Gun Control: When Both Sides Are Right (And Wrong)
Gun control debates usually end with people screaming past each other about the Second Amendment and dead children. But what happens when you actually sit down and try to understand why people feel so strongly on both sides? Today we're tackling America's most polarizing issue, and honestly, neither of us walked away feeling like we had all the answers. Maybe that's the point.
I (Nicole) don't want a gun. I don't want my friends to have guns. What I want is to feel safe, and for everyone I care about to feel safe too. That seems reasonable, right? But here's where it gets complicated - my version of safety might look completely different from Jolene's version of safety.
Jolene's perspective hit me hard: if we criminalize guns, only criminals will have guns. It sounds like a bumper sticker, but when you really think about it, there's uncomfortable logic there. The people who follow gun laws aren't the ones we're worried about. The people who don't follow any laws aren't going to suddenly start following gun laws just because we make more of them.
This is the part of the gun debate that makes my head spin. I want fewer guns in circulation because I think that makes everyone safer. But what if making guns illegal just disarms the people who would use them responsibly while doing nothing to stop the people who would use them to hurt others? What if my vision of safety actually makes good people less safe?
Jolene argues that law-abiding citizens need the ability to protect themselves and their families. When she puts it that way, it doesn't sound unreasonable. It sounds like basic human instinct - the desire to defend the people you love. But then I think about mass shootings, domestic violence, and suicide rates, and I wonder if more guns really make anyone safer.
Here's what's frustrating about this debate: both sides have legitimate fears. I'm terrified of gun violence. Jolene's terrified of being defenseless against gun violence. We're both afraid of the same thing, but we've reached opposite conclusions about how to address it.
The data doesn't make it easier. Gun control advocates point to countries with strict gun laws and lower gun violence rates. Gun rights advocates point to cities with strict gun laws and high crime rates. Everyone has statistics that support their position, and everyone has explanations for why the other side's statistics don't matter.
What struck me most about our conversation was how much we actually agreed on. We both want to keep guns away from dangerous people. We both want to reduce violence. We both want families to feel safe in their homes and communities. The disagreement isn't about goals - it's about methods.
Maybe the real problem isn't guns or gun laws. Maybe it's that we've turned a complex policy issue into a tribal identity marker. If you're liberal, you must support gun control. If you're conservative, you must oppose it. There's no room for nuance, no space for people who support both gun rights and gun safety measures.
But what if there were? What if we could have background checks and concealed carry permits? What if we could fund mental health programs and protect Second Amendment rights? What if we stopped treating every gun policy proposal like an existential threat to either freedom or safety?
The truth is, neither extreme position is realistic. We're not going to ban all guns in America - there are more guns than people, and the Second Amendment isn't going anywhere. But we're also not going to solve gun violence by pretending regulations don't work or that more guns automatically equal more safety.
Somewhere in the middle, there might be solutions that actually make people safer without trampling on constitutional rights. But we'll never find them if we keep treating gun policy like a zero-sum game where one side has to completely defeat the other.
I still don't want a gun. Jolene still thinks I should have the right to own one if I change my mind. We both want to live in a country where people don't get shot at schools, churches, and grocery stores. Maybe that's enough common ground to start building something better than what we have now.
The conversation about guns in America isn't going to end anytime soon. But maybe it could get more productive if we stopped assuming the worst about people who disagree with us and started looking for solutions that address everyone's legitimate concerns.
resources mentioned:
Gun Control Organizations:
Brady United: https://www.bradyunited.org/
Giffords: https://giffords.org/
Everytown for Gun Safety: https://www.everytown.org/
Data and News Sources:
USA Facts: https://usafacts.org/
Fox News: https://www.foxnews.com/
Time Magazine Gun Control History: https://newsfeed.time.com/2013/01/16/a-history-of-violence-gun-control-in-the-pages-of-time/slide/july-1989-death-by-gun/
Video and Podcast Content:
YouTube Video: https://youtu.be/DeRSMgFCmUE?si=kkB7nG6FXFozCbHl
The Daily Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000722487869
Products and Services:
Byrna (Non-lethal Defense): https://byrna.com/?pb=0&srsltid=AfmBOorHhS0lPW63kYakRXDPm5uEmUPy_MgnJPHDpJyYp7D-baQ6UkUe
Social Media/Commentary:
Diaper Diplomacy: https://www.instagram.com/diaperdiplomacy/?hl=en
America the Possible: https://www.instagram.com/americathepossible/?hl=en
Historical Reference: Chicago History Museum - Tylenol Murders:https://www.chicagohistory.org/tylenol-murders/
LINKS:
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[00:00:00] Jolene: we wanted to start by saying this episode is a, an episode that we talk about gun control. And it's something that we felt was really important to talk about, however, we recorded it a couple of weeks ago. And in light of the Charlie Kirk assassination and the school shooting in Colorado, um, this was a discussion that we had prior to those events.
[00:00:23] Jolene: So, um, we appreciate you taking a listen to this episode, but keeping that in mind.
[00:00:28] Nicole: as this unfortunately is, seems to be the state of our country these days, it's really important I think, to. acknowledge each other's humanity. Uh, we got a lot of feedback, um, a lot of positive feedback from the Kirk episode about, for Jolene and I to keep going and to keep talking and that it's really important that our voices are out there to, to, for the [00:01:00] communities to come join us and, uh.
[00:01:03] Nicole: Thank you for those people that did. I understand how painful this is on both sides. And we just wanna let you know that there is a place for you here just tell a friend, just one friend each time you listen and watch. you know, Jolene and I truly believe there are more of us out there, uh, than the social media noise And, um.
[00:01:24] Nicole: We want you to come with us so we can all try to heal. Heal.
[00:01:29] Jolene: So enjoy this episode and let us know what you think in the comments. Thank you.
[00:01:34] Nicole: Thank you. She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money. And we say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud.
[00:01:55] Nicole: Well, hello Jolene.
[00:01:56] Jolene: Hello my friend Nicole,
[00:01:58] Nicole: we are talking [00:02:00] about guns and gun control. it's something that I think I'm pretty sure I brought up that I really wanted to do, when the, uh, shooting at the NFL building in New York happened and. My dear friend, uh, had left the building moments before and he did have a colleague that got shot and is alive, the only person that was shot and is alive. I was like, okay, we gotta talk about this thing. Um, I'm just gonna say I am very nervous to talk half of this topic.
[00:02:37] Nicole: I have done, so much research and one thing that I feel like is a total gift about this podcast is that we pick these topics and it forces me to do a ton of research. And I realized I know so little about guns. Uh, being a liberal growing up in Northern California and the Bay Area, [00:03:00] living in New York City most of my entire life, I knew so little about guns.
[00:03:07] Nicole: And I will put in the show notes the, the, uh, the three organizations that I, I did I deep dove into. Uh, the websites were, uh, Brady United, giffords.org and everytown.org. And. I really encourage everyone listening to the podcast that doesn't know about guns, that it's really important to educate yourself.
[00:03:34] Nicole: 'cause I am just scared of them. That that is, that was my experience didn't wanna be around them. Don't have never really seen one in person. I've obviously have never shot one. the things that I've learned, I, I mean, have a ton of, of course, facts and, and all of the things. But I learned about crime guns, I learned about, straw purchases. I learned so much [00:04:00] about, about that. 86% of gun dealers are on the up and up, uh, that it's 5% of gun dealers cause 90% of the crimes. like selling illegal guns, not including the trafficking and all of the other stuff. so it, this has been strangely a real gift for me to be able to come to this conversation with you and not say, uh, and come in with some new knowledge.
