[00:23:56] Nicole: Rogers documentary and Ted Lasso are [00:24:00] two of the most watched, most loved, pieces of film television that have come out in this really divisive time that we are craving kindness and connection and I feel like as I was reading this article that. I love the idea that it starts really young, but I also love the idea because I feel like we're in this hyper-partisan time that, I get worried, I guess, that God would just get in there and a lot of people don't want God in the school. we were founded on the separation of church and state, even though it's very blurred right now. So I just, I, and I feel like if you aren't a religious person, that doesn't mean you aren't a good person or have a moral code.
[00:24:53] Nicole: Like we have made everything black and white, right. Everything extreme.
[00:24:58] Jolene: so I would agree that you're [00:25:00] right. It's not, I don't think it's just church, but it was,
[00:25:02] Nicole: But sometimes
[00:25:03] Nicole: it's built in and Boy Scouts.
[00:25:05] Nicole: yes,
[00:25:06] Jolene: Um, it is, it is wanting to be on the school board because, or the city council or, you know, the, your HOA, I mean, you know, it's, it's like,
[00:25:18] Nicole: And having models, having like those church leaders, those scout leaders, those, and as we've seen lately, the school boards are quite bananas now. Like it's all gotten so
[00:25:32] Jolene: Because who wants to be on a school board right now if you're just gonna get yelled at by, you know, some parent, I mean, I mean there like, and, and parents though don't feel like they have any, any say. And so they go berserk at a school board meeting to get attention. And I, I mean, the whole thing is just, uh, here's the other thing that, that he said that I thought was really important too, was the, the polarization that we have right now in [00:26:00] our society. Is taken. So, um, to, to such an extreme that they're seeing opposing views as ill immoral or dangerous. And I see, we see this in political talk, you know, like Donald Trump is a danger. I mean, that we are, this is going to be the last election that we've ever known. I mean, but to go to that extreme then again, just heats up the rhetoric and to, to where, again, if that's your only social connection, that's all you're hearing, then yeah. I can understand why your friend
[00:26:34] Nicole: Yes.
[00:26:34] Jolene: wants to go to Canada and go, I
[00:26:37] Nicole: Forget, forget this. I mean, and she actually has a. Beautiful group of friends. Like she's not one of the people that has no one that knows her. Right. She is a, she, like, she's got a loving, supportive community. And she's still her nervous system is totally upset.
[00:26:55] Nicole: She and I, it's like, time to pull back. Time to
[00:26:59] Jolene: [00:27:00] What about, okay, so what about America? And, and I'm asking you to speak for her, so, I mean, if you don't know I, that's fine. Uh, but what about
[00:27:09] Nicole: What is, what is
[00:27:09] Jolene: experiencing? Yeah. What does she wanna leave and what would leave do for her?
[00:27:15] Nicole: well, so that's interesting because, she is. Experiencing because she has Canadian relatives and what the way they are seeing the news and, and the way she has said that the international community is looking at America and saying, Donald Trump's a dictator. He's going for power. Grab. we are done. And so she is spun out. and I did ask her that. I was like, well, what would you do if you left? And she, and she had, her mom is Canadian and her dad, her dad has passed, but her dad was American and her dad was an activist.
[00:27:58] Nicole: And she [00:28:00] said, you know what, I think my dad would want me to stay and help. And I'm like, okay. I said, that's a beautiful thing. You know, it's, and that is. Totally who she is as a human. And as we talked, it calmed her down. 'cause it was all of a sudden like, wait, I have, power.
[00:28:19] Jolene: I think it goes to this decline in community, you know, I mean, it, that, that she doesn't feel like she's got, I mean, she's got her community. Of friends, but in maybe the community that she works in or um, or volunteers in or, or whatever that, that community, is only dealing with the outrage right now.
[00:28:43] Jolene: Right? I mean, if you've got bad news, that is, that is all, you know, 24 7. If you are, you know, only listening to all the bad news and, and the media is only sensationalizing the outrage, then yeah, I can understand that. [00:29:00] She's absolutely at her wit's end. And so your advice to her to quit watching the news is absolutely spot on.
[00:29:07] Jolene: Like, if you wanted to watch the news for a half hour in the morning and a half hour at night, just to kind of see what's going on and then make dinner and listen to music and go read a book and meet with your friends and go for a walk.
[00:29:20] Nicole: Yes, absolutely. I mean, and she was explaining to me that there's someone in her life that keeps sending her really, um, charged videos
[00:29:31] Nicole: and I, and, and, and here I was like, the years worth therapy comes. And I was like, you need to draw a boundary and tell her no. Right? Because that's like, yeah, that's like, that's
[00:29:43] Jolene: Yeah. That's a, there's your
[00:29:44] Nicole: that, that that is not good for you. And she did, and the person didn't listen. And is continuing to, which makes me think that here we are in this state that people are like [00:30:00] really wound up. Maybe brainwash sounds too dramatic, but could be. We're so manipulated by social media. We are so manipulated. And then honestly, listener and viewer, like, your life is just gonna go away.
