Why Adam Cronkright Wants to Fire Every Politician in America
We’ve lost a lot of trust in politicians in America and it’s not hard to see why. They are performing, fundraising, protecting their careers, and somehow the problems keep getting worse. So the real question is not who should win next. The real question is whether this whole setup is broken, and whether there is a better way to run a country than turning leadership into a permanent campaign.
Adam Cronkright made a film called Goodbye Politicians, Hello Democracy, and the premise is as blunt as the title. What if we stopped outsourcing everything to a professional political class and started taking turns governing again, the way a democracy is supposed to work? A real process where regular people are selected by lottery, brought together, supported with staff and experts, and asked to make decisions on behalf of their community.
The idea sounds radical until you sit with it for five minutes and realize how normal it actually is. We already trust ordinary citizens to make serious decisions in jury duty. We already accept that a cross-section of people can listen to evidence, weigh it up, disagree, and still land somewhere honest. Adam’s point is that elections do not give us “the best,” they give us a political class. Campaigns reward performance, parties reward loyalty, and the whole system turns into a popularity contest where the incentives are all wrong. You are not rewarded for good faith. You are rewarded for winning, fundraising, and humiliating the other side.
What moved us most about Adam’s film is that it shows what happens when you remove the game. In 2020, in Michigan, thirty ordinary people were selected through a multi-step lottery process and asked to work through pandemic decisions together. They owed nothing to a party. They were not angling for re-election. They were not trying to clip a moment for social media. They were just citizens, showing up in good faith, trying to do a good job. Watching that feels almost shocking now, because we have gotten so used to politics being theatre that we forget what it looks like when people are actually trying.
Adam is not naive about the obstacles. He is clear that politicians as a group are not going to volunteer themselves out of a job, and he is also clear that he does not trust the system to produce accountability just because we can “vote them out.” The kind of accountability he is talking about is different. It is the accountability of serving for a limited term, then going back to your real life, living next to the people affected by the decisions you helped make. You cannot hide behind a brand when you are still the same person in the same community.
We also talked about the fear people always raise first: what if you get a crazy person. Adam’s answer was calm and honestly kind of relieving. Most people are not extreme. The system amplifies extremes because outrage wins in the current political game. When you take away the competition and put people in a room where they have to solve something together, a lot of the fringe energy softens. People often just want to be heard. When they are actually listened to, they become more reasonable, not more dangerous.
Underneath all of it is a bigger question Adam kept coming back to. What does “by the people” actually mean? Are we citizens, or are we spectators? Because right now, a lot of politics feels less like self-government and more like American Idol, where we watch performers compete for power and we get one little vote every few years.
We are not pretending this is simple. It is a massive shift in how to think about representation, power, and responsibility. But it is the first idea in a long time that has made us feel something other than dread. If you are tired of the two-party cage match, tired of being told your only job is to pick a team, this is an alternative worth sitting with. At the very least, it reminds you that democracy does not have to look like this.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Goodbye Politicians, Hello Democracy: https://goodbyepoliticians.movie/
Adam's Good for the Soul: My Unsung Hero podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/my-unsung-hero/id1586880312
https://open.spotify.com/show/2lBDAGE8UkizPEC2ZjmgaP
LINKS:
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Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/weve-got-to-talk/id1797423701
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0qJVgTvjciUffRmoUienx2
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[00:00:00] nicole: She's conservative, and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money, and we say that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head but are too scared to say out loud.
[00:00:19] Welcome to We've Got to Talk. Welcome, Adam Cronkright.
[00:00:24] Jolene: Adam Cronkright grew up outside of Syracuse, New York, and earned a degree in both economics and global development studies at Queen's University in Canada. He founded Democracy in Practice in 2013, which reinvented civic and leadership education by replacing student elections with democratic lotteries. 2019, he started working on the project Goodbye Politicians, Hello Democracy, and found himself in the role of filmmaker to put his democratic lotteries into action. Adam. We're so glad you're with us.