[00:04:34] Nicole: Also, learning that all of these organizations, background checks, they were all started by Republicans who were gun owners and were belonged to the NRA. These were not like raging liberals. Let's stop the guns. It started in this world and then some of the loosening of the gun laws were also. Two [00:05:00] major ones were gw, which kind of surprised me honestly, and we can talk about this later, but the T Heart Act in 2003 and later in 2005, like empowering gun manufacturers in a way that, um, makes it really difficult to, to find, you like to use the word bad actors.
[00:05:18] Nicole: To find the bad actors in order to, curb the gun violence. And I'm just gonna start this conversation and I wanna hear, I absolutely wanna hear what you have to say. That I am not suggesting that we take people's guns away.
[00:05:32] Jolene: Right, because I was gonna start with that too. I wanted to start with like where you are. Uh, so just to give some background on where I am with Yes. didn't grow up with guns. My parents didn't have guns in the house. Um, my boyfriend in high school was a big, was a hunter. And so, I mean, I would go out and hunt with him.
[00:05:51] Jolene: And so I've, I've shot, Rifles say, I don't even know the word to use, you know, this a rifle. Um, [00:06:00] but it wasn't until we lived in New Orleans that for safety, that Jeff and I were like, dang, maybe we need to have a gun in the house. So, um, and so I'll talk about what we have, but, I mean, I grew up with guns and I, and I think, you know, we used our, our friend, um, my friend Susie and, and our mutual, the mutual friend that, um, Susie and I have Bryn Brown as a, as a good resource for, um, you know, a lot of, because, Susie's dad is, owns a gun shop.
[00:06:28] Jolene: So Susie grew up with guns and all that. But growing up in the Midwest. Um, as, as Susie talked about, they, they offered gun safety courses in our high school. I mean, you know, we had, you know, kids were showing up in, with their pickup trucks, with the rifles in, you know, in their back window. I mean, which was, which was, I mean, not, I mean, everybody just did it.
[00:06:50] Jolene: I mean, it was just, it was, it was nothing like, it wasn't unusual
[00:06:54] Nicole: Well, it was part of your, it was part of your culture.
[00:06:56] Jolene: Exactly. And so I think that, and, and that's [00:07:00] something that Susie had brought up too, was, you know, there's such a difference between, you know, urban gun ownership and rural gun ownership. So, uh, there's so much to dig into.
[00:07:10] Jolene: Okay. So let's start with some standard, um, statements. So you said you, you don't believe that we should abolish all guns.
[00:07:19] Nicole: No, I don't. after, especially after everything that I was reading and also speaking to Susie, which was an incredible RESO resource because her dad was a gun, or is a gun dealer, was a gun dealer, and she was around it, and she owns a bunch of guns, which I mean, I'm not gonna lie, it freaks me out. It freaks me out. Right. And, and when she's like, I wouldn't feel. Safe without a gun. I, I look at it more as a social experiment. I find it fascinating because of where I grew up and where I've lived. That seems bananas. But I can also say, well, if [00:08:00] I lived in the middle of nowhere and I was, you know, a, I learned how to hunt early and that, of course that makes sense.
[00:08:10] Nicole: And so all I, were all, I feel like before I started doing research, all I could think about was like, okay, in the liberal media, were told, I'm making up this number. 85% of gun owners want things to be legal. Like they believe in gun control, they believe in background checks. And I'm thinking, well then why isn't this working?
[00:08:35] Nicole: And it wasn't until I did the research did I start to understand why it's not working
[00:08:41] Jolene: do you think there should be a universal background check
[00:08:46] Nicole: I don't exactly know what that term means and, but would I like someone to have a background checked? Yes, please. we all have to take a test to drive a car. and, and I get, I get like in rural communities, I [00:09:00] just remember growing. There was a girl that had a ranch growing up and, and like they learned how to drive when they were 13.
[00:09:06] Nicole: They might not have gotten the license, but that was, that was life on the ranch versus out in the world. So my feeling is like, you drive, you have a license to drive, and you get a license to own a gun and that you take safety courses. I mean. I think that liberals wouldn't be so afraid of them if they, if we were exposed to that as well.
[00:09:32] Jolene: okay, so, and I say universal background check, because right now it's up to each state. There, there's not a federal, um, mandate for, for universal background checks. So if there were, um, if there were a federal law, that was universal, that you had to adhere to certain, um, like you said, uh, a background check then [00:10:00] as, and, and doing some type of safety course and all that, you would be, you would be okay with that.
[00:10:06] Nicole: I would be a thousand percent okay with it because what you would.
[00:10:11] Jolene: Yeah. Oh yeah. See, this is what, and this is my whole thing. Let's start, let's start with what we agree on because I think this is, you've done all this research and, and, and I think when we first talked, you just said this, when we first talked about this, you were like, ah, my God, this is horrible.
[00:10:31] Jolene: We need to have gun control. Because you had a knee jerk reaction to an event that had happened and, and, and we're all, we're all so sick and tired of, of the damn gun violence. I mean, there's, there's, I mean, there's not a single Republican who's going, no, I, I think it's okay. I mean, you know, so we, that's where we agree there is too much gun violence.
[00:10:52] Jolene: We all agree with that. So then when liberals say we need to have gun control, that puts up, you know, that puts up the Republicans going, [00:11:00] no, that's not the answer.
[00:11:01] Nicole: don't take my guns away.
[00:11:03] Jolene: Right like this. That's not the answer to this event. And I think there's so many times that liberals take a horrific shooting and then they say, we need to take guns away. We need to, we need to do something with gun control. And that's not the answer. And so we have to get to what the answers are.
[00:11:21] Nicole: I mean this is such a complicated issue, but I feel like the, if you call it universal background checks, if it was a federal, like every state had to do it, I think it would curb so much gun violence because in the research that I have done, there's so much, and it was interesting, Jolene, 'cause it reminded me of the, the abortion issue
[00:11:43] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:11:44] Nicole: and the states that you have all these 50 states with all these kinds of people all living together with all different beliefs and so.
[00:11:54] Nicole: Now because it's state run, there's all these workarounds and [00:12:00] because, and that's how the gun issue is, so that 22 states, have, uh, background checks, just 22.
[00:12:09] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:12:10] Nicole: you can go to Wisconsin, which doesn't have any background checks and purchase the gun, then go to another state, like California, whatever, and do the crime.
[00:12:22] Nicole: And oh, well, like there's, there's ways, there's so many loopholes and like I have so much in my mind, I, what, how do you wanna move forward?
[00:12:31] Jolene: Okay. Well, I, I, I think we have to find a starting point, so, Does the Second Amendment mean for you that everybody has the right to, to own guns? Um, do you think there's any workaround with that?
[00:12:47] Jolene: Do you have a problem with that at all?
[00:12:48] Nicole: well, I'm very cur curious what you think I'm, as you think that there, we have a right to bear arms.
[00:12:54] Jolene: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a constitutional amendment or a constitution. Uh, [00:13:00] it's one of the foundations of our country. because I think a lot of liberals think, well, that's an old, that's an old concept. That was a concept that was, um, that was written or was developed because, for hunting and, and all that.
[00:13:17] Jolene: In reality, it wasn't, and again, Susie talked a little bit about this and from the research that I did too, that I have been doing too, that, if you look at, you know, we were coming out of, of Great Britain and we didn't wanna be controlled by the, you know, where the government was controlling.
