Tribalism Is Destroying American Politics - Lura Forcum
There seems to be a common excuse amongst Americans who don’t vote. It’s not that they wouldn’t vote; they just don’t like any of the candidates. They don’t see the point in voting for someone they didn’t want in the first place.
Politics feels like a mess; everyone seems bought, everyone sounds scripted, and the instinct is to step back and say, “Call me when someone decent shows up.”
But Lura Forcum made a point that I can’t shake. Waiting is not neutral. Waiting is a choice. And when you sit out because you’re disappointed, the elections don’t stop. They just belong to the people who love the chaos, love the tribalism, and think this is what leadership is supposed to look like.
Lura is a consumer and social psychologist, and she studies the human stuff underneath politics. Identity. Belonging. Group dynamics. The part of us that wants to be accepted, wants to be safe, and will sometimes trade independent thinking for membership in the club. She didn’t start in politics, either. She started in think tank land, trying to translate research into something the public could actually use. She thought the missing piece was persuasion, so she went and got a PhD, taught marketing, and learned the hard truth. You can’t just “persuade people” with better facts. People don’t work like that.
What we’re dealing with is tribalism.
Competitive politics used to be about winning the middle. Politicians had to compete for swing voters, which meant they had to listen, adjust, and at least pretend they cared what regular people needed. Tribal politics is different. Tribal politics says, “Our group must win and hold power,” and it turns everything into loyalty tests. It rewards warriors, not statesmen. It makes governing feel like a constant fight for status and resources, even though that’s not how a representative democracy is supposed to work.
Once you’re in that mindset, policy becomes secondary. The other side becomes an existential threat. And when that happens, you’re not debating anymore. You’re in a survival story. Lura used the image of pulling the car over when your kids are out of control, because you can’t keep driving until everyone calms down. That’s what tribalism does. It hijacks the whole vehicle.
Then she said something that I found shocking, but unfortunately not surprising. When she asks policy people, “Have you talked to the actual voters affected by this?” The answer is usually no. No. They haven’t talked to them. Which explains a lot. It explains why we get policies that sound great in a meeting and land like a brick in real life. It explains why people feel ignored. It explains why trust is in the gutter.
So what do you do if you’re sitting there thinking, “I don’t trust any of this, I don’t want to vote, they’re all rich, they don’t care about me”?
Lura’s answer was simple. Vote anyway.
Vote as an independent thinker. Split your ticket if you want. Use a voting guide. Go to a candidate event. Make a short list of what you actually care about and vote on that. She talked about choosing based on decency and public service. You don’t have to agree with someone on every policy position to decide they’re a decent person who will do the job with some integrity.
If we want better candidates, it might take a few elections where we’re not thrilled with the outcome. That’s the path. You don’t get the candidate you’re excited about by refusing to participate altogether until they magically appear. You get them by showing there’s a market for something better.
She also reminded us where the real leverage is. Primaries. The people who show up to primaries tend to be the most vocal and extreme, and in many districts the primary winner is basically the general election winner. If you want less extreme candidates, you don’t get them by complaining in November. You get them by showing up earlier, when it’s inconvenient and boring and nobody’s posting about it.
I loved that she didn’t pretend the fix is glamorous. It’s not. It’s voting when you’re not excited. It’s paying attention to primaries. It’s contacting your representatives without screaming at them. It’s rebuilding trust by doing things together, face-to-face, in the real world.
That’s how you stop waiting for the perfect candidate.
You vote anyway.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Where to Find Lura:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/luraforcum/
https://www.facebook.com/lura.forcum
https://substack.com/@luraforcum
https://www.instagram.com/luraforcum/
https://www.youtube.com/@LuraForcum_HowtoHuman
Lura’s Podcast:
https://wemadethispolitical.substack.com/
https://www.youtube.com/@WeMadeThisPolitical
LINKS:
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/wevegottotalk/
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/weve-got-to-talk/id1797423701
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0qJVgTvjciUffRmoUienx2
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[00:00:00] nicole: She's conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money, and we say that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head but are too scared to say out loud. Welcome to We've Got to Talk. Welcome, Laura Forkham
[00:00:23] Jolene: Laura Forcum is a consumer and social psychologist studying the human dynamics underneath politics. She's a researcher, writer, and advisor whose work explores how identity and belonging shape our political lives. She also serves on the board of advisors for the ProHuman Foundation, and she's the co-host of the We Made This Political podcast. Welcome, Laura. Thank you for being here.
[00:00:48] Lura Forcum: Thank you both for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you
[00:00:51] nicole: Yeah, we're really excited to have you. what is your background? Where did you come from? because you didn't start in the political realm, I don't [00:01:00] think.
[00:01:00] Lura Forcum: I didn't. I started in think tank land.
[00:01:03] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:01:03] Lura Forcum: so I've spent a lot of times in research centers where I was helping to promote research findings, basically like An organization that studied the Chicago Public Schools or studied regulation. Um, how do we explain to people what these findings say and why it matters for public policy?
[00:01:25] So I think my first love has always been, how can we have better public policy, and how can we bring people into conversation about what good public policy looks like, and also what they need and how public policy could meet those needs? ' Cause a lot of times policy conversations are happening completely outside of regular people's experiences. I did that work for a while and, and at the time I found it really a challenge to reach people with political ideas that were, and policy [00:02:00] ideas I should say, that were like different from what they already thought. And so what I decided was that, psychology and marketing knew the answer to this question of how do you persuade people, and I would just go learn how to do it.
[00:02:14] I have a PhD, um, I spent a lot of time as a marketing professor, and what I've learned in the course of that work is like there is no just persuade people, right? Like that is not really how people work. Um, I sort of inadvertently ended up studying what we now call tribalism.
[00:02:34] So in social psychology, um, we study ingroup and outgroup dynamics and conflict between groups. And at the time it wasn't a big focus of interest for me. Um, I was more interested in how people perceive each other and see themselves and relate to each other. you know, I decided at some point that academia was not the place for me, and that I wanted to go back to working [00:03:00] on policy questions.
[00:03:02] and what I found when I tried to like leave academia and come back to policy world was that things were so divisive that, we're not having conversations about the issues that plague us most. And so it sort of led me on this journey of like what is tribalism? I maintain that tribalism is a lot, there's a lot more to it.
[00:03:26] It's like we talk about what is really just the tip of the iceberg. but like we really need to understand all of the things that bring with it because as I was looking at our policy conversations and our political environment, I was just like the basis of all of this is dehumanization.
[00:03:42] nicole: Угу.
[00:03:43] Lura Forcum: And that's really scary to me because it, its ultimate goal is taking from other people and harming other people.
[00:03:51] So it's kind of like, uh, like pulling the car over when your kids are misbehaving because, like, you know, we can't talk about public [00:04:00] policy because right now we've decided that the other political side is like an existential threat, and we have to solve that before we can get back to sensible governing, self-governance, and policy conversations.
[00:04:15] Jolene: you talked about in, in this article that we read, tribalism versus competitive
[00:04:21] Lura Forcum: politics
[00:04:22] Jolene: Talk a little bit about the, the difference and, that says about our, our current state of politics.