[00:30:16] Nicole: Like it's gonna be 'cause and you're just gonna be busy in a screen. I mean, I love that you're here with us and we want you to be with us and,
[00:30:24] Nicole: and,
[00:30:24] Nicole: and,
[00:30:25] Jolene: be on this
[00:30:26] Nicole: And be on the screen and talk to us and try to figure out how we can move forward. Because life
[00:30:34] Jolene: because you are being manipulated. You are being manipulated, and you've got to take control of your own happiness.
[00:30:44] Nicole: that's right. That's right. And that you wanna belong and, and you wanna be involved in politics. Okay. You wanna be informed. Okay? Understand that we've, you know, in the last, uh, seven, eight months that we have [00:31:00] been on the air, we have realized how much we have had to, where is this source? How is it being talked about?
[00:31:08] Nicole: Wait, wait a minute, and then stepping back and saying, well, what do I feel? Yes, I'm a liberal, but what the hell does that mean? I'm Nicole with all of my thoughts and my feelings and my experiences, which is so much more than being a liberal, just like Jolene. She's so much more and has like, right?
[00:31:29] Jolene: but also I, yes, 100%, but also listening to the other side
[00:31:35] Nicole: Yes,
[00:31:36] Jolene: that's the other part that if you're only, we've said this a hundred times, if you're only watching. The, the news station that you, that aligns with your values or is, um, aligned to a certain point of view and all of your social media is only feeding you a point of view.
[00:31:55] Jolene: got to get out of that cycle because it does not serve you. And you've [00:32:00] got to be able to either have a conversation with someone who thinks differently and, and, and listen with empathy and, and ask questions, and, and that's what we're, we're not doing right now. Mm-hmm.
[00:32:12] Nicole: And also, someone sent me, it was a daily show thing, which was very liberal, but, it was one, I was a comedian Ronnie Chang, who I adore and how he, you know, they tour as comedians all over the country and how. He loves this country and like he would go into middle America and he's like, everyone is nice.
[00:32:34] Nicole: Like when you think about being in person when, and even if it's an exercise of, of imagining before you write that mean comment on YouTube or Facebook or Instagram, imagine take a deep breath and imagine that person sitting right in front of you with an open, smiling [00:33:00] face ready to listen to you. Are you going to actually say those mean things?
[00:33:06] Nicole: You might not. And so what he was saying, he was like, it's so different when you're in person. all I got was kindness and he's like, and I trust that, that more of us are good in this country. It has nothing to do with red or blue. It has to just do with that. We all want very similar things.
[00:33:30] Nicole: We want to be seen and loved and heard and understood maybe and safe. We all want that
[00:33:38] Jolene: can we talk about a good for your
[00:33:39] Nicole: of Of course, of course. Would you like to go first?
[00:33:43] Jolene: if I could please? Because it is tied in so well. it is what could go right.
[00:33:50] Jolene: progress network.org.
[00:33:53] Jolene: And the, the title of the article is We Haven't Given Up on Gen Z. it talks about, [00:34:00] um, all of the good things that the Gen Zers are doing. so, they're, here's, here's the list.
[00:34:07] Jolene: They're pri prioritizing wellness. They're smoking less, they're doing less drugs, and they're drinking less than other generations, prior generations. They are committing less crime. There's less burglary amongst the, the Gen Zers, less robberies, um, less, um, uh, steal stolen cars than boomers X-ers or, or millennials.
[00:34:33] Jolene: They're looking at the nineties to create the future that they want. So they are going back to vinyl records and board games and, um, photo albums, that they're looking at the nineties as what they want for their future. they are, um, choosing trades over college that more gen Zers are now looking after high school, looking at trade [00:35:00] school, um, at a higher rate than going to college, than pri uh, than other prior um,
[00:35:07] Nicole: Is that, is that because of the, uh, the cost?
[00:35:11] Jolene: It, it has to do with cost, it has to do with ai, um, and looking at what are those jobs that are, are going to be, um, most available in the future. this is fantastic. Women age 25 to 34 are making 95 cents to every man. This is the first time in history that women are at that high of a rate making. What men are
[00:35:39] Jolene: in that age group?
[00:35:40] Jolene: Yep.
[00:35:41] Nicole: and this is on Progress network.org.
[00:35:44] Jolene: Yep. and the last one is that 35 states are restricting phones in schools, and what an influence that is making on kids,
[00:35:54] Nicole: Thank God. I mean, can you imagine being in school with [00:36:00] a fucking phone? Sorry Linda. I mean, come on.