[00:13:32] Jolene: And it was, we, the people. That, um, we needed that written into the Constitution so the government didn't have more control over us as citizens. and I, and I think that still holds true today. I mean, because I would even say for liberals, you know, what if Trump decided to, to say, okay, I'm sending in the National Guard to take over everybody.
[00:13:58] Jolene: Wouldn't you as a, [00:14:00] as a liberal wanna go, wait a minute, no, I gotta defend
[00:14:03] Nicole: I mean, I appreciated Susie's point for those of you, um, listening and watching. Susie is Jolene's best friend. Uh, she is an avid gun owner. Her dad was a gun dealer and she loves sending really long Marco Polos while she's driving. Which makes me so nervous every time. And she wants, and so what ended up happening in the research, I was like, girl, I need to understand, I wanna pick your brain about what your experience is.
[00:14:37] Nicole: So she gave us a plethora of information. Right, Joe? I mean, it was like,
[00:14:43] Jolene: Okay. But to be fair, okay, but to be fair, she's not looking at her phone while she's driving. Her phone is sitting in a stand, and so she's driving and
[00:14:51] Nicole: thank God, so, and, and to answer your question, liberals, this liberal, and I'll speak for some of [00:15:00] us, I think the second amendment, it's more about, okay, when it was written, most people had muskets.
[00:15:10] Nicole: I think where liberals have a really hard time, I think a lot of us can go, okay, I understand rural America, I understand hunting, but it's the automatic weapons. Those, like, like the ones that the guy went to, the NFL building and the the magazines, those, those weapons that you see in video games, um, that kids see in video games.
[00:15:36] Nicole: They're, they've, they're very glamorous, you know, and sexy. And I imagine they're really fun to shoot I don't think that we need them. That's, that's my opinion. I know I'm gonna get a ton of pushback from that, but that's how I feel. And I think a lot of liberals feel that way. Like, Hey, I don't [00:16:00] think that they imagined that was a right
[00:16:04] Nicole: And I also understand Susie's point and, and agree with you the more, again, that we're doing this podcast and really looking at history and not the, um, the glossy version. Like we came to this country and killed a lot of people and took a lot of land. And this was our land. Like this was like America. And we're Americans are like, don't tell me what to do.
[00:16:28] Nicole: This is who we are. And I don't know if I'm gonna get pushback from what I just said to you, 'cause I feel like I am with
[00:16:34] Jolene: Yeah, I don't agree, but that's
[00:16:35] Nicole: Okay. people were leaving Britain trying from their own sense of being persecuted and people felt that they needed to defend themselves and they were, created an uprising against the British.
[00:16:49] Nicole: Militia and, and so I understand that part and I think why it's so tricky with liberals and, and Susie said it so eloquently [00:17:00] actually, it was, was just about, just reminding me over and over again that we are from different cultures and we don't remember that when we have this discussion
[00:17:11] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:17:13] Nicole: I think, I, I feel like if we had more conversations about gun control, we're like the rancher says to the city girl in New York City, I understand why this might scare you.
[00:17:25] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:17:26] Nicole: I understand it's not for maybe for you. Can you understand why it's okay for me? And then you go from there.
[00:17:34] Jolene: Yep, a hundred percent. I, I will say too, the, the one thing that I have that I have learned to appreciate, and especially now living in Missouri is, um, the girl that does my hair, Lynette, who's fantastic by the way, she grew up in Missouri. Her husband grew up in Missouri.
[00:17:51] Jolene: I mean, they grew up in this area. Um, she's got three little kids and she said as, and she and I were talking about guns and she said, you know, we. [00:18:00] Teach our kids, um, they have a five-year-old boy and she goes even with his little, um, when he's got a water gun, we've taught him, you never spray it at somebody directly.
[00:18:11] Jolene: You never shoot it at somebody directly. And when you're carrying it, it's always pointed down. She goes, I mean, those are like, that is basic gun, um, education that we teach our kids with a water gun when they're, you know, when they're two years old. so you're right. I think that those people who grew up with guns and, and think that it's, it's no big deal because they, they have educated themselves. And I think that's the, that's the biggest difference is, is learning to respect the power of a gun. And, um, when I went to, so when we were living in New Orleans and, um, there were a bunch of coaches wives that, um, we got together and went to a shooting range.
[00:18:54] Jolene: And it was most of us who had never, um, there was one wife who was ex-military, so [00:19:00] she obviously had lots of gun training, but the rest of us were kind of like, I don't, I don't know that much about a gun. And so we shotgun, we were shooting pistols, um, in the shooting range. And I remember thinking like the power.
[00:19:15] Jolene: This little thing was so incredibly intense that you've got to have just a buttload of, of respect for this thing and to be able to actually have a gun, like learn how to use it and, and you know, all the things For sure.
[00:19:33] Nicole: I mean, I think one thing, Jolene, that I'm just sort of struck by is that is it fair to say that I feel like the way we have been. Pitted against each other and divided is that most liberals think that, I mean, we get that. We, we hear the, the statistic that you want safety, but we don't really talk about it.
[00:19:57] Nicole: There is this, because there's this sense of don't [00:20:00] take my guns away. Don't like, and so it sort of ends the conversation like, I'm really like thrilled and surprised that you're like, oh, I want safety too.
[00:20:11] Jolene: Right, because none of us want gun violence. I mean, that's the bottom line. I mean, I don't, I don't think that that's, so,
[00:20:19] Nicole: I think, I think Jolene too, sorry to interrupt you, but I think one of the reasons it's, it's striking me is that with a lot of these like school shootings and these horrible tragedies, the, the thoughts and prayers get thrown out, you know, and it, which drives me bananas and I'm like. Okay, we gotta do something like all of us.
[00:20:39] Nicole: We have to do something. And it was quite shocking to me that like after, um, with Sandy Hook with the little babies. I think I, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think everybody thought, well, something's gotta happen now, you know? And, and which is reminding me just, just about bureaucracy and how [00:21:00] long things take. And one thing that I thought was fascinating, if you don't mind me sharing,
[00:21:04] Nicole: Brady United is one of the organizations, uh, that I did a lot of research, but it was started actually by this man. It was called the, um, national Council to Control Handguns and this man named, uh, Nelson t Pete Shields, he was an NRA member, a Republican, and a gun owner. And his 23-year-old son, Nick, was shot and killed in 1974.
[00:21:33] Nicole: he said he understood that preventing gun violence wasn't about politics or what side of the aisle you were on, but about championing sensible solutions to save lives. And so I was, and, and then.
[00:21:47] Nicole: When Brady, when the, uh, assassination attempt of Reagan happened in 1981, Brady and his wife merged with this person, and they were [00:22:00] also gun owners, NRA members and lifelong Republicans. And he was saying, or on the Brady website, it said the background checks were introduced in 1988. It took seven votes over six years and three presidencies to get the bill passed.
[00:22:18] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:22:19] Nicole: and he was like a living, breathing reason. Like he was paralyzed and just became this strong, gun control or background check advocate. Yeah. And that, it's just, it's fascinating to me. I guess again, it's about lobbying too, like the gun lobbies are So powerful and I don't really get it. Jolene,
[00:22:43] Jolene: Well, I mean, we've talked about the lobbying. I mean, whether it's big pharma or big food or the guns or, um, nicotine. I mean, you know, those are all really well-funded lobbyists. that's always gonna be part of any [00:23:00] conversation that we have with any legislation.
[00:23:02] Jolene: Where are the lobbyists and follow the money. I think we have to talk about what makes sense for us as, as citizens.