[00:04:28] Lura Forcum: Yeah. So, I mean, if you think about politics, especially, you know, in, like, earlier administrations, like pre-2000, right? Um, there is a concerted effort to take those voters in the middle who might swing left for an election, swing right, were gettable voters, and to compete to understand them and deliver a p- platform, right, that spoke to their concerns.
[00:04:56] And that type of competition, I think, is [00:05:00] really good for creating spillover benefits, right? Because you could... It's almost like, you know, the parallel is, like, marketing a product, right? Where everybody's trying to serve this market, so they're making the product as good as they can, the price is as low as it can be.
[00:05:16] We're all competing for these voters or these consumers. that's changed. So tribal politics really says, "This is our group. Our group must win and hold power." And the underlying assumption of tribes is that the tribes are gonna share the resources and exclude everybody else from the resources, and that doesn't make any sense in representative democracy.
[00:05:43] You know? Like, there is no excluding. There are no goodies for your tribe to give to you. I realize that recently, like, we've had political moves that kind of are looking at like, "Well, could we change that? Could we make it so that you don't have full rights if you're not a member of our party? [00:06:00] Um, could we make it so that you don't get as many goodies?"
[00:06:03] and so far we haven't gone that route, but it's a very different style of politics, and it's one that kind of asks people to prove their membership in the party, right? Like, prove that you belong in the group and that you should get the, the goodies, um, and, and, like, sh- really demonstrate that you fit in.
[00:06:22] And, and one of the things that I think is also really problematic is that instead of the parties listening to voters and saying, "We should do what is important to these voters," what you end up with is the opposite direction, where they say, "You need to listen to us. We will tell you what the rules are, what is right, what is good, and you do what we say," which I think is completely backwards.
[00:06:47] nicole: W- Laura, when do you think that started? it hasn't always been this way, has it?
[00:06:52] Lura Forcum: No, I, I, definitely not. I mean, I think it's kind of been creeping in this direction over time. Um, I [00:07:00] think, you know, the compassionate conservatism of George H.W. Bush, you know, Clinton's sort of, uh, Blue Dog Democrat, like fiscally con- conservative Democrat, uh, campaign was similar, where it's, it's taking elements that appeal to both sides of the center and trying to get as close as you can to the center.
[00:07:25] In fact, when I was an undergraduate studying political science, I remember being taught that, like, the, the trick to winning an election was to get as close to the center as you could, and I thought about that recently as, as, you know, in the past few years where that's definitely not the case. Like, when did that change?
[00:07:44] Jolene: you even said this too, that, that we're even electing people who are the warriors.
[00:07:50] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:07:50] Jolene: and, and, and
[00:07:51] nicole: Right
[00:07:51] Jolene: the Graham Platners of the world or the Ken Paxtons, I mean, we're looking at those... We're trying to get, you know, almost the worst of the worst because,[00:08:00]
[00:08:00] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:08:00] Jolene: that tribalism is making us want to have these warriors that will win at all costs
[00:08:07] Lura Forcum: Yeah, it's a very different model of political leadership, right? To go, uh, be a warrior, to go fight for your side and attack the other side versus if you think about somebody who's a statesman. Um, if you think about the work of writing and passing legislation, it's the complete opposite of these warrior types, right?
[00:08:28] Like, passing legislation is boring. It involves, right, like copious amounts of research and writing and hearings and, and things that don't attract a lot of, social media attention or donations. And so while those people are busy doing the work of governing, the warriors are, you know, fanning the flames, launching grenades, and just generally kind of making our political environment unpleasant.
[00:08:57] Jolene: Yikes. [00:09:00] I mean, you're right. that's where we are.
[00:09:03] nicole: Okay so then when you talk about purity tests
[00:09:07] Jolene: you talked about, e- even endorsing something that, that proves that you
[00:09:14] nicole: belong in that
[00:09:15] tribe To get your goodie bag so I think we saw that with the MAGA movement, like, you know, u- and now we're seeing it with the Democratic socialists
[00:09:23] Lura Forcum: on the other side.
[00:09:24] Jolene: we're continuing to, I think, perpetrate that, this tribalism. what do we do? I mean, how do we fix it?
[00:09:30] Lura Forcum: Yeah. I mean, I do think it's important to note that it's, it's not a one side phenomenon. When I-- So I wrote this op-ed about purity tests i- among the Democratic socialists, the DSA, and I mention in the op-ed it's not unique to them, right? Like, we see this on both sides, and the purity tests are things that are hard to endorse that make it so that people know you're really a Democrat.
[00:09:57] So if you're willing to go out and say, [00:10:00] "I think we should abolish the Senate," or, um, you know, "I think we should get rid of the police force," right? Like, that's a pretty good indication you're actually one of them, and that's the whole purpose of a purity test. And, and, you know, we see it, I think, with MAGA as well, although I, I think there's some fracturing there,
[00:10:17] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:18] Lura Forcum: i- you know, as people kind of say, like, "I'm not sure that these are the things that I signed on for."
[00:10:24] But in terms of what we do about it, I think the first order of business is to stop treating these policy conversations like if we have them, we'll be harmed by hearing the ideas, right? Like, I think the-- it's the opposite inclination people have, which is don't try to stop the conversation, right? Like, uh, I, I did a radio interview with somebody after that op-ed and he said, "Well, do you think we should even be talking to this," the woman who is the head of the DSA.
[00:10:54] "Do you think we should even be talking to her?" And I said, "Yes, I do." So I think, like, the [00:11:00] first order of business is if somebody says, "We should abolish Congress or the Senate," um, to say, " okay. Tell me more about that." Like, what does, what, what does that accomplish? What's the problem that that solves?
[00:11:13] Where do you see that going? Do you think there would be any drawbacks? Not to change their mind, but to really understand, like, why is this appealing? And it's the same on the right, right? Like, if you have-- If somebody tells you they have concerns about immigration, then I think the answer is not to say, "Well, that makes you a bigot."
[00:11:33] It's to say, "What has your experience been?"
[00:11:37] nicole: there's a quote that you said in one of your interviews, and I'm if this has to do with what we're talking about. You said, uh, quote, "Communication is actually the barrier to good policymaking and improving people's lives. It could be a well-intentioned policy, that could actually harm people or have no impact at all, the result being [00:12:00] dumb policy."
[00:12:01] Lura Forcum: Yes.
[00:12:02] nicole: So it's about language, Jolene and I talk about it all the time, the way we are today, the divisiveness, and we're using very divisive language to shut each other down. And so I'm guessing part of your work is to create to open up the conversation So that policy goes in the direction you want it to go.
[00:12:26] Lura Forcum: yes, and that would be a good reason to hire me, but I actually do not get hired to do that really at all. ' the, the people that I am like, "Oh, these are my people. I love them, and I, I want to elevate them," are the policy wonks.
[00:12:43] Like, they're the people in largely Washington, DC, but you meet them in the States, too, and they are experts on floodplain maps or entitlement reform or energy policy, and they know so much. [00:13:00] They know what makes for good regulation. They may- they know what kind of messes you can make with bad regulation.