[00:00:58] Adam Cronkright: Oh, wonderful to be here, Jolene and [00:01:00] Nicole
[00:01:00] nicole: Before we get into this beautiful film that I've had the privilege of watching three times, and Jolene has seen it twice, let's talk about you first, Adam, because you didn't start out as a filmmaker.
[00:01:11] Adam Cronkright: I don't see myself as a filmmaker. I, I did, um, as Jolene, I think alluded to, kind of fell into this, this role but I have been passionate for a long time democracy growing up, uh, one of my earliest memories on this front was, originally I wanted to go into politics and, and be a politician.
[00:01:29] and, my first lesson was, was that seemingly all the people that I admired in my community, whether it was my parents, teachers, coaches, they were all dissuading me from that idea. You know, it's kind of like, "Why would you wanna do that? You're a good young guy, you know? Like, do something that's gonna help
[00:01:47] Jolene: you
[00:01:47] Adam Cronkright: right?
[00:01:48] And I was like, "Oh, something's very off here about, you know, um, what is supposed to be a service," right? you know, over time, I, I came to see that, yeah, like, that's probably not gonna be, uh, a [00:02:00] route that I would go into, uh, and, and be able to, um, make the type of change that I, I grew up wanting to, to contribute to.
[00:02:06] my thinking started to shift around like, well, okay, well, well, why is politics like that? You know, why do we put up with it being like that? And is there no other way in which we could make decisions in our communities, in our country, good people, you know, wanted to be involved in
[00:02:24] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:24] Adam Cronkright: and then eventually, you know, I was... Like a lot of people in this space, I thought I had kinda come up with this idea that, you know, maybe we would pick regular people, say, in a lottery, and, uh, and then you find out that it's actually, uh, uh, it goes way, way back. Um, I was, uh, trying to learn more about that, and then Occupy Wall Street started up, and I heard that, um, you know, they're doing general assemblies, and there's, like, these consensus and working groups. And so, I thought, "Well, maybe there's gonna be some openness to, to kind of reimagining how we [00:03:00] make decisions more broadly."
[00:03:01] And, um, and so I went down to, to Occupy in, in New York City, and, that was really my first exposure to the big city there,
[00:03:09] nicole: Угу, угу
[00:03:10] Adam Cronkright: I became quite disillusioned actually with what I found
[00:03:13] nicole: Ja
[00:03:13] Adam Cronkright: and I didn't feel like there was a real serious desire to, um, look at, okay, how would we actually restructure things politically? but yeah. So, um, uh, continued on my journey, um, you know, as, as Jolene mentioned, um, found my way into working in schools, replacing student elections with lotteries, trying to democratize civic education. and then eventually, uh, decided I really wanted to turn, turn the attention to, to the, the big bad arena of, of politics in this country
[00:03:42] Jolene: we wanna talk about the film because, um, y- y- you know, our friend Brad Porteous,
[00:03:48] Adam Cronkright: Hmm
[00:03:49] Jolene: drink if
[00:03:49] nicole: Drink.
[00:03:50] Jolene: game, um,
[00:03:52] nicole: almost, almost every episode we have to bring up Brad, 'cause we love him
[00:03:56] Jolene: has, has influenced some us somehow.
[00:03:58] nicole: Yes. Yes. He's a good [00:04:00] guy.
[00:04:00] Jolene: we say Brad Porteous, you do have to drink so he introduced us to your film and said, "I think this is something that you guys should, should watch." So Nicole and I, when we first met you, we watched it, and we were, you know, we both loved it, the film. it's really inspiring. but what's funny is then I, I've re-watched it, and I, and I watched it the other night with my husband and our youngest daughter, who's 25. and I said, "Listen, I, I wanna watch this again, and I would love to get your guys' take on this as well."
[00:04:30] And so we sat down and watched it, and I kept looking at them to make sure they weren't falling asleep. You know, were they, were they bored? Were they... And they were riveted the entire time. And at the end, uh, and I, they didn't want me to share this with you, but they were both crying at the end because they were so moved.