[00:36:05] Jolene: Absolutely
[00:36:06] Nicole: honestly, Jolene, the fact that it ever was okay is mind boggling to me and with the parents are like, I need to find my kid. We found each other fine without the phone.
[00:36:16] Jolene: I remember saying to my girls, no, I want you to have your phone in case there's a school shooting. I need to get ahold
[00:36:23] Nicole: I know
[00:36:23] Nicole: that
[00:36:24] Jolene: I mean, is that, I mean, that is the, that is the, that is the thought process. But honestly, I, I, I mean, I can't imagine having a, as an eight, as a 16-year-old, um, being able to not be distracted by a phone.
[00:36:41] Jolene: Why are we asking them to make that decision? Why,
[00:36:44] Nicole: No. And they and their brains, they don't have the, uh, maturity or cognitive skills to say, you know what, mom and dad, you're right, I'm not gonna
[00:36:54] Jolene: I'm gonna put my phone
[00:36:56] Nicole: Yes, I will do that. It will be fine.
[00:36:59] Jolene: it's almost [00:37:00] like the, the Gen Zers are looking at how bad, you know, our society has, like, have we, have we gotten to the, you know, bottom of the barrel here, and they're finally the ones going, eh, eh, I feel like I'm gonna do some, some things differently.
[00:37:17] Nicole: I love vinyl, first of all. this is a segue, everybody, when we were in Japan, um, we were in Tokyo and we went to this bar that was a thing called Tokyo Music Bar. And you, you pay a cover of like $6 and you go in, you don't have to drink. They do have an amazing cocktail.
[00:37:37] Nicole: You don't have to drink. and they do have food if you want, but they had this beautiful wall of like a sound system and thousands of albums. And you sit there and you listen to records, they have a dj and you're just like, you're having conversation and you're listening to music, like you're hanging out in your living room.
[00:37:56] Nicole: And it was so much fun. And they're doing it in New [00:38:00] York now too. Thank you for sharing that, Jolene, that really,
[00:38:04] Jolene: I know.
[00:38:05] Nicole: that
[00:38:05] Nicole: gives my heart some hope. It really
[00:38:07] Jolene: I agree.
[00:38:08] Nicole: really does. And honestly, this conversation really gave me hope. It was very cup filling to today. I hope listener and viewer it, it was cup filling to you.
[00:38:19] Nicole: We will, put this article in the show notes. I will do my best to put as a gift link and hope that it works. If not, you can, you can easily, uh, do the 30 day trial and, and just remember to. Unsubscribe if you don't wanna keep it subscribing to the Atlantic. Although there's some pretty amazing articles and, and photography exhibits and really cool things, um, that they offer at the Atlantic.
[00:38:45] Nicole: I wanted to share a good for the soul. this woman, Brooke Berman, who is actually in two weeks, she is, she has done an interview with me and Jolene and it's very exciting. She's been incredibly [00:39:00] generous with her time and her questions and her trying to unravel and get her head around what we're doing here.
[00:39:06] Nicole: Um, but she has a substack and she has a friend that also has a substack. And so she sent me, A new media source that I think is, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is perfect for Good for the Soul. So this Good for the Soul is called Ground News, which is www ground news. And I will put this in the show notes.
[00:39:32] Nicole: it's not so much a media organization, but they compile, uh, the day's news from every source imaginable, which is over 50,000 sources. ground news, um, is more like a media literacy tool. So with each news story, they provide you a list of which publications are covering that news, how.
[00:39:54] Nicole: Those publications are covered and where their bias tends to be who [00:40:00] funds them and how factual they are,
[00:40:02] Jolene: Oh wow.
[00:40:04] Nicole: They also show how much coverage any particular news story is getting on the right and the left, and which news is falling into blind spots for either side. I guess once you subscribe, you can like log in where you are and focus on the local news of yours area as well. how, what a cool thing. I mean, I'm assuming if they're tracking 50,000 sources a day, they're using ai.
[00:40:32] Nicole: They ha they have to
[00:40:33] Jolene: I was just gonna say that. Yeah, I mean, that's
[00:40:36] Nicole: right. They have to be. do you have any other thoughts about our topic today, Jolene, before we do our, would you rathers.
[00:40:43] Jolene: I think we continue to dig in deeper each week with, with things that, that we're questioning, that we're not just taking at face value and, and we're really kind of trying to figure out why things are the way that they are and, [00:41:00] and not just, um, accepting things the way that, that, um, they're presented to us.
[00:41:07] Jolene: And that's really the most important thing is, is really just trying to, to dig in deeper and go, wait, does this, does this serve me or doesn't it? And if it doesn't get rid of it.