[00:13:07] I think that, you know, we aren't even unleashing them to their full capability because, because of the divisiveness, right? Like, we- we're just kind of like, "Oh, well, if you want that, it's 'cause you're bad. You're from the bad side, and, like, we can't even listen to you," right? So I, yeah, I would love to do more work working on this, like, communication element, right?
[00:13:28] Which is to say, "Well, here's how people actually think about this. Here's how people actually talk about this." most of the time when I talk to people in think tanks about this exact question, like, how could you talk to people? I, I'll say, like, "Has anybody talked to actual voters on these issues?"
[00:13:46] And the answer is always no
[00:13:47] Jolene: Oh my gosh
[00:13:49] Lura Forcum: And so I'm, I'm just like, this is, this... I could ask this, like, with every single consulting client I ever have. Like, has anybody talked to the people affected? And [00:14:00] they're kinda like, "Well, that's a silly idea."
[00:14:02] Jolene: Why would we talk to
[00:14:03] Lura Forcum: Exactly. Why would we talk to them? But, but, like, when you actually go and ask people, like, " you know, you're receiving SNAP benefits, you're not working, you're taking care of children.
[00:14:14] What is it that, that you would need to feel like you are flourishing?" Right? And maybe they will tell you, "You know what? I feel like the best thing I can do right now is take care of my kids, and I don't want them in daycare. I wanna take care of them, and in a couple years I'm gonna go back to work."
[00:14:31] Right? Like, or you might learn, like, "You know what? I can't get to work because I don't have reliable transportation, and that is in the way of everything. and that's the thing that I really need." Right? Like, you would learn so much by actually talking to these people about what their barriers are, and that's true regardless of whether you're talking about, you know, safety nets or talking about the regulatory policy that decides if you can build a new building or start a new company.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] All of those things I think have these surprising kind of on-the-ground, day-in-the-life implications for what it's like to live under those laws. And a lot of the times policymakers are just oblivious to them, 'cause they're so far removed. If you're in the halls of Congress, yeah.
[00:15:19] Jolene: in this DC bubble
[00:15:21] Lura Forcum: Exactly
[00:15:22] Jolene: don't get out.
[00:15:23] Lura Forcum: Yeah.
[00:15:24] nicole: But
[00:15:24] Jolene: are you working with?
[00:15:25] nicole: yeah.
[00:15:26] Jolene: like,
[00:15:26] nicole: I mean
[00:15:27] Jolene: like really,
[00:15:27] Lura Forcum: Yeah.
[00:15:28] Jolene: who
[00:15:28] Lura Forcum: So,
[00:15:29] Jolene: with?
[00:15:29] Lura Forcum: so I have two clients that I work with on issues of civic culture, and what we're trying to figure out is basically, like, what are the pre-political skills that people need to go back to governing themselves, right? To, like, to stop being tribal and say, "You know what? I can actually, like, listen to somebody who disagrees with me.
[00:15:55] I can contact a member of Congress that isn't of my party and [00:16:00] say in a polite and firm way, like, 'I disagreed with that. This is what I would like to see instead.'" Um, so there's those, like, pre-political skills. and then the other piece is, like, what are the relationships that we need to see among elected officials and institutions that help people keep those institutions healthy instead of letting them get hijacked by parties. So right now, we have so much distrust of institutions, right? Like, there's distrust of the media. There's distrust of the Supreme Court. trust of Congress has always just been in the trash. Uh, I don't know if that's fixable. I don't know."
[00:16:41] Jolene: North Korea more than Congress members?
[00:16:43] Lura Forcum: Uh, probably.
[00:16:44] nicole: Yeah, Jolene loves that. Jolene loves that one
[00:16:47] Lura Forcum: Yes. I am not surprised. Interestingly, if you're talking about individual members of Congress, people tend to trust their individual members of Congress. It's as a body that they don't trust it.[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Jolene: yeah
[00:17:00] Lura Forcum: and that's interesting to me because I'm like, "Who are those other people that you think are making up Congress?"
[00:17:08] Um, but the problem is when you don't trust the institution, you would rather it just get captured by your side, but then it can't do its job, right? So, uh, you know, if the Supreme Court is captured by one party or the other, then it's really of no use for sorting out our disagreements. And so i- in that environment, you see exactly what we're seeing right now, which is that the power kind of trickles upward to the executive, and it just becomes a case of a president saying, "I'll decide.
[00:17:38] I will decide. I'll be the decider. We don't trust these institutions. I'm taking this power for myself." and that's not how our system was designed to work.
[00:17:46] Jolene: ideally, you would work with policy makers, so you would work with the legislative assistants, let's say, to, to draw up a bill that, um, makes sense for trade or immigration or energy or
[00:17:59] Lura Forcum: I'm not [00:18:00] an expert on any of those things. Um, what I could tell them is, like, here's how people talk about this. Here's what they say is influencing them, um, in terms of, like, the environment, right? Here's how this, the problems in this area are landing on them. You know, I think immigration is a really good example of this.
[00:18:18] I think entitlement reform is a really good example of this, right? Where, um, you know, we are looking at the Social Security and Medicare running out of money, uh, and across the board cuts in just a few years, I think 2032, 2035. Yeah.
[00:18:38] nicole: 32. We just
[00:18:40] Lura Forcum: so
[00:18:40] nicole: on it.
[00:18:41] Lura Forcum: right. So, so that's around the corner.
[00:18:44] nicole: Yeah, it is
[00:18:45] Lura Forcum: The sooner we start to do something about it, the better.
[00:18:50] Um, and, and I just... You know, I hear a lot of baby boomers saying like, "Well, I have to get my money back out. I paid in."
[00:18:57] nicole: угу
[00:18:57] Lura Forcum: I'm like, "I understand that concern. [00:19:00] Also, everybody younger than you would also like to get their money out. So as long as we can't come to the table, then, then you're the only ones who are gonna get your money out."
[00:19:12] right? So, like, that's a really good example of, like, how could we talk about that in a way that, um, makes people willing to come to the table and do something about that before we drive that program off a cliff?
[00:19:26] Jolene: and I, in some riveting, exciting times of our life, spent hours watching CSPAN, um, congressional
[00:19:33] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:34] Jolene: Social Security. which oddly was exciting. I mean, it
[00:19:37] Lura Forcum: Yeah
[00:19:38] nicole: Ja, ja
[00:19:40] Jolene: and, uh, uh, but there's a bipartisan support to do... I mean, like, there were, you know, y- you had both sides of the aisle saying, "Okay, we, we, we, we know we have to fix this." What's going to be the impetus to get it done?
[00:19:53] Lura Forcum: I think it's gonna take younger voters starting to say that this actually is [00:20:00] affecting my affordability right now. Because I think, you know, I think legislators have tended to look at this issue and say, it only matters to people who are retirement age anyway, right? Like, those are the only people who care, we're just gonna listen to them.
[00:20:15] And right, and they are screaming and yelling and saying, "Don't you dare cut my benefits," right? Like, we're, you know, they're, they're gonna take away my money. Uh, it's very much fear-mongering. I think it's gonna take people who are younger than current retirees saying, "Hey, w- a lot of my paycheck right now is going to support people who actually don't need this money."