[00:04:48] And I'm like, okay, this wasn't just me, or this wasn't just something that Nicole and I, you know, as we try to do this work. to our listeners and viewers, please, we... And we'll give you an opportunity to, to find out how to [00:05:00] watch the film. but it's truly something that makes you think gives you hope in, um, in our system, uh, once again.
[00:05:07] And so number one, thank you for doing it. but number two, talk about the film a- as much as you can, because we don't wanna give it away. I mean, obviously, we don't want, we want everyone to watch it. so tell us about the film.
[00:05:19] Adam Cronkright: you know, one of the things that we set out to do, back in, in 2019, I had canvassed across the country in 10 different states. I had talked with close to 400 folks, uh, in New Hampshire, in New Orleans, in Arizona, in Tennessee, in different places to get a sense of how people, um, feel about politics and how people feel about, this type of vision, uh, of replacing politicians with, with regular people. And so we wanted to bring this to life for people because, uh, you know, people need to see it and, and decide for themselves, hey, is, is this the way that it should work? Uh, who should, who should make the decisions? Should, should those just be the purview of professionals, you know, a la politicians? or should they [00:06:00] be our decisions to make as people? it's hard thing for people to imagine these days, at least, uh, the way things have gotten. And so we, we wanted to bring that to life for people and so we envisioned doing something like this, uh, and then COVID hit, and usually this type of thing is done in person, right? So, um, we were gonna do it in person and, and we were gonna, um, hire some filmmakers to do a movie about it and, and bring it into people's, um, living rooms. COVID hit and we thought, oh my God, well, we're not gonna be able to get people together in the same space right now. Everything's locked down and everything. but we thought, well, we, we'll, we'll do, um, this type of process and we'll get our feet wet, and then after, after this COVID thing blows over, then we'll get everybody together, and then we'll make a movie about it, right? Um COVID didn't blow over very fast, and it was a last-minute decision, too, to, you know, um, hey, let's at least send out some good cameras just in case, you know. and then when the footage started to come in and we see what was going on and what was happening, it was clear that there was a bigger story here to [00:07:00] tell. And so then we set out to, to learn how to, how to, how to tell that story and to do that justice. that's kind of how we, how we fell into doing this, this film.
[00:07:08] nicole: viewers, probably most
[00:07:16] of them have never heard of this. And as you said, this has been happening since like ancient Greek times, correct?
[00:07:23] Adam Cronkright: a democratic lottery, so it's just a tool. Uh, I think at, at the heart of it, the question is, is okay, who should decide in, in a, a democracy, in a free society, in a society where people govern ourselves, okay, who should make the decisions? Is it people, um, or is it, uh, politicians, uh, uh, a chosen class, right? so with elections, you tend to get a political class, and that's something that's been known for millennia. And lotteries are a way select ordinary people and bring them together without campaigns, without the [00:08:00] influence that goes into all those types of things, without parties. Um, and so you're just calling on, regular citizens, and they come together as a group and they basically form a, a cross-section of a community or of a state or of a country. Um, and so it's kind of as if we could all get together under one room,
[00:08:18] nicole: Угу
[00:08:19] Adam Cronkright: it out as a community.
[00:08:20] Um, but we can't do that anymore because our populations are so large and there's so many decisions need to get made. Um, and so lotteries are a way to bring together citizens as representatives of the larger community and have them make decisions on our behalf, um, and to do it in a way that's fair and in a way that's not able to be influenced by one side or the other or those types of things. what the movie is, is it is a, a glimpse of, of what that might look like. And so, uh, it's a true story of 30 regular people who were called upon in a lottery, uh, in 2020 [00:09:00] what was arguably the most divided state, uh, in 2020 on the COVID lockdowns, which was Michigan. And these 30 regular people, uh, from all walks of life, from all across the state, had to come together and try to make decisions together about how to respond to the pandemic.
[00:09:17] nicole: And how did you pick these people? How did that... Like, technically, how did that work?