[00:41:17] Nicole: Right. And thinking of yourself also as we are all together. We are all people. Yes, we are all Americans, but even that as a label, We're asking each other to do the hard work, but you actually get more out of it. When you treat people with respect, your life is better. You feel better. it's a richer experience. So even if you're into the eye, eye, eye, do it for the eye. Then it'll make you feel better. Being kind to
[00:41:51] Nicole: people and being curious, I think being curious and, and also understanding like when you have that reaction, Ooh, [00:42:00] I don't agree.
[00:42:01] Nicole: Take a deep breath and ask why
[00:42:05] Jolene: Yeah, Would you rather drink from a toilet or pee in a litter box?
[00:42:20] Jolene: Oh my God.
[00:42:21] Nicole: Listen, I was a little stressed out about today's conversation and I was feeling not very hopeful and I was like, I need to do something either gross or light or both. And so that's what I gave you girl.
[00:42:31] Jolene: there it is. Well, I guess I'd rather pee in a litter box.
[00:42:35] Nicole: Yeah. Who wants to drink from a toilet? No
[00:42:37] Jolene: would you drink from a
[00:42:38] Nicole: I don't know. Peeing from a litter box. I mean gnarly.
[00:42:43] Jolene: now? Do I have to do it like a cat? I mean, I don't, like, I'm not
[00:42:46] Jolene: really sure
[00:42:47] Jolene: like, physically how to do
[00:42:49] Nicole: Well don't cats do it the same way we do it,
[00:42:53] Jolene: Well, I don't mean am
[00:42:54] Nicole: don't they? Squat,
[00:42:55] Jolene: like squat?
[00:42:56] Nicole: I guess. And then you have to like use your [00:43:00] to
[00:43:00] Nicole: scratch.
[00:43:01] Jolene: it. Yeah. To bury it. Okay. Okay. All right. Would you rather
[00:43:09] Jolene: have everyone be brutally honest with you, or have everyone be fake Nice.
[00:43:17] Nicole: Oh, brutally honest. I hate fake. Nice. Oh, fake nice. I smell fake. Nice. I do not, I do not trust a person who is fake. Nice. And you know, brutally honest is weird too. 'cause when someone's like, I wanna be honest with you, like, that's their fucking opinion. It's not honest. Like, I don't really like that either.
[00:43:41] Nicole: But if I have to choose, yeah. I don't, I don't like fake. Nice. Like, I, I really, when I'm meeting in person or becoming a friend, I'm like, I wanna know what's really going on in there. Then I feel like I can [00:44:00] trust you or I can.
[00:44:01] Jolene: But you're, I know, but you said that you're a sativa.
[00:44:04] Nicole: I am girl. But don't gimme fake Nice. 'cause you're, because fake nice people seem more mean
[00:44:11] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:44:13] Nicole: and brutally honest is mean too. Why?
[00:44:18] Nicole: Why is America so mean?
[00:44:22] Jolene: right.
[00:44:24] Nicole: I don't know. What would you choose? Fake. Nice.
[00:44:29] Jolene: No, I think I'd want everybody just to be fake. Nice.
[00:44:32] Jolene: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because then nobody can be mean, and then you don't have the mean things on social media and the mean people and the mean, just everybody just pretend
[00:44:42] Nicole: Yeah. I can't, I just don't trust that.
[00:44:45] Jolene: Yeah. No, that is true.
[00:44:47] Nicole: All right, girl.
[00:44:48] Jolene: I know. That's why we play the game.
[00:44:50] Nicole: that's why we play the game. Well, thank you
[00:44:53] Nicole: guys for, uh, listening and, uh. Going on this ride with us, and please, uh, [00:45:00] give us a thumbs up on YouTube and like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Did you wanna say something, Jolene?
[00:45:06] Jolene: I just wanted to say thank you to our, um, to our subscriber, our listener, our, our person who sent us this article.
[00:45:15] Nicole: Yes,
[00:45:16] Jolene: And, you know, we'd love, I, I love getting this kind of stuff and, and, and asking us to look into or to talk about something.
[00:45:23] Nicole: yes
[00:45:24] Jolene: please feel free to, to contact us and, um, give us something to think about.
[00:45:29] Nicole: Yes. And you can contact us at, we've got to talk.com, Instagram, Facebook. Gosh, what else? Uh,
[00:45:37] Jolene: could just call Nicole on her
[00:45:38] Nicole: Yeah. Her number is
[00:45:40] Nicole: don't do that. Oh my gosh. Okay. Time to go. Uh, thank you guys. I'll see you on the other side, Joe. Goodbye.
[00:45:50] Jolene: See ya.
[00:45:51] Nicole: Goodbye. [00:46:00]