[00:20:38] and I look at it like, we should probably be means testing this program, right? We should... If we want it to work, we can't afford for it to provide a luxurious retirement to people who don't need the money. Because by doing that, it means that we can't give money to the people who actually need [00:21:00] it, right?
[00:21:00] Like, it's gonna be a 25% across the board cut for everybody, including the people with the least money available to them as retirees. so I think it's a matter of saying like, "You know what? This matters to, to me to solve because I'm looking forward to, you know, the near future when I retire," or even the long term, and saying like, "This is taking money out of my paycheck right now that I might otherwise use to buy a bigger house, have another kid, um, start a business, go back to school," right?
[00:21:34] Like, all these investments in early life that help people build wealth over their lifetimes, they're not able to make. Um, I think we actually ought to be looking at the example of the baby boomers, and the investments we made in them post-World War II that allowed them to become the most prosperous generation of retirees ever, and say, "What worked well, and [00:22:00] what can we replicate now?"
[00:22:01] Because let's help people create wealth for themselves, across their lifespan in the same way. And, and I don't think that that's what our, our entitlement programs are doing right now.
[00:22:11] nicole: I wanna go back, Laura, to this notion that the policymakers or the people that you've worked with, when you ask them, you talked to the voters?" And they say, "No." this to me is so mind-blowing and so stupid what do they think they're doing?
[00:22:35] Lura Forcum: That's a great question.
[00:22:36] nicole: What do they think they're doing? Because here's the other thing, like I'm not in the corporate world, so whe- whether it's Jolene or my husband's a lawyer, but like I'll hear of phone calls and I'm like, "Y'all have meetings about meetings and meetings and meetings." And like no one- I'm like, "No one's doing anything."
[00:22:51] And I just find it crazy. And I have this like idea of like, oh, we're sort of in this culture now that like if we have a meeting abou- about a meeting [00:23:00] about a meeting, I feel like I've done something, but I've done absolutely
[00:23:04] Lura Forcum: nothing.
[00:23:04] in terms of, like, what it would change if they were actually talking to voters, I mean, you can see this right now in the number of town halls that aren't happening, right?
[00:23:15] nicole: yes
[00:23:15] Lura Forcum: that kind of puzzles me, because when I look at it, what I see is you are cutting off the channels of subtle feedback, which means that the feedback that eventually makes its way to you is gonna be very loud and very disruptive, right?
[00:23:31] Like, you're gonna miss all these opportunities to course-correct and get back closer aligned with your voters because you refuse to hear them, and instead what you're gonna get is a lost election, right? Or, you know, primaried, whatever it is.
[00:23:46] I think the reason they don't center voters more, I would say it's twofold.
[00:23:50] I think one thing is we're all guilty of it, which is we tend to project, and we tend to assume that the things that we know, everybody else knows. [00:24:00] So if you're, you know, if you're thinking about a policy issue, then you just tend to assume that everybody thinks about it the way that you do, and that's not true, right?
[00:24:09] Like, you're not ex- you are... You don't have a lived, physical experience that is like ave- the average American if you're a member of Congress. You just don't. You're wealthy and educated, right? Like, you move through the world in a very different way. And so it's important, I think, to know what it is like to move through the world as a single mother or as somebody with, um, a blue-collar work or, you know, like a high school education, and it's really hard to get access to that unless you go sit with those people and say, "Well, tell me, tell me what this has been like for you.
[00:24:47] You think that immigration is, is ruining the country. Like, tell me what that has been like living here, um, and, you know, in your job, in your family, in your community." I understand [00:25:00] why we tend to assume that we have all the information. We don't need to go actually talk to people about their experience, um, but I do wish that we could, you know, convince people, um, to think about it differently.
[00:25:13] I do also think that there's a, a more sort of, um, philosophical stance, which is that the parties don't wanna center voters. Right now, they've been able... I think they've actually done a really effective job at identifying, like, the smallest possible cohort of voters that they can speak to, um, and still maintain political power,
[00:25:40] nicole: Угу,
[00:25:40] Lura Forcum: right?
[00:25:40] Like, they've both kind of gotten it down to a science of like, oh, it only, it actually only takes this tiny little base, right? And, and we can s- we can raise money from them. They respond in a very predictable and consistent way to- Our messaging, [00:26:00] you know, we fundraise, we get reelected, and it's, it's easier for us. we can sort of like cater to the interests of that base in a way that if we, if we speak to a larger group of voters, if we start letting voters influence things, then we- it won't be simple anymore. You know? We'll have to tell our donors like, "No, we couldn't do that sometimes." I think about it as like, it's like you need to turn around a ship, right? It's like the- you've gotten it backwards, and the engine is now in the wrong place, and you need to like totally reverse course and start sailing the proper way.
[00:26:40] Jolene: I think it'll be interesting. I just read this morning about the, the independent... You know, there's, there's quite a
[00:26:45] nicole: Oh yes
[00:26:47] Jolene: five or six that are running in kind of the upper Midwest.
[00:26:51] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:26:52] Jolene: Nebraska, South Dakota, um, Idaho, are they Democrats masquerading [00:27:00] as independents because these are, you know, traditionally red states would never dream of, you know, voting for a Democrat? But the Democrats are seeing, you know, maybe an opportunity for an independent because people may be like sick of Trump.
[00:27:15] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:27:15] Jolene: so you've got this, you've got this group of people that maybe now are, are more willing to listen to an independent.
[00:27:22] is that gonna help turn the tide?
[00:27:23] Lura Forcum: I hope so. So in, in some of my previous work with the Independent Center, I've advocated for access for independent voters because, you know, in some states it's hard for them. They may be excluded from primary voting, right? Um, a- and that's just for voters, right? Like, i- in terms of getting on the ballot, it c- it can be even more challenging in some states.
[00:27:47] So I look at it like political competition will make voters better off, period. and I understand that the political parties don't want competition. but the competition [00:28:00] I think is, is the only thing that's going to make elected officials do what I think they need to do, which is I think they need to be competing over who best understands voters and can respond to their problems.
[00:28:14] And you don't have to compete in a tribal setting, right? Because you just say, "Well, hey, you can't vote for the other guy. They're terrible. They're des- they hate this country. They're destroying it," right? So, so, like, what are the forces that are going to actually create better governing? So you can't vote for the other side. Okay. So, so then I don't have to be accountable to my voters because they have no other options.
[00:28:43] Jolene: Right
[00:28:44] Lura Forcum: I don't have to accept any critique. That's been one of the things that I think has been really interesting to me in the second Trump administration, is just the extent to which people on both parties, but also on the Republican side, have sort of said, "Oh, the way I [00:29:00] know you're not a Republican is if you criticize or disagree with our pro- policies.
[00:29:05] You can't criticize from within. That makes you a Democrat." and Democrats can't legitimately criticize Republicans, right? 'Cause you would just say, "Well, you know, of course you don't like us." what keeps you on the rails as a party? What keeps people principled? What keeps people, you know, embodying the values of the party if there is no internal critique and no external critique either?