[00:23:10] Nicole: I mean, yes. And if we're dealing with the gun lobbies and this legislation where, where Indiana, oh by the way, you guys, you guys, uh, every town.org has this really cool is the wrong word. It has a map, it has a gun control map, and you click on the states and you could find out everything about what state has what.
[00:23:35] Nicole: And I found that really, really helpful to figure out the discrepancies, like between New York and Indiana, like In 2005, um, this, this bill was passed to give unprecedented immunity to gun manufacturers and, um, ammunition manufacturers. And so that, uh, 34 [00:24:00] states, um, embrace this law. And two, Indiana and Arkansas went even further. And if you try to sue an Indiana or Arkansas gun dealer, you have to pay their, their legal
[00:24:13] Jolene: Legal fees.
[00:24:15] Nicole: I, so, so I, I, I say all of this because yes, we have to deal with it from a, from you and me, but like, I'm super fascinated that you're interested in a federal law because, because there are traffickers, because there's all like, how do, how do we do this? How do
[00:24:34] Jolene: Well, okay,
[00:24:35] Nicole: this out?
[00:24:36] Jolene: okay, because I think that is, that's the really small portion of this conversation. I mean, I don't think having more gun laws, um, is really the answer to anything. Um, I
[00:24:50] Nicole: what do you think the answer is?
[00:24:51] Jolene: so. I think our biggest issue right now is prosecuting and utilizing the crime, the, the laws that are already in our [00:25:00] books to prosecute the criminals who are committing crimes with guns. that right there, if we were just to concentrate on that, which is really the reason that Trump went into Washington DC with the National Guard. we're letting these criminals off who are felons, who own guns, and we're letting them off and we're not prosecuting them.
[00:25:21] Jolene: There is a disconnect between the law and the prosecutors, the, the, the police and the prosecutors of convicting. Anybody who, is convicted of a crime with a gun and they're letting him off the hook and they're putting him back on the streets,
[00:25:38] Nicole: But I, I, hmm. I think I have to push, I mean, I hear what you're saying 'cause I know that that is, that is a big thing on, on the right is like, it's not the guns, it's the person. But I personally, Jolene, I think it's both. And having done this research about these, whether it's [00:26:00] trafficking or have these laws now, so that this Thart law in 2003 where the A TF, they will, even if they do a background check that goes through.
[00:26:15] Nicole: 24 hours, they get to black it out or destroy it so that the a TF has a really hard time tracing crime guns or regular guns. Like even knowing if they're gonna go into set apartment, if they had the, had the records, oh, these people have guns that might have them approach that building differently. the laws that are now in place make it really, really difficult for the A TF and for law enforcement to, to find the crime guns where they came from.
[00:26:53] Nicole: I mean, I kept reading over and over again that we always highlight the shooter and not where the source of the gun came from. [00:27:00] because usually the 90% of those guns are illegal. How do we find them? Not, I'm not demonizing a gun dealer. I'm talking about how do we deal with the gun violence so that then I'm, I'm, I think I'm trying to work with you to not dismiss what you're saying, but how do we make sure that those guns don't get in the hands of criminals,
[00:27:29] Jolene: Stop letting him off the hook, right? I mean, if they're convicted of a crime using a gun, you take the gun away and you put the person in jail.
[00:27:39] Nicole: but where are you hearing this? Like, who's, who's getting out of jail?
[00:27:44] Jolene: I mean, it's, it's all over the news. It's the whole reason that Washington DC has been taken over. That was, it was the whole reason that Trump sent the troops in Troops
[00:27:53] Nicole: Do you do, do you, but how do you feel about them going in, like military going, [00:28:00] you're for it.
[00:28:00] Jolene: I am all for it. Absolutely. then it could, but then the military can go anywhere.
[00:28:05] Jolene: I don't care. It's, it's, it's absolutely preventing what happened during 2020 when Minneapolis was burning, uh, burning down and LA and, and, and everybody had to stand back and let it happen because they, the police were completely feckless and couldn't do anything, didn't have the manpower to stop it.
[00:28:28] Jolene: And so what Trump was doing when he sent the, when he sent in the, um, national Guard into LA a couple weeks ago for the, or month ago, whatever it was you know, to prevent the violence with the ice detainees and all that. He, he didn't let it get to the point that Minneapolis did and LA did it back in 2020.
[00:28:49] Jolene: He went in, he shut it down and it shut down.
[00:28:52] Nicole: I mean, why didn't he do that in 2020, at January 6th? They were waiting for him. I mean, right. I,
[00:28:59] Jolene: I [00:29:00] know, uh, and that's another issue, but
[00:29:02] Nicole: They, they didn't do that. And those,
[00:29:04] Jolene: I'm saying he's taking control of Washington DC because what an embarrassment Washington DC is right now with the crime the way that it is. And, and we all know the statistics and the police chief has said, no, it's getting better. And, but now they're looking at the statistics and going, well, they were asked to make some adjustment to the statistics.
[00:29:24] Jolene: So, I mean, we all know that statistics can be, can be manipulated to say whatever you want to say. However, the fact that he's going in and, going after the criminals, there's the arrests that they've made in the last week of people that have been off that were committing crimes and being let off within days. put back on the streets and not pro prosecuted
[00:29:47] Nicole: that's happening.
[00:29:49] Jolene: It is absolutely happening,
[00:29:51] Nicole: this is fascinating because you know how much I'm reading these days and I don't hear any of this. I'm assuming you're hearing this on [00:30:00] Fox News.
[00:30:01] Jolene: I don't know where I found where I saw the story I, I just think it's a very common thing right now, that we are not keeping criminals. Um, we're not prosecuting criminals We're being too lenient on these, on these criminals and not convicting them of the crimes that they're being held for.
[00:30:20] Jolene: Let's start enforcing the laws that are already on the books. Let's, let's prosecute these criminals who are, who are being arrested and, and
[00:30:30] Jolene: have
[00:30:30] Nicole: why, but why are you seeing that they're being, I mean, we have a republican. President. We have a majority Republican country right now,
[00:30:41] Jolene: But these are cities. I mean, these are cities where this is happening.
[00:30:44] Nicole: they're blue cities is what you're saying that the or, or is, I mean, is that how it's being reported? I'm
[00:30:50] Jolene: I don't, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't think it's a, I don't. I don't think it's meant to be a political issue. I think it's a fact
[00:30:56] Nicole: why do you think they're getting let off? Because usually it's, they don't have [00:31:00] enough evidence to hold them. I, so I'm, I'm unclear. I'm unclear.
[00:31:05] Jolene: I think that we are advocating too much for people who, um, maybe have other circumstances. Maybe they, they're being lenient because they grew up in the wrong area of town and or they didn't know any better or this is the environment that they grew up in. And I, I just think we're being too lenient on criminals in general and, and, um, I
[00:31:32] Nicole: I mean that, that's
[00:31:33] Jolene: put the hammer down.
[00:31:34] Nicole: I think that's fascinating, Jolene. 'cause that has not been my experience, whether it's working with the kids in jail, uh, the crimes, some of them are such petty crimes and they're in there for years. Josh has also worked on a couple cases on clemency cases where he represented gang members who, did commit murder.
[00:31:56] Nicole: Uh, they were 14 and [00:32:00] they're in their fifties and they're still in jail. I've had an opposite experience, um, just personally, uh, where I'm like, um.
[00:32:10] Nicole: there's gotta be some, some, some way to create rehabilitation. But I hear what you're saying. I'm just not understanding,
[00:32:19] Jolene: I'm not saying that you are not right either. I'm not
[00:32:23] Nicole: No, I know.