[00:09:23] Adam Cronkright: typically when you do a democratic lottery, it, it works in about three rounds, right? So you have first an initial, um, randomized mail-out to 10,000 households is what
[00:09:34] nicole: OK
[00:09:35] Adam Cronkright: Um, and so there was 10,000 households across Michigan, um, and you make sure that it's pretty representative of the different demographics and, and, and geography of Michigan. so folks are called on to serve, um, and they can opt out, but, uh, they, they get a letter in the mail, um, and they're called on to be a, a citizen representative. then from those who respond and say, "Okay, I'm, I'm, I'm willing to serve," [00:10:00] there's then a second round of the process that uses, uh, a, a lottery process that forms, um...
[00:10:07] Basically, in our case, it's 1,000 different possible panels of 30. and each of those panels, uh, is basically a cross-section of Michigan and have different combinations of people from the pool. And then the third round, which is what you see in the movie, um, is basically a Powerball drawing to figure out, okay, which of those 1,000 groups of 30 is going to be the group that serves together the representatives on behalf of, of, you know, the millions of, of people in Michigan.
[00:10:34] Jolene: Group 119, they were the winners.
[00:10:36] Adam Cronkright: You remember, yes.
[00:10:37] Jolene: I do,
[00:10:38] Adam Cronkright: Spoi- spoiler alert. Spoiler alert.
[00:10:40] Jolene: No, sorry, sorry. Oh,
[00:10:43] Adam Cronkright: the number matters. Not that the number...
[00:10:47] Jolene: Okay. Did it end up being what you expected it to be, or were you surpr- what, like, what surprised you during this process, Adam?
[00:10:55] Adam Cronkright: uh, there were things about it that surprised me. There were things about it that, that didn't, you know, this is not a [00:11:00] movie, I think as you guys know, that it's just like, oh, you know, kumbaya and, and, and rose-tinted glasses about this.
[00:11:06] Uh, and so it's, it's a very real picture, um, of, of what this might look like. And, uh, so some of the things that are very difficult didn't surprise me, um, because this is a really charged issue. Uh,
[00:11:19] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:19] Adam Cronkright: was a really charged issue. Um, and the idea is for people to actually get into it and, uh, the ways in which people engaged with each other, the fact that people came and deeply disagreed but did so in good faith, which is not something that we see anymore really
[00:11:35] nicole: Yeah, yeah
[00:11:36] Adam Cronkright: that didn't surprise me.
[00:11:38] Um, and that is, you know, that connects back to, to your question about the lottery. Um, they didn't owe anything to any party. I mean, they were just called on, uh, and they're there being a citizen trying to think about what's gonna be best for their communities and for their state,
[00:11:53] and they're not angling for re-election. Um, and they're not trying to, you know, uh, [00:12:00] score some political points they can reuse on social media to raise campaign
[00:12:03] nicole: Угу, угу
[00:12:06] Adam Cronkright: good faith disagreement has kind of disappeared from politics, and it's become, uh, a real performance.
[00:12:13] nicole: Угу
[00:12:15] Adam Cronkright: didn't surprise me.
[00:12:16] Uh, and I think that that's something that is often, compelling for people to see on, on screen
[00:12:21] nicole: Угу
[00:12:23] Adam Cronkright: is what it, you know, could look like." In terms of what has surprised me, So I, I think that particularly on the how it played out, um, how, how open people were on camera, um, the types of footage that c- that, that we ended up capturing, I think that all of that really surprised us. Um, like I said, we were not thinking that we would be able to make out of this.
[00:12:49] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:49] Adam Cronkright: and so, and part of that I think was also the fact that people's cameras were also their webcams. And, and so people just got so used to it 'cause, okay, you're on [00:13:00] these calls and everything, and, and so then the camera kinds of fades away, and people are just being themselves. And, uh, and so that was, that was one of the things that was the most surprising to us and exciting for us when it came to, um, you know, te- telling their story
[00:13:15] nicole: Yeah. I mean, I remember having other conversations with you and talking about that I think you had added the video diaries as you were making them. Is that fair to say? That, and those, I thought that was a real gift to the audience, um, to be a... And honestly, and I think I said this to you before, Adam, to the participants, to be able to process what they were going through in a very intimate way.