[00:29:29] it's funny, when people talk about reform and they ask members of Congress to do it, I just think, oh, no, the inmates are running this asylum. They love how this asylum is run. Why are you asking them to reform when they're benefiting from this entire system? It's gonna have to come from outside.
[00:29:51] And yeah, Jolene, I know the, the critique of, like, well, are they secretly Democrats? And I think there's good reason to ask that [00:30:00] because we've seen Democrats supporting other candidates, right, in an effort to, to fracture, the Republican vote. So I, I think it's a fair question. Um, I, I've met some of those candidates and been really impressed with them.
[00:30:16] Um, I think they, they tend to be sort of similar to independent voters, which is to say they're not centrists. They're people with some views on the left, some views on the right, and that mix makes it so that they don't fit comfortably on one side or the other. and so I think they're actually a really powerful force for political reform, and I, I hope they start to worry the political parties ' cause I think they've gotten entirely too comfortable with the, the current dynamic. And, you know, they're, they're sort of, like, dictating terms to the American voter, you know?
[00:30:56] They're saying, like, "Well, we will decide. Give your power to us. [00:31:00] Give your money to us. Give your vote to us, your loyalty. Give us everything." And I'm like, "Well, what do I get back? What do I get from you? Are you a public servant? Are you my king? Are you my..." Right? Like, the vassal
[00:31:12] nicole: right
[00:31:13] Lura Forcum: lord. Um, this is not how the system was designed to work.
[00:31:18] nicole: No
[00:31:18] Jolene: if they, and I think they have, some of them have, have pledged to not caucus
[00:31:25] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:31:25] Jolene: side, that would make a difference.
[00:31:28] nicole: I'm just making stuff up right now, but, like, let's say one of these independents or f- three of these independents in as, as senators. If they've said, "I'm not gonna caucus on the left or the right," they gonna be appointed to any committee? Like, if
[00:31:43] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:31:43] nicole: if they have all the, if the left and the right have all the power, Cause part of the thing with We've Got to Talk is, like, our audience we don't care if you're a Republican, Dem, or Democrat.
[00:31:53] We don't care. Be whatever you wanna be. We're not gonna change your mind. We don't wanna change your w- mind. We want to [00:32:00] empower you. We want you to know. We are, we also understand how incredibly frustrated you are. We are.
[00:32:06] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:32:06] nicole: why we started this podcast, and we have all these incredible guests like you coming on who are also frustrated.
[00:32:13] Lura Forcum: Yes
[00:32:15] nicole: what side of the aisle we're on. you have advice to, like, an average American person who's feeling, "I don't wanna vote.
[00:32:23] I don't trust it. I think it's all ridiculous. They're all rich. They don't care about me." What, what would you... Like, do you start on the local level?
[00:32:32] What would you suggest? Do you have assignments?
[00:32:35] Угу
[00:32:35] Lura Forcum: do. I mean, I try to, to be transparent about my voting as an independent because I, I think a lot of people, when you say to them, "Are you gonna vote?" You know, "What do you think about politics?" What they envision is that they need to take up the banner of the Republicans or the Democrats and go be nasty on social [00:33:00] media to people and defend their side and, um, accept all the policy positions, right?
[00:33:05] And you can do politics that way, and like you guys, I'm not here to tell anybody how to vote or how to be political. What I do wanna say to people who don't like that idea, that idea of, like, very tribal politics, is actually it would be great if you voted, and you can swing vote, you can split ticket vote, um, you can consult a voting guide, you can ask them, you can go to candidate events, you can talk to AI, uh, right?
[00:33:36] Like, any of those things, and just go cast ballots for the people that you think are decent people. You don't... I look at it like, uh, you know what? I don't need to agree with you on every policy position. so we have a weird case here in South Carolina because of the death of former Senator Lindsey Graham, right?
[00:33:55] So we have an unexpected Republican primary, and I was kind of talking [00:34:00] through, like, what am I thinking about when I go vote in this Republican primary? And I vote in Republican primaries because I can do that in this state. And so my priorities are, I want somebody who is jealous of the role of Congress, right, of the responsibilities of a senator, and wants to, like, maintain that power within the body instead of using it to rubber-stamp the executive.
[00:34:27] Um, I want somebody who cares about our spending and, and who thinks that we need to rein in our spending one way or the other. We need to get serious. We're not gonna grow our way out of it. Um, it's, it's time to get serious about the deficit. and then somebody who seems like they are a public servant.
[00:34:44] And so those are my priorities. Here's how I evaluate the candidates. uh, you know, I didn't support Darlene Graham. Like, I'm, I'm, haven't voted for her, um, and I was really actually concerned about a lot of the campaign rhetoric
[00:34:58] nicole: Угу.
[00:34:59] Lura Forcum: was coming [00:35:00] out during the primary. That, to me, is disqualifying. So when there's dehumanizing language in political campaigns, um, I'm...
[00:35:10] Like, you've lost my support. So the, the point of all that is to say You can participate without being a rabid partisan. And you can, you know, you can find, like, what are your primary criteria? Maybe you care that somebody, um, seems like a public servant. You know, you care that they answer your calls. Uh, those types of things matter, and I would say go to the ballot box on those issues.
[00:35:36] You don't have to be in love with these candidates. What we, what we need, actually, is more people voting, who are more moderate, right? Like, the, the people who turn out, especially in primaries, are the people with the most extreme views, and in a lot of s- cases and districts, that primary result is the general election result,
[00:35:59] nicole: talk
[00:35:59] Lura Forcum: right?
[00:35:59] nicole: [00:36:00] time. Like, that's way more important.
[00:36:02] Lura Forcum: Ja
[00:36:02] nicole: And all these good people got primaried out, right and left.
[00:36:06] Lura Forcum: Yes. So go vote in your primary, right? Like, and I- because I'm not a partisan, I don't get materials telling me to go vote in the primaries. A- and I suspect a lot of people who are not party members aren't even aware that they're happening, because you're not getting
[00:36:25] nicole: Right
[00:36:27] Lura Forcum: that would tell you that they're happening.
[00:36:29] So stay on top of primaries, go vote for people that you think are decent. Um, I think it makes a difference to contact your member of Congress, not to excoriate them, but to also reach out and say like, "Hey, thanks for doing this. I saw that you did this. This made a difference to me. Thank you." Um, if you can do that, if, you know,
[00:36:52] nicole: their
[00:36:53] Lura Forcum: it...
[00:36:53] nicole: be blown. They're
[00:36:54] Lura Forcum: Yes.
[00:36:55] nicole: You just said
[00:36:56] Lura Forcum: I, I think about it. I mean, I think so many people [00:37:00] are waiting to go vote until they have a candidate in front of them that they are excited about, and, and we can get there, but it's gonna mean that you vote in five elections between now and then where you're not very excited. But the way we get those candidates is to say, like, there is a market, there's an appetite.
[00:37:21] You're gonna have to look more like this in order to win.
[00:37:24] it's kind of like hold your nose, get together with some friends and say, "I really don't feel good about this, but I'm gonna do it."
[00:37:31] it's not gonna feel great, but this is the only path to influence we have.