[00:32:23] Nicole: I know are
[00:32:24] Jolene: Yeah. Situations that, um, that need to, to individual situations that you are aware of. I'm saying in general right now well, here, here, this was from uh, USA fax, uh, the website SA fax, or us, I'm sorry, US fax.
[00:32:41] Jolene: Is it US facts? US facts, yeah. homicides are up 30% from 2020. But there are violent crime hotspots that 5% of the criminals are responsible for 50% of the crimes in major urban areas, and it's usually drug dealers and felons with guns. [00:33:00] And it's that cops and prosecutors have got to be on the same page to be able to fix this problem.
[00:33:06] Nicole: It is, it's usa fax.org. Just so
[00:33:10] Nicole: our, our, our viewer knows. I'm hearing you. I really am. I, I know I'm throwing some facts at you, This was from several sources, uh, Brady United. Every town Anne Gifford's, 125 Americans die by guns per day. 56% are by suicides, 40% are by homicides. 1.3% are police shootings and 1.1 are unintentional, I kind of think the way the media portrays it is that it would be 99% homicides. So that was sort of shocking to me. And another reason, like they said that the number one cause of, death in children is guns, is gun violence. [00:34:00] that 40,000 lives each year. Are lost by guns and that it's been declared a public health emergency. and that we have more gun dealers in America, the McDonald's and Starbucks combined, which I was it just mind blowing. And this is the other thing that I thought was interesting, that in 2023, like gun gun homicide jumped in 2020, which makes a whole lot of
[00:34:25] Jolene: Right.
[00:34:26] Nicole: In, jumped in 2020 and 2021 and it was the highest gun deaths on record those years.
[00:34:32] Nicole: It's now gone down a little bit, but in 2023, suicides by gun reached a 40 year high. The highest rates were men, white men, and American Indian and Alaskan native men.
[00:34:51] Jolene: Wow.
[00:34:51] Nicole: I mean, it just is heartbreaking 30% of the people who failed the background checks are rearrested within five years.
[00:34:59] Jolene: because [00:35:00] they found a gun another way. Yeah. Well, okay, so we agree that, you don't want to, you don't wanna eliminate guns
[00:35:08] Nicole: I want background checks and I want licenses, if that's what you would call it, like a driver's license. Safety courses.
[00:35:17] Jolene: Great. All
[00:35:18] Nicole: If, if I'm gonna be like wishlist for my liberal brain, that's what I want.
[00:35:23] Jolene: Okay. I would agree with you on both of those things.
[00:35:26] Nicole: Or all
[00:35:26] Jolene: That was easy.
[00:35:28] Nicole: A license, gun safety courses and background checks,
[00:35:33] Jolene: Oh, okay. Okay. So then we agree then that most, uh, and I would agree with you on all three of those things.
[00:35:39] Nicole: So where's the pushback do you think?
[00:35:41] Jolene: I think that number one, I don't think all liberals would agree with you. I mean,
[00:35:45] Nicole: Probably not. I think, I think some of them don't want any guns you have said from the very beginning, maybe from episode one that liberals are sort of idealistic and not realistic. And I agree that that is not realistic and not ideal. I mean, come [00:36:00] on, liberals. We have to work together.
[00:36:03] Nicole: Do I want a gun? No. Do I want my friend to have a gun? No. Do I want my friend to be safe? Yes. Do I wanna be safe? Yes.
[00:36:13] Jolene: if you were to criminalize guns, only criminals would have guns. Right? I mean, criminals are not gonna go, oh God, we can't have guns anymore. Okay.
[00:36:21] Nicole: they're gonna, they're gonna figure out a workaround, Right. Which is what people
[00:36:25] Jolene: So that's why it's important to, that we we're able to keep guns. So let's, let's talk about mental health.
[00:36:32] Jolene: I mean, because anybody who's doing any of these mass shootings, they're mentally ill. I mean, they're the, the guy who went into the, the building in New York
[00:36:41] Nicole: Of course, but I thought what was interesting is that we don't talk about where did he get that gun?
[00:36:47] Jolene: Which I think he, he got it legally, like there was nothing in his background. I, I think, and I don't know, because I think all of these get mushed together for me, but I think he was able to obtain it legally,
[00:36:58] Nicole: maybe as my, if I'm gonna [00:37:00] just like be the law for a second, like, I would like the background checks to have a psychiatric test.
[00:37:06] Jolene: which I think there is, I mean, have you ever been, you have, have you ever been diagnosed with, I think that's part of, of some Yeah. I mean, obviously they ev people can lie. Right.
[00:37:16] Jolene: I mean, like Hunter Biden.
[00:37:18] Nicole: Oh my God. Your obsession with Hunter Biden. I like, it's true. Like I know, and I know Fox and all the things, but man, I mean, listen, I knew nothing about Hunter Biden honestly, until we started this podcast, like literally nothing. And now you bring him up. I don't know, every fourth episode. And I did watch that banana crazy, crazy interview.
[00:37:45] Nicole: I di I mean, I didn't watch all three and a half hours. I watched like 20 minutes and I was like,
[00:37:49] Jolene: And it was enough for you, wasn't it?
[00:37:51] Nicole: oh. I mean, it's sad. It's sad, it's sad. He's not, he's not okay.
[00:37:56] Jolene: But again, like that's an, that's an example. He passed a [00:38:00] background check and, and he lied on it. Yeah. Oh yeah. He, that's why he, that was the whole reason he got arrested was that he,
[00:38:07] Nicole: sorry, liberals, I'm letting you all down right now.
[00:38:10] Jolene: so then we have to deal with the mental health part of this, and stop saying it's these guns that are killing people because it's not wackadoodle people who are, I mean, it's the wackadoodle people that are killing people with guns.
[00:38:22] Jolene: It's not me and my hairdresser.
[00:38:25] Nicole: but how do we do that? Jolene, I don't think like liberals have to get on board with mental health. We all have to get on board with mental, there's clearly, we've all, we all talk about it, that there's a mental health crisis. Like fricking RFK dude. Do some, like talk about a mental health, like a, a health crisis.
[00:38:45] Nicole: Start there. But I do feel like what happens is that when, when conservatives say it's not about the gun, it's about the person, it. what I'm trying to say is that we all, we both do things [00:39:00] that sort of end the discussion.
[00:39:01] Nicole: 'cause when you say that, then we just go,
[00:39:06] Jolene: Well, okay, and then nothing happens. So you and me, if we were running the government, if we were like co-presidents,
[00:39:15] Nicole: how do we tackle this? Because what I think when it comes to guns, it goes back to the Americans like, don't tell me what to do. This is my right.
[00:39:30] Nicole: I'm not taking a big old test. I want my gun.
[00:39:34] Jolene: I, I mean, I don't, I don't think it's that. I, I don't, I mean, I think, no, I don't, I I think that anybody who has a gun and respects a gun will do what it takes to get a gun, and they're like, no, I deserve to have a gun because I can pass this background check. I, I know take the gun safety course. I mean, I don't think it's that, I don't think that you're gonna get pushback.
[00:39:56] Jolene: I mean, if it's a reasonable, if there are reasonable [00:40:00] requests, you're not gonna get pushback from people. I, I mean it, like you said, it's like getting a car driver's license for your
[00:40:05] Jolene: car.
[00:40:07] Nicole: Right. And I do think that maybe I'm not encouraging liberals to get a gun, but I'm, it is really powerful to educate yourself. it's really important to sort of meet people where they are and understand. Why they feel the way they do. This was exactly what we've got to talk is about.