[00:13:46] it allows this intimate humanity to, uh, emanate through the screen. it doesn't matter what they believe. You're just like, "I'm connecting with this human." the [00:14:00] storytelling that you are telling, Adam, is really beautiful, and it's also Jolene are like, "But how do we do this?"
[00:14:07] Like, how do we... Like, that's sort of the end of the film is like, "Okay, how do we make this work?" Like, how, how do, like the granular, because I feel like people seeing the movie, no matter what side of the aisle they're on, will be like, "Well, yeah, how do we do this?"
[00:14:25] Adam Cronkright: You know, I think deep down, most, most Americans are to be proven wrong about the worst opinions they have or, or fears they have about their political others. and then there's also this question of like, you know, um, how we see ourselves as citizens.
[00:14:41] Um, and we have for so long been relegated to being spectators, in a political system that we're, we're told is democracy, and yet it feels a lot more like American Idol, um, than... I mean, your
[00:14:54] nicole: I never thought about that
[00:14:56] Adam Cronkright: you know, while, while, while these, you know, performers, uh,[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] nicole: compete to try and win power and
[00:15:02] Adam Cronkright: it's a very deeply American movie, uh, and it's not or conservative.
[00:15:08] nicole: the question of where we go from there,
[00:15:11] Adam Cronkright: a lot of folks can-- would be really surprised with what can be achieved when, uh, enough Americans, enough of us in this country want a change and want it enough.
[00:15:20] Um, and especially as, uh, I think we, we all sense wherever you are on the pl- political spectrum that things are getting more and more turbulent and, and, and, and that tends to present opportunities, uh, for change that, that people didn't think were possible. Um, but that can go in a lot of different directions and, and I, and I feel like if there's not, um, a truly hopeful vision for where to go in this country, then, uh, then I, you know, I don't have a lot of hope for, for, for where things will head.
[00:15:47] Um, you know, the, the, the current setup doesn't seem very sustainable. Uh, it's lost and it continues to lose more and more legitimacy,
[00:15:53] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:55] Adam Cronkright: across the board, I, I just mean, uh, this political system, uh, [00:16:00] broadly. there are ways to bring about these changes, but I think the, the, the, the first step is, um, us as Americans deciding, "Well, what do we want?" And so, um, for us in, in making this movie, uh, it's, it's really to give people a glimpse, um, so that
[00:16:18] nicole: so they can see it for themselves and they can decide it for themselves
[00:16:20] Adam Cronkright: who do you think should be making these types of decisions? Um, and should this be, you know, something that's left to, professionals who compete for the job?
[00:16:29] Um, or should this be something that we, uh, decide as, you know, this, this be something that we do as citizens? Um, and from that of different possibilities open up in terms of how we could restructure things in this country, um, politics and governance and, and our role as citizens. that's the, the question underneath this that each, each person has to answer for themselves
[00:16:51] Jolene: You know, it's so interesting because, we have, um, a friend of, of the podcast, Jove, has reached out to us and said, [00:17:00] "Okay, w- we, l- like y- you guys can keep talking about solutions and, you know, people that are trying to do the right things and, you know, blah, blah, blah, but, is there a solution, um, to this problem that we have in politics right now?
[00:17:15] Is there, is there anything else other than a two-party system? What are all, what, what are the alternatives?" So I'm excited, you know, for Jove particularly to, to see this and, and to say, "Okay, wait a second. I didn't... Number one, I didn't know this existed, and number two, um, w- oh, okay, wait. We, we do have to kinda shift our... We can continue to complain about where we are as Americans and what our society looks like right now from the, from a political perspective that has then trickled down into, you know, our, our society in general. but what, what, what are you gonna do about it?" And I think we are, we are finally, you know, this is, w- this could be an alternative, you know, that people can [00:18:00] at, to at least ex- start to explore anyway.
[00:18:03] Adam Cronkright: yeah, I mean, that's, that's what's being offered and put on the table.