[00:37:36] Dropping out because the people are there for you to choose from, are unpleasant just kind of leaves it to the people who think that this is great, right? Like, the problem with the, the dropping out approach for voters is that, like, we didn't stop having elections. We, we just left the elections to the people who think that this is, is [00:38:00] good leadership, good government.
[00:38:02] nicole: Right. Right.
[00:38:03] Lura Forcum: so yeah, vote in your primary
[00:38:05] nicole: yeah, we just had Brad Porteous back on, he said 100 million registered voters didn't vote, and that if we just got couple
[00:38:17] of percent, it could switch, it could switch. Like, and it's those voters who probably are the most defeated that are like,
[00:38:26] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:38:26] nicole: And they actually have the most power
[00:38:29] Lura Forcum: Yes
[00:38:30] nicole: actually went to the ballot box and said, "Okay, I'm gonna vote for this person who I think is pretty decent. I'd
[00:38:36] Lura Forcum: Yep, it's
[00:38:37] nicole: than that person, and maybe it's that person is not in my party, and that's, that's okay."
[00:38:44] Lura Forcum: Mm-hmm. Absolutely
[00:38:46] nicole: take the jerseys off
[00:38:48] Lura Forcum: Yes.
[00:38:49] nicole: okay. Like, I
[00:38:50] Lura Forcum: And I think,
[00:38:52] nicole: again
[00:38:53] Lura Forcum: yes, decency and public service,
[00:38:55] nicole: Угу
[00:38:56] Lura Forcum: that, you know, having policy positions [00:39:00] is well and good, but what percentage of those policies are even going to come up in somebody's term, right? Like, a, a lot of,
[00:39:08] nicole: Right
[00:39:13] Lura Forcum: and South Carolina, and it's like, I, you know, I think you have other things you can focus on, uh, right?
[00:39:21] Like, you know, or they're talking about, like, uh, immigration in, in South Carolina, and it's like, well, I mean, yes, reasonable, but sir, you are running for agriculture commissioner. So, like, so for some of these policy issues, it's kind of like, okay, I hear that, I hear that you have a position, but, like, what are the odds that anything is gonna, any legislation's even gonna come up that addresses that policy issue?
[00:39:49] None. But every day you need to go to the office and be somebody who is a servant leader, right, who is there to do the public will rather [00:40:00] than, um, you know, rubber stamp what the president says, power trip, um, you know, make money, trade favors, all of that. And so, um, I will take decency even where there's policy disagreement.
[00:40:17] Jolene: Yeah. I agree.
[00:40:19] nicole: Absolutely. So yes, this
[00:40:21] Jolene: This was such a great
[00:40:22] nicole: is great. Laura, before we, before we get into the fun stuff, not that this wasn't fun, 'cause this was fun actually,
[00:40:28] Lura Forcum: This wasn't fun
[00:40:29] nicole: no, it was very fun. But is there, like, do you wanna tell our listeners and viewers, like plug your podcast, t- talk about your writing? I think it's How to Be Human or How to
[00:40:39] Lura Forcum: Yeah, my, so my newsletter is on Substack and LinkedIn. It's free, either one. It's called How to Human, and I talk about different aspects of social psychology and kind of like how they influence us. So, um, when I'm not trying to get people to, to [00:41:00] reengage civically, uh, the other way I entertain myself is by cheerleading our social cognition abilities, because we have an amazing ability to read the minds of the people around us and coordinate behavior with the people around us.
[00:41:15] We do it instantly and automatically. Like, we just have this incredible capability. Our minds evolved to relate to other people. And so in that newsletter, I talk a lot about just different aspects of, of how our brains help us relate to other people in groups, individually, um, and it's sort of like my musing, that I, I don't get to do anywhere else.
[00:41:40] Um, I also have a podcast called We Made This Political with Lauren Hall, and we talk about our experience. So she's a political scientist, I'm a psychologist, and we both are, uh, moms of three. And so we talk about what we learned, what we have learned about government and politics, [00:42:00] not only from, like, our academic backgrounds, but from parenting.
[00:42:03] And so I was telling you guys at the beginning, it kind of came about because we were like- You know, we can't even make our kids do stuff. Why do people think that they can use the government to make other people do stuff? and that's our big learning, I think, is that, like, it's less about a question of control, although we're tempted to think about everything in terms of control.
[00:42:25] It's a matter of relationship, and I am really interested in, like, what are our civic relationships like? What harms them, and how can we make them healthy again? Because I think we've forgotten in all of this tribalism that when you tell people that they're bad people, that they're ignorant or bignet- bigoted or, um, you know, just stupid, right?
[00:42:49] Like, that, that harms a relationship, and we're gonna have to repair those relationships at some point if we want to get our govern- governing, [00:43:00] self-governing back on track. Um, so I have a very relational view of our civic lives, and, and that's a lot of my writing and podcasting as well is, like, these are actually relationships.
[00:43:11] How do we make them healthy and keep them healthy? And we can disagree and have relationships, right? Like, you guys are the, the proof of that. Like, a relationship is not built on agreement. It's, uh, built on this, sense that, like, we can repair it, we can come back together, and that, that our bond with each other is more important than things that we disagree about.
[00:43:33] nicole: as humans, we, constantly sit in discomfort. We're always gonna bump up against each other.
[00:43:39] Lura Forcum: Mm-hmm
[00:43:40] nicole: if you think a lot alike, it doesn't matter. Like, just as a human being, I just-- This idea that we're all supposed to think and do exactly the same
[00:43:50] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:43:51] nicole: if you don't, you're out of the club. it's so mean, Laura.
[00:43:56] Lura Forcum: Yes
[00:43:57] nicole: mean, where-- And [00:44:00] so violent. The,
[00:44:02] Lura Forcum: Yes
[00:44:03] nicole: about on social media and things like that, I... Jolene, did you listen to Mo News this morning? Okay. There is a bar in that, I guess during COVID took it upon themselves to, uh, become a place for people that are immunocompromised. So they had a mask... O- obviously, mask mandate in 2020, but they kept it. They've kept it. It's 2026. They've kept it every day s- for six years. They are about to lose their business because not everybody wants to put a mask on in 2026, okay? They made the suggestion for Saturday nights taking the mask off, and the unbelievable hate that came
[00:44:55] Lura Forcum: Wow
[00:44:56] nicole: how can you-- Like, "You're being ableist." And to the [00:45:00] point, Laura, that they said, "You should be firebombed." It just became this whole... And I'm thinking, I'm listening to this and I'm thinking, "Okay, I'm gonna talk to Laura today," this is crazy.
[00:45:13] Like,
[00:45:13] Lura Forcum: Yeah
[00:45:14] nicole: Like, when you're saying that you write about, like, relations and, and, and connections and how... Like, we are s- so unhealthy. We're in such an unhealthy
[00:45:28] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:45:28] nicole: Now, you, me, the three of us probably are not in that space. But there is-- We are seeing evidence that there are, there are... Maybe they're the fringes. And, and maybe they're really struggling. They have
[00:45:41] Lura Forcum: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:42] nicole: You
[00:45:42] Lura Forcum: Right
[00:45:43] nicole: in so much pain to me of- I'm thinking, "Well, of, course there is this bigger issue of, of we really need to heal-"
[00:45:52] Lura Forcum: I think we can heal while we do stuff together, I think doing things [00:46:00] together in person is one of the most important ways to kind of, like, reestablish trust, especially across political divides.