[00:40:31] Nicole: And I think about in doing the research for this, I'm like, maybe I will go to a shooting range. Maybe I will learn what this thing is. So I'm not so scared.
[00:40:41] Nicole: your facing, your fear. And it makes truly kind of no sense why I would know about guns if my family didn't have guns. I grew up in sit in the city. I didn't and, Facing your fear and being responsible can help you then make the [00:41:00] decision even more.
[00:41:01] Nicole: I really am not comfortable with gums, but if just please be safe, it might sound Polly, but I really think if we had a federal law, like I hate saying that 'cause I think conservatives freak out when it's like, don't give me a federal law. But how do we get safer? How do we stop?
[00:41:25] Jolene: I think you, you make it so it's not so scary. So you're right. I, I think we talk about guns in a way that is, um, that is real. Um, I think Susie brought up a really good point, um, and that I think that, that Bren probably talked about this. and then I've heard, um, Katie Pavlich is, is, um, a, a reporter is a, um, commentator and she says, oh no, you know who it was?
[00:41:51] Jolene: Wait, I wrote this down. It was,
[00:41:53] Jolene: Lieutenant Governor of Virginia, and her name is Winsome Sears, and she went on with Bill Maher and she talked about, [00:42:00] um, the fastest growing segment of gun owners are black women and, and she's a black woman.
[00:42:06] Nicole: Okay.
[00:42:06] Jolene: And, um, that guns, this is what she said. And this is then what Bill Maher then, um, reiterated that guns are a leveler, that men are physically stronger than women. And if for the women liberals who want equality for women, they should be for women having gun ownership because it is the equalizer. If you know how to use it.
[00:42:30] Jolene: And that was the, that was the big point was, if you don't want to be a victim, learn to carry a gun and know how to use it. I mean, that right there should be a great lesson for women. What do you think of that?
[00:42:44] Nicole: I understand the point. I think that also women should, can have the right to not carry it. 'cause they don't want to. Like if it doesn't make you
[00:42:54] Jolene: Oh, a hundred percent.
[00:42:56] Nicole: Like I think when I said that I would face my fears and [00:43:00] maybe. Educate myself in that way. It's more to, it's more to respect it even more, to understand it even more.
[00:43:09] Nicole: Um, I totally understand what Bren or Susie, I'm not sure who, I guess it was Bren had said about like leveling the playing field. you know, it's interesting because Susie had said she can't imagine life without one and I can't imagine life with one.
[00:43:27] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:43:27] Nicole: but I respect that for her and I think she respects that for me.
[00:43:34] Nicole: And I just think that that's part of the issue in our country when we are this huge nation with different beliefs and, and different backgrounds and
[00:43:46] Nicole: different histories and different cultures and all the things. And when you hear things like. We should arm our teachers. That scares the shit out of liberals.
[00:43:56] Nicole: 'cause a los liberals have never touched a gun, so they think, are [00:44:00] you kidding me? So it's, it's this sort of idea that I feel like we can't even really talk about guns or gun control in this country until we actually meet each other where we are. And, uh, like with compassion, and I know that sounds Pollyanna, but seriously, so that liberals, you know, understand, hey, this is a way of life for half of the country.
[00:44:24] Nicole: And hey, conservatives, please understand why this might scare your fellow neighbor. And like, stop. Like, how do we come together and respect the difference? But also like, I don't, I I'm going to believe you and say we don't want to kill each other.
[00:44:43] Jolene: Right, and, and so I think conservatives then that's why we push back on when, when the conversation turns to gun control, that we push back and say, it's not about gun control. It's not about taking away the guns. It's about. [00:45:00]
[00:45:00] Nicole: Jolene, is that what it is then?
[00:45:01] Jolene: I think it is the thought that two people like you and I are not having this conversation, having these conversations where we can say, well, what are the things that we do agree on?
[00:45:12] Jolene: And then secondly, being able to say, okay, I'm scared. You know, why I don't like guns. 'cause I'm scared of 'em. That that's a, that is so honest and so, um, such, so telling about this whole conversation. So it's not that you don't want me to have a gun because that's what, that's what republicans think.
[00:45:33] Jolene: Democrats want to take our guns away.
[00:45:35] Jolene: Like that's
[00:45:36] Nicole: that's one thing that, that Susie said in her, her Marco Polo to me, to me, and I was like, I never said anything about taking your guns away. Like she just went off. And I'm like, why is she talking about that? in Republican world and conservative world gun control equals take my gun away.
[00:45:53] Jolene: Yeah. Yep. That you don't want us to have guns.
[00:45:57] Nicole: I think in liberal world, [00:46:00] gun control equals make guns safe and put strong background checks.
[00:46:06] Jolene: Wow.
[00:46:07] Jolene: We just broke. We just broke through.
[00:46:11] Nicole: I mean, I, I can't tell if you're joking with me, but
[00:46:13] Jolene: No, I'm not joking because I, think that's exactly what, what, where the divide is. because I think there are people who are, who truly believe there should not be any guns, and that's just not realistic.
[00:46:26] Nicole: yeah, it's not gonna happen. There are guns,
[00:46:29] Jolene: Can I talk about my gun?
[00:46:30] Nicole: So explain what it is, please.
[00:46:32] Jolene: So it is a gun that shoots, um, pepper spray pellets. So when we first started TA talking about guns, and I'm not comfortable with a gun, I said, I don't know that I would be comfortable having a gun in the house. I'm not familiar with it as you are. and so, um, Bryn who owned, um, a gun tree club.
[00:46:55] Jolene: it is a facility that is cute as a [00:47:00] button. They've, they've sold them now, they had a couple locations, but they had a, a gun range, a shooting range, um, on part of it that her husband, I mean, that was kind of her husband's thing. And on the other half of the building then was, she, it was an upscale boutique, so it had everything from cute clothes and jewelry and shoes to, like a, a gun bra.
[00:47:23] Jolene: I mean a, a bra that had a holster in it
[00:47:25] Jolene: that you could keep a gun in. I mean, yeah, I
[00:47:27] Jolene: mean, it was all kind of gun related
[00:47:30] Nicole: Okay.
[00:47:30] Nicole: Okay.
[00:47:31] Jolene: Jeff approached Bryn and said, okay, Joe wants to have a gun. What would be the best way to start her on a gun? And Bryn said, honestly, I think if you went with a pellet gun, because it's gonna give her that protection, that, um, feeling of protection.
[00:47:51] Jolene: 'cause it will protect you. Um, but it doesn't require the expertise that it takes to have a, a gun and to know how to shoot a [00:48:00] gun and all that.
[00:48:01] Nicole: Did you do training for Mm-hmm. So I, yes,
[00:48:05] Nicole: treated it like a regular gun.
[00:48:07] Jolene: Yeah. Yes. So watched videos and then did some practice shooting on it and, and, um, now I probably needed it 'cause I haven't done it for a while.
[00:48:15] Jolene: And so I probably, it, it's probably one of those things you should probably do every six months just
[00:48:19] Jolene: to make it feel comfortable and
[00:48:21] Nicole: kill someone with it.
[00:48:22] Jolene: You can't, I don't think you can kill somebody. I mean, I,
[00:48:25] Jolene: I mean,
[00:48:26] Jolene: maybe there's a scenario. Yeah, maybe there's a scenario if you got 'em right in the eye. I mean, I don't, I mean, I don't know. it's intended to shoot, um, that you can shoot a large target, which is also something for a beginner, um, having a, a gun or having, um, a, a device, a firearm that, um, that has a big target so that you have room for error. Because the worst thing to do is if somebody's coming at you and you miss Yeah, you pissed 'em off.