[00:18:07] Um, that's what people can see a small glimpse of in this movie. just a raw, real glimpse of is, uh, a vision for, for, for governance in this country where we wouldn't have politicians, uh, we wouldn't have parties, we wouldn't have campaigns, we wouldn't have elections. Um, and we would fill places like Congress or state legislatures with regular citizens selected by lottery, for limited terms, um, and you would serve together with others in a cross-section of, of the country, of, of the state, if it's a state house, um, and be supported in that service with, with staff, with legislative lawyers, with salary, the same supports that we give politicians, um, when they get elected. Um, your job would be put on hold, uh, while you're, while you're serving, the way that we do with jury duty, the way we do with people in, in the reserves. Um, [00:19:00] when you finish your term, you go back to your life. You go back to whether you're a teacher or a trucker or, or a doctor or, um, you know, waiting tables.
[00:19:10] Like, you go back to your lives, and you live with consequences of the decisions that you were a part of, just like everybody else. Um, and so the, the idea is that we would, um, take turns governing and making the decisions a-as citizens. Um, and then when it comes to the, to the executive branch, you know, you need people to run things, and you need people to be able to make decisions in times of crisis and those types of things. Um, there again, uh, and, and you, and you wouldn't use a lottery for that, to be very clear. Um, but there again, you wouldn't use an election. Uh, and we see the types of, um, how divisive that whole fight over the White House has become. Uh, and so there are proposals to have commissions of citizens that are representative of our country be selected by [00:20:00] lottery, uh, to go deep into a hiring process and hire executives, um, you know, the best leaders across this country, uh, the way that a board hires a CEO in a well-run organization, right?
[00:20:12] And, and review their work and fire them if necessary, if they're not, um, you know, executing the will of the people. Um, and so that is the type of alternative that is on offer, um, and that's what people are increasingly, um, uh, talking about and trying to work towards. Um, and this movie gives people a, a small glimpse of basic premise, right?
[00:20:37] Of regular people being called on to serve in a lottery, no elections, to come together, um, from all walks of life, uh, go deep on an issue, call on the testimony of experts, um, and, uh, you know, and, and, and, and others related to an issue, and try to make decisions together. Um, and those decisions might be, uh, the laws that we live by or [00:21:00] who should execute i-in the executive branch. Does that paint a, a picture for you?
[00:21:06] Jolene: and I'm glad you said
[00:21:07] nicole: Yeah
[00:21:08] Jolene: it is very similar, right? To that concept of you get 12 people of your peers who don't actually know about whatever this person is being tried for. Um, but you depend on expert witnesses and a judge, and I mean, so it is.
[00:21:27] It's, it's, it's your peers deciding, um, the outcome of this, of this lawsuit. so it is. It's, uh, I think it's really interesting and it's, and it's, um, and it's, it's very similar to like that jury selection.
[00:21:42] nicole: I was gonna say, Jolene, though, that the jury duty thing, at least here in New York City, when you get that card, you're like, "Ugh, I don't wanna go." And what's so moving about this film is that these people chose... They were like, "I'm curious [00:22:00] about this idea." And it w- what struck me throughout the film was this sense of every person was like, "I am here to do a good job.
[00:22:10] I am here to serve my community. I..." And that was really moving. It was like there was a personal responsibility that I was really touched by, um, that I don't see often anymore, and that was really inspiring to see as well. it's such an overhaul in thinking, and I know that there's incredibly powerful people that are gonna say, "Right, I-- this'll never work," or they don't want it to work 'cause they wanna keep their power.
[00:22:40] I guess my thought is, 'cause it seemed like it could work, like even to start, like beautifully at a, at a local level to like adopt it that way to then move it big. I mean, it sounds amazing, but it also seems like you're gonna get [00:23:00] pushback from people that are like, "That's not how the country was founded," and blah, blah, blah, cause they, they're afraid of change.