[00:46:08] it's really easy to caricature people's perspective through the distance of the internet, right? Or the distance of social media where you're saying, "Oh, all leftists think this way," or, "All MAGA does this," you know? I hear people talking in this way, and it's strai- I, I've started to think of it as like they're speaking, like, tribalese or something.
[00:46:30] It's, it's like something is taking them over.
[00:46:32] nicole: Yes
[00:46:33] Lura Forcum: this, like, tone and this word choice that's just kind of ranting. we have to go back to face-to-face interaction, I think is a big part of it. Um, I don't know what we can really do about social media besides more and more of us kind of step away and say,
[00:46:49] nicole: угу
[00:46:50] Lura Forcum: " Maybe there's a role for social media in my life somewhere, but I also need to be cognizant of the, of its limitations."
[00:46:58] And it does encourage people to [00:47:00] use violent language because you're trying to be heard, and the algorithm rewards it, right?
[00:47:05] Jolene: right
[00:47:06] Lura Forcum: but if you really want to deeply understand the people around you, if you're trying to coordinate your behavior, that actually, like, creates a lot of mind perception because you need to understand each other and what your goals are and how you look at the world in order to coordinate your behavior.
[00:47:27] And that might be coordinating to pick up trash together. It might be coordinating because you're gonna have an event together, right? You're gonna, like, paint fences. I, you know, whatever it is. It doesn't have to be a, a really noble cause. It can be something fun. But it's that coordination and joint problem-solving that actually lets us understand the people in front of us instead of saying like, "Oh, that's just a Trump voter.
[00:47:54] That's just a, you know, a DSA supporter."
[00:47:57] nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow.[00:48:00]
[00:48:00] Jolene: Good stuff.
[00:48:01] nicole: Thank you very, very much. Um,
[00:48:04] Lura Forcum: you, guys
[00:48:05] nicole: do you have a good for the soul?
[00:48:08] Lura Forcum: I do. So I, I hope this is okay, but my good for the soul is, is not a consuming thing, it's a doing thing. Um, so my... It's an assignment. This is my real assignment. Like, yes, go vote in your primary, but also, um, have a potluck, have a barbecue, have an open house. I started doing this. This is, I'm in almost my second full year of it.
[00:48:38] I have one every other month for my neighborhood, and, like, my church has a service at a historical church down the street from me. So they, they, th- we have the service once a month, and afterwards I'm just like, "Come, come eat. Like, bring a dish, come eat." And so I never know who's coming because I don't get RSVPs.
[00:48:58] I just say, like, "Come, we're gonna [00:49:00] eat whatever people bring." and it has been the most tremendous gift. Like, it's not, it's not like labor for me. It's like I feel like it's something I'm doing for myself. Um, I, I feel like I'm feeding my community, th- we're feeding each other.
[00:49:18] Jolene: Yeah
[00:49:18] Lura Forcum: and it's just, it's been, like, the most wonderful, humbling thing to break bread with other people.
[00:49:25] Um, I grew up with, like, so many potlucks. I don't know if it's a regional thing. I don't know if you guys did, but there are, like, family reunion potlucks and church potlucks and neighborhood potlucks, and it was, like, so much fun to just go eat. It was a party. Yeah. and so after COVID, I was like, "Gosh, it's been forever since anybody's had a potluck.
[00:49:48] Like, I wish somebody would have a potluck." Um, and after a few years of that, I was like, "I guess it's gonna be me.
[00:49:54] Jolene: me. I'm the one who's
[00:49:57] Lura Forcum: Apparently, I will be doing it." it's [00:50:00] been amazing. I can't recommend it enough to just, like, invite kinda random folks and, and break bread together. You know, you can make it a barbecue, you can make it an open house with cookies and junk food and let the children run amok.
[00:50:14] That's a big part of it. yeah. And so,
[00:50:17] nicole: to know your community too,
[00:50:18] Lura Forcum: yeah. Yes. You,
[00:50:21] nicole: might not, you might have not had a conversation with before
[00:50:24] Lura Forcum: Exactly. And I love the fact, like, this has been, mine has been going on now for a little while, and, like, people feel comfortable to come late, or they feel comfortable to say, like, "You know, I'm not gonna eat anything 'cause I didn't have time to make a dish, and so I just came for the company." And it's like, "I love that you just came for the company.
[00:50:45] Also, please eat because
[00:50:46] nicole: Right.
[00:50:48] Lura Forcum: there's plenty of food."
[00:50:49] nicole: like, it makes your life cozier.
[00:50:51] Lura Forcum: It does. It really does.
[00:50:54] nicole: miss cozy,
[00:50:55] Lura Forcum: like, it feels really communal, um, and you hear, you know, I hear interesting [00:51:00] stuff from the folks in the neighborhood, and
[00:51:03] Jolene: Oh, I'm
[00:51:04] Lura Forcum: you know, like you just kind of like you learn things that you didn't know should be questions, and it's, it's amazing
[00:51:10] nicole: you have one stoplight now instead of two? Is
[00:51:13] Lura Forcum: Exactly.
[00:51:14] Exactly. You learn about why you are not gonna have two stoplights anymore, and the advantages, frankly.
[00:51:21] nicole: you go.
[00:51:22] Lura Forcum: so yeah. So have a potluck. That's... It, and when I tell people that, you wouldn't believe how often they're like, "You know, I've been thinking I should do that." So if you've been thinking you should have a potluck, like, consider this your, your message to have a potluck
[00:51:36] nicole: I love it.
[00:51:36] Jolene: is your
[00:51:37] nicole: I
[00:51:38] Lura Forcum: Yep.
[00:51:39] nicole: All right. now we are gonna play would you rather, and so Jolene is gonna hit you with one, and then you can hit us back.
[00:51:47] Lura Forcum: Okay
[00:51:53] Jolene: Lura,
[00:51:54] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:51:55] Jolene: would you rather around all day with gum on [00:52:00] the bottom of your shoe or honey stuck between your fingers?
[00:52:05] Lura Forcum: Wow
[00:52:06] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:52:08] Lura Forcum: Wow
[00:52:10] Jolene: And you can't wash your hands,
[00:52:11] Lura Forcum: And you can't wash your hands.
[00:52:13] Jolene: yeah, like,
[00:52:14] Lura Forcum: I'm, I'm gonna go with honey between my fingers because, um, I, you know, my kids aren't that old. It hasn't been that long since I spent whole days being sticky,
[00:52:25] Jolene: With
[00:52:25] Lura Forcum: or worse. So I feel like I'm well prepared for that.
[00:52:31] nicole: You can work with that. You
[00:52:33] Lura Forcum: I can, yeah.
[00:52:34] nicole: That's good.
[00:52:35] Jolene: I like it.