[00:48:56] Jolene: Right? So, it provides you, um, [00:49:00] with uh, some room for error, but upon impact. It then releases a pepper spray. so then they can't see. And so the, so it's basically a mechanism to buy you time. And so whether that means time to, for the law enforcement to get to your house, or time for you to run away, or time for you to get a real gun, or, you know, whatever it is, a mechanism to allow you to, um, to defend yourself that you are not completely defenseless,
[00:49:30] Nicole: Have you actually used it?
[00:49:32] Jolene: not to protect myself.
[00:49:35] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:49:36] Nicole: but I don't want a gun.
[00:49:37] Jolene: And that's okay.
[00:49:40] Nicole: I, right. I don't, I just, yeah, I'm not comfortable. I'm not comfortable. I don't want it in the house. I don't,
[00:49:49] Jolene: Okay.
[00:49:50] Nicole: and, and hopefully I, I, I'm gonna be okay for my life and my people are okay. And maybe it's naive, [00:50:00] maybe it's not, and honestly, Jolene, when I heard that you had that, I was relieved.
[00:50:06] Jolene: That I didn't have a real gun.
[00:50:07] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:50:08] Jolene: did you know, or did you find in your research that there are more deaths per year via knife, via stabbings, stabbings than there are from guns
[00:50:20] Nicole: no.
[00:50:21] Jolene: four times as much.
[00:50:25] Nicole: Yuck.
[00:50:26] Jolene: Right. So, I mean, and we're not, we're not talking about knife control. Did you also see that the, the guy I, this was, um,
[00:50:38] Nicole: Where, where did you get that research? That It's four
[00:50:41] Jolene: USA facts,
[00:50:42] Nicole: Okay.
[00:50:43] Jolene: USA
[00:50:43] Jolene: facts. okay, wait. There was also, um, the, the Walmart incident, um, in Michigan maybe
[00:50:51] Jolene: last week,
[00:50:53] Nicole: No, no. It was a while ago. I.
[00:50:55] Jolene: um, where the guy was stabbing people in the Walmart. when he got out to the [00:51:00] parking lot, there was a good guy with a gun who held him until the police could get there. there is a reason then that, um, the good guy with a gun saved the day.
[00:51:12] Nicole: But also that good guy with a gun in the No Kings March in Salt Lake City killed that innocent person.
[00:51:20] Jolene: Yeah. But I wouldn't call him a good guy if he killed somebody that's not a good guy with a gun.
[00:51:25] Nicole: He was, he was on the safety patrol and he thought that someone else was going to shoot. And so he shot and he killed an innocent person.
[00:51:34] Jolene: Oh, Gaw.
[00:51:35] Nicole: Yeah. It was bad. It was bad. It was bad. It's horrible. It's horrible all around because I'm sure he, we thought he was trying to defend everyone and he ended up killing an innocent bystander.
[00:51:52] Nicole: He
[00:51:53] Jolene: wow.
[00:51:55] Nicole: So, I don't even know, like, [00:52:00] uh, how we end this conversation and let's just say that this is probably an ongoing conversation, you and I, um.
[00:52:08] Jolene: what I loved about this conversation though. I loved that we started at a point where. Where do you agree? Like where do you fall on this and what are the, what are the points that we agree with, with each other on? And I, and I think if we had more conversations that started with what we agree on, and then let's work out all the details, that is such a more productive conversation because it's, you're not, you're not putting your, your defenses up from the very beginning and trying to defend your, your, your stance.
[00:52:44] Jolene: And man, that's a, that's a really, um, God, that's a really productive way to have a conversation with somebody from the other side.
[00:52:51] Nicole: yes, and I think that's how it used to be in the, in the olden times that, that Republicans and Democrats would get together [00:53:00] and, okay, where can we come together and, and work from there? 'cause otherwise, we're never going to come together.
[00:53:08] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:53:08] Nicole: About anything. Right. I have two. Good, good for the souls. one is serious and one is funny. and it's uh, episode of the Daily it is titled, and I will put it in the show notes. Republican Town Halls turned ugly. One Congressman kept doing them anyway, and he is a congress person from Nebraska named Mike Flood.
[00:53:39] Nicole: And I really enjoyed the interview and his approach to governing He would admit when he did something wrong he understood his job and he understood that it was important for his constituents to also express themselves. And I think, I think everyone, whether you're on the right or [00:54:00] the left, would appreciate this particular episode.
[00:54:02] Nicole: I think it's really enlightening and I think I wanna highlight this Republican Congress person like he is a model to me of what a good Congress person is about.
[00:54:14] Jolene: I have not gotten a chance to watch it yet, and, and now I'm even more intrigued.
[00:54:19] Nicole: Yes. And then my other one is super silly that I've sent you a billion
[00:54:25] Jolene: Oh,
[00:54:26] Nicole: Instagrams of like a billion because I am totally in love with this account and it is called diaper diplomacy. Politicians in diapers. Real quotes, no, adults think this is wild. The merch is unhinged diaper diplomacy is the handle on Instagram. You guys,
[00:54:55] Jolene: It is so
[00:54:56] Nicole: it's so funny. And, and, and our [00:55:00] incredible creative on, we've got to talk, Alex, who makes our beautiful cover our website, our, he's, he's so brilliant. He, he wrote me and he was like, oh my gosh, this is what AI should be used for
[00:55:15] Nicole: 'cause Right, right. He's like, if this is what AI is for, 'cause it makes these babies just go have a look. I don't wanna tell you too much. It's, but it's, it's real audio coming outta the mouth of babies.
[00:55:29] Jolene: The only good, uh, okay, so I have a Bad For the Soul.
[00:55:33] Nicole: Oh, geez.
[00:55:34] Jolene: it's an Instagram that I originally, and I think both you and I kind of agreed that I thought it was really good called We the People and now it's gotten political.
[00:55:45] Nicole: Oh, do you mean what you mean the, the possible that one
[00:55:49] Jolene: Oh, we, the.
[00:55:52] Nicole: America,
[00:55:52] Jolene: the poss America, the Possible, sorry, sorry, sorry. America. The Possible. And now he's become political and I've stopped following him [00:56:00] now,
[00:56:00] Nicole: I, Jolene and I have noticed that.
[00:56:02] Jolene: and it just, it makes me so sad because I thought when he first started, they were doing, and I think it's, I, I mean, they have one guy who does all the speaking, but I think originally when they first started, he said it was a group of them who, you know, started this, this, site. and I thought what they were doing was so valuable and now it's switched and you're, you're losing your audience.
[00:56:25] Jolene: Like why
[00:56:26] Nicole: certainly, you're lo you're losing the conservative audience, that's for sure. Because I, I agreed with you that I was so excited about this guy. 'cause it was just like teaching us history. Like this is what's going on, this is what it means. No, no bias, no nothing. And that, and the last, I don't know, couple weeks, certainly I've really noticed it.
[00:56:47] Nicole: I was like. Oh,
[00:56:50] Nicole: dude,
[00:56:51] Jolene: me sad,
[00:56:51] Nicole: you're obviously liberal and you're getting shammy and
[00:56:57] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:56:58] Nicole: I'm sorry, [00:57:00] Jolene.
[00:57:00] Nicole: Well, listen, America, the, the America, the Possible, if you listen to us on YouTube or Spotify or, um, apple, listen, uh, maybe try being more neutral because maybe you'll get your conservative audience back. I think it's really important to teach us all how to think about history.