[00:52:36] nicole: All right
[00:52:37] Jolene: you guys take the, your shoes off at,
[00:52:40] nicole: absolutely. Absolutely. We're,
[00:52:43] Lura Forcum: Is that a, that's a workaround then? So you could just
[00:52:46] nicole: we're a no
[00:52:47] Lura Forcum: take the shoe off
[00:52:48] nicole: New York City, it's gross. It- you have to have your shoes at the door. It's just too gross, the things that people step on.
[00:52:55] And I, we take our shoes off no matter what. When I go to someone's house, I wanna take my shoes [00:53:00] off. It just
[00:53:00] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:53:01] nicole: the kind thing to do. I don't need to bring my, my gum or whatever
[00:53:06] Lura Forcum: Угу
[00:53:06] Jolene: takes her shoes off in a plane. That's a whole nother thing
[00:53:10] nicole: Um, I don't...
[00:53:12] Jolene: I struggle with that one.
[00:53:14] nicole: Listen.
[00:53:14] Lura Forcum: the thing that really divides the two of you.
[00:53:17] nicole: you go.
[00:53:17] Jolene: yeah. If
[00:53:18] nicole: I'm not gonna... Listen.
[00:53:20] Jolene: abortion or immigration,
[00:53:23] nicole: First of all, number one, I'm clean, and I'm wearing socks, and I haven't been taking them off because you don't like it.
[00:53:30] Jolene: so proud of
[00:53:31] nicole: But if I'm going on a long trip, I take the shoes off, girl. Listen, a
[00:53:36] Lura Forcum: I do, I do too.
[00:53:37] nicole: you gotta be comfy. T-
[00:53:39] Lura Forcum: I do too.
[00:53:39] nicole: you co- cozy like a, like a potluck.
[00:53:42] Lura Forcum: This might make me sound crazy, but I do wait until after takeoff and landing in case I need to quickly evacuate
[00:53:50] nicole: do I.
[00:53:50] Jolene: uh, no, I think that's,
[00:53:51] nicole: Absolutely. Mm-hmm.
[00:53:54] Lura Forcum: just following the, the flight attendant instructions. I will leave my luggage behind, and I will be [00:54:00] wearing my shoes.
[00:54:00] nicole: That's right.
[00:54:01] Jolene: Okay.
[00:54:02] nicole: go.
[00:54:02] Jolene: You've thought, you've given it some
[00:54:03] nicole: Well, and lately they've been announcing with the slides and the emergency thing, they're like, "Don't wear... Take your h- or yeah, take your high heels off." And I'm thinking to myself,
[00:54:12] Lura Forcum: Oh, really? Oh, 'cause you're gonna pop the slides
[00:54:15] nicole: I'm like, what? I haven't seen any women wearing high heels on a plane in a millennia.
[00:54:20] Like, I'm
[00:54:21] Lura Forcum: Ja
[00:54:21] nicole: talking about? But I guess somebody is.
[00:54:24] Lura Forcum: I haven't heard that one.
[00:54:26] nicole: s- you know, pop that slide.
[00:54:29] Jolene: Spike it
[00:54:30] nicole: Anyway, okay
[00:54:32] Jolene: Do you ha- do
[00:54:33] Lura Forcum: I,
[00:54:33] Jolene: you rather for
[00:54:34] Lura Forcum: I do. Okay, here's my would you rather.
[00:54:37] Jolene: Jeff
[00:54:37] Lura Forcum: Would you rather be part of a group where everybody agrees with you but you aren't allowed to say what you really think, or would you rather be part of a group where nobody agrees with you but you can say whatever you want?
[00:54:52] Jolene: Nicole, you go
[00:54:54] nicole: I, I'm just laughing 'cause I'm looking at your face, Jo and I'm like, "I know what I'm gonna say, and I have a [00:55:00] feeling we're opposite."
[00:55:02] Jolene: So I'm gonna say I would absolutely rather be in a group where no one agrees with me and I can say what I want
[00:55:13] Yeah, you're right. I am the opposite.
[00:55:15] Lura Forcum: Really?
[00:55:18] Jolene: I, I, yeah.
[00:55:20] Lura Forcum: I feel like
[00:55:21] Jolene: sensitiva
[00:55:22] nicole: I am the Sensitiva.
[00:55:24] Lura Forcum: I feel like the older I get, the, the more I've lost the ability to not say what I think. Like, I just can't, I can't keep it in. it's gonna come out one way or the other.
[00:55:35] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:55:35] nicole: And I think this podcast has taught me a lot about that, too, about learning how to approach people that don't think the way I do, and that there's even, there are situations where I have really good friends that will... It happened the other day. She texts me about the, the Ed Sheeran Palestinian thing, and she started, like, [00:56:00] just being very aggressive on the texts. And this is a liberal to liberal, and I, you know, had the gut reaction as we all do, but I was like, "Nicole, take a deep breath," and just, "Okay," like, "I hear you, and let's figure this out."
[00:56:17] And I could say exactly what I needed to say, and it was pretty much opposite of what she thought, but I, the way I was able to listen to her, she heard it. And so I have some confidence now, as a 57-year-old woman doing this podcast for two years, that I'm like, "I think I could hold my own in a, in a group of people that don't agree with me." Because that idea, Joe, of like, I mean, God, who doesn't wanna belong? I wanna belong. But are you really belonging when you're in a
[00:56:50] Lura Forcum: group
[00:56:50] nicole: you don't believe the same, that, that you can't express yourself? No but I just want
[00:56:55] everybody
[00:56:56] Jolene: to, to get along. Just want everybody to be happy. [00:57:00] Kumbaya,
[00:57:02] nicole: my
[00:57:03] Jolene: Lord.
[00:57:03] nicole: I was like, "You used to say that about me. What has happened?"
[00:57:08] Jolene: How have we changed,
[00:57:10] nicole: Oh my gosh.
[00:57:11] Jolene: you so much for
[00:57:12] nicole: Yes, thank you very much
[00:57:14] Jolene: were- are delightful. We've enjoyed
[00:57:16] Lura Forcum: you
[00:57:16] nicole: have
[00:57:18] Jolene: read your articles and listening to
[00:57:20] nicole: Ja
[00:57:21] Jolene: interviews that you were on. We knew that we would love you, so,
[00:57:24] Lura Forcum: Oh.
[00:57:24] nicole: Yes
[00:57:25] Lura Forcum: you so much for inviting me. I've really em- enjoyed chatting with you, and I love the project that you guys have. I think it's just a great example, like we don't have to agree to get along
[00:57:35] nicole: Thank you. Thank you. And we'll put all your stuff in the show notes so we can spread the Laura For- Forcum love.
[00:57:42] Lura Forcum: Thank you. Thank you so much
[00:57:45] nicole: All right. Uh, thanks everybody. Press thumbs up, like, subscribe, and share. Share for, with people that you don't think you can talk to and that you can
[00:57:57] Jolene: Have over for a potluck
[00:57:58] Lura Forcum: yes.
[00:57:59] nicole: [00:58:00] Have over
[00:58:00] Lura Forcum: and then have a potluck.
[00:58:01] nicole: you go. Thank you, Laura.
[00:58:04] Jolene: Bye
[00:58:04] Lura Forcum: you. Bye