[00:57:24] Jolene: I agree. And, and I was not following, um, I mean, I, I don't only just follow conservative. People either. I mean, 'cause I, I, and so it's not that, um, it, it's not that I object to following somebody who's not conservative, but don't try to hoodwink me into, you know, following you because you are, um, really just talking about history and then you start putting in your political bias because that's not valuable to me anymore.
[00:57:54] Nicole: if I can speak for you or for anyone, when that starts to happen, you, you [00:58:00] lose trust. 'cause you, you, right, you, you were set up in this situation, oh, I have, okay, I feel safe in this space. And now you're like, oh, now you're making me feel bad, that I believe a certain way or whatever.
[00:58:14] Nicole: And that's, that's on both sides, that it's really important
[00:58:18] Nicole: to, honor people, honor where they are,
[00:58:21] Jolene: yeah. I agree.
[00:58:23] Nicole: honor where they are.
[00:58:29] Nicole: you have a, would
[00:58:30] Jolene: your yes. Give me yours first
[00:58:34] Nicole: I picked one that was as un gunn as possible. 'cause I thought this is gonna be such a heavy topic that I gotta lighten this shit up. So, are you ready?
[00:58:47] Jolene: Yes.
[00:58:49] Nicole: Would you rather walk in on your parents or have them walk in on you?
[00:58:58] Jolene: Oh [00:59:00] gosh.
[00:59:04] Nicole: Oh, I love it. Did I
[00:59:08] Nicole: think it that's it,
[00:59:09] Jolene: horrible.
[00:59:10] Nicole: I mean, it, it is funny or is it just me? It's so funny. No, it is funny. Um, Ew. But my parents, no, I, I, I don't wanna get that image out of my head, so I think I'd rather have them walk in on me. Oh
[00:59:28] Nicole: it didn't happen. It didn't happen.
[00:59:32] Nicole: You didn't walk in on them as a kid,
[00:59:36] Jolene: um, I kind of think I did and didn't know
[00:59:40] Jolene: it, did you?
[00:59:43] Nicole: Uh, well, sorry, dad. Uh, when, when dad remarried Jackie, and they, they met when, I think I was 14 or something. They got married when I was 15. We'd hear [01:00:00] them a lot,
[01:00:00] Jolene: No. my brother and I would be like, oh no. But they were like, you know, newlyweds, not my, so it was just like, Oh God. oh that's horrible.
[01:00:15] Nicole: Honestly, it was funny. It was funny and horrible.
[01:00:18] Nicole: I, I didn't, I didn't see it. I thankfully didn't see anything, but it was just like, But Here go. sure that's a sound. Do you ever get outta your head? Uh,
[01:00:28] Nicole: Anyway.
[01:00:32] Jolene: unlike you, um, I decided to go with a gun one,
[01:00:36] Nicole: Oh, Jesus.
[01:00:37] Jolene: and so, uh, mine is, would you rather be in a classroom
[01:00:44] Nicole: Oh, come on.
[01:00:45] Jolene: when there's an active shooter with a teacher who is, who's got a gun in her desk, or one who does not?
[01:00:52] Nicole: Oh, come on.
[01:00:53] Jolene: I know.
[01:00:56] Nicole: Ah, [01:01:00] is she trained?
[01:01:05] Jolene: Yes,
[01:01:07] Nicole: I don't know.
[01:01:09] Jolene: because she had to be trained in order for the school to allow her to have a gun.
[01:01:16] Nicole: I have no idea how to answer this 'cause it just makes me sick. It makes me sick.
[01:01:21] Jolene: but it's also true, right?
[01:01:25] Nicole: Ugh. I feel, and honestly, you've set me up because I can't answer this right.
[01:01:33] Nicole: I'm gonna piss off, or, um, my liberals, I'm gonna piss off my conservatives. I'm gonna piss everybody off. And I really am just sort of paralyzed because the actor in me has put myself in that fucking classroom and I'm terrified right now.
[01:01:50] Nicole: Um, I don't want her to have a gun. I just, I feel like more guns is [01:02:00] not a good idea. But I'm not taking your guns away all, I just want everyone safe. I don't want
[01:02:08] Nicole: any more school shootings. I don't want any more school shootings. Isn't it horrifying, Jolene?
[01:02:14] Jolene: it's, uh, there's not, it's not even, do you remember?
[01:02:18] Nicole: that it even exists?
[01:02:19] Jolene: No. Do you know what occurred to me the other day? Do you remember when we were young? Like we were, I, I, I, I need to look it up 'cause I don't remember. Remember when the Tylenol scare happened? Do you remember that? When someone tainted, um, Tylenol. And do you remember that at all?
[01:02:37] Jolene: God, I remember it. Um, because it was the first, um, kids didn't die. I, well, I don't think I, I, I wanna, I need to look it up now, but it was, it was the first time and I was, I mean, maybe I was in third or fourth grade maybe. it was the first time that I ever [01:03:00] remembered having a memory of that someone would do something so evil for no reason like that.
[01:03:06] Jolene: Was that like, like I remember going. Now, why would somebody poison Tylenol? Something that we all take like that, uh, you couldn't even fathom like you, that that was such a huge, um, concept to even try to wrap your brain around. And I think about that compared to the things that we're, and, and that our kids are dealing with now.
[01:03:30] Jolene: The reality of the world that we're in now and you think, holy cow, what a thing to have to grasp.
[01:03:38] Nicole: I mean, the fact that like we had earthquake drills, not shooting drills.
[01:03:43] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[01:03:43] Nicole: It's just, I mean, I do remember, and I was thinking when we were doing the research for this, that there, I had to look it up. There was a Time Magazine article, and I don't know if you remember this, but Time did a. Uh, it was called Death by Gun, and it was [01:04:00] July 17th, 1989.
[01:04:02] Nicole: And they had a photograph of a woman, a young woman on the cover, and they did a, um, a 28 page portfolio. And it was 464 people had died that week, and they showed all their faces and their little bios. And I was 19 years old. I remember sitting in my room back from college and just, I, I crying and like feeling this, feeling that I needed to see everyone.
[01:04:30] Nicole: It, and it was just like this feeling of like, this happens. How does this happen? And school shootings hadn't even been
[01:04:39] Jolene: a thing. Yeah.
[01:04:40] Nicole: And the fact that these little kids,
[01:04:45] Jolene: Yeah, yeah. It's, I,
[01:04:47] Nicole: I just, I, I want us to come together, Jolene, that's what I want. That's what I want.
[01:04:52] Jolene: We all do. I agree. Okay. Okay. On that note, thank you [01:05:00] for, um, having this really challenging and honest conversation. Well, thank you for coming at it with, um, with an open heart and an open mind, because I think that's where we all have to start. And I, and I think, um, and I think we did it I, I think we did too. I think we did too. And thank you, uh, for watching on YouTube and listening on Spotify and Apple and, if you're digging this conversation and think it would be helpful for to send it to friends, please share. Uh, we are growing this community every day, people have been sharing their comments on YouTube and writing us on our website and Instagram, and we will write you back and we will come at it with openness and kindness.
[01:05:50] Nicole: And we just wanna create a safe space where we can talk about all of these hard things. And sometimes we'll have fun episodes too. Um, [01:06:00] but, uh, I think it's really important to, for us to, to start figuring out how to come together with each other.
[01:06:07] Jolene: Amen, sister.
[01:06:08] Nicole: Amen. Girl,