[00:23:08] It's a big change, what you're asking or suggesting or offering
[00:23:14] Adam Cronkright: I think that, you know, in having, like I mentioned, I've, I've talked with folks across the country, engaged with them on this, um, and then now with the movie out and stuff, I, I think that it's less a resistance from folks
[00:23:27] nicole: OK
[00:23:28] Adam Cronkright: it's a big change or, or, you know, I think a, a lot of the folks-- There are some folks who are hung up on, like, nothing can change in the Constitution ever, you know,
[00:23:37] nicole: Right.
[00:23:38] Adam Cronkright: you know, uh, because, uh, because it's completely sacred and, and, and beyond us kind of carrying forward the work of the founders. But I think a lot of people also recognize that, like, the politics that we have, this professional class ruling over us and making all the decisions and us just watching on TV, that isn't at all the, the ideals that the country was founded
[00:23:59] nicole: Right
[00:23:59] Adam Cronkright: the [00:24:00] vision of, you know, yeoman farmers coming and, and, and taking, you know, a, a turn in government.
[00:24:05] And, um, and so I think a lot of people can sense that, that we have shifted drastically away from things. Um, we don't good about what we see on the TV
[00:24:15] nicole: when we turn on
[00:24:16] Adam Cronkright: uh, the news, let alone when it turns to politics. Um, but I do think that there is, uh, obviously some, some real fatalism about like, okay, but politicians will never go for this.
[00:24:27] And I think that's, that's, that's the group in particular, um, who is going to nay say this idea, and not across the board. There are politicians, uh, who, uh, have seen enough of how things work. Uh, they're usually former politicians who've seen enough and they say,
[00:24:41] nicole: Right.
[00:24:41] Adam Cronkright: "Yeah, we should just get rid of all of that." you know, but on a-- as, as a whole, you know, the, the, the foxes are in charge of the henhouse. Um, but there are ways to make these types of changes when enough people in the country want them, even with, you know, politicians. Um, you know, this would probably be the one thing that [00:25:00] Democrats and Republicans would, would really agree on these days.
[00:25:02] It would be, uh, like, them staying in charge. Um, so there, there are ways to make these changes. Um, and I think that part of it also, you know, there's folks working at the local levels and at the state level, starting to work at that level. But, but, uh, right now, hardly anyone has ever heard of this. Uh, it is a, it is a true shift in how to think about, what, what does government by the people really look like or mean?
[00:25:25] Um, what does representation mean? Um, you know, what does accountability mean? 'Cause I don't think we can really-- I don't personally think we can ever get it from politicians by this idea that like, "Well, we'll vote them out." and what does accountability mean when like, "Oh, oh, they're just like me and they'll go back to living next to me, and they're gonna have to live with these decisions themselves." so I think that there's, there's a lot there that opens up, um, and there are difficult questions on, on how to make these changes. Um, but there's-- I have not found a lot of people who are, uh, particularly, uh, concerned about losing the system that we have and doing away with that. Um, to your [00:26:00] jury point, um, there, there's another thing there which is that, uh, yes, most people have a negative view of jury service most people have never actually served on a jury.
[00:26:09] nicole: Right
[00:26:10] Adam Cronkright: unfortunately, they get called down to the courthouse, and then they get, you know, after several hours, they get sent home, just a big hassle. Um, but the vast majority of people who actually serve on juries, overwhelmingly rate it as a positive experience. Um, and, uh, you know, because, because we have so little opportunity to come together with people we would never interact with but who are part of our community,
[00:26:34] and, to also do something where you feel like you're now an important person in the community, y- you know, and, and you are doing something to help.
[00:26:41] And, and in those cases, like Jolene, like you said, you know, whether it's deciding a civil suit or even matters of life and death, we say, "Okay, well, these 12 people
[00:26:49] nicole: Right
[00:26:50] Adam Cronkright: on behalf of the community." you know, I'll just point out, too, you know, there's the divisive side of elections and campaigns and politicians, um, but there's also, you know, [00:27:00] this, the, the side of, of corruption and, um, and not feeling represented, not feeling like our interests are really... Uh, th- we're not being looked out for, uh, as everyday folks. and I think the jury parallels is, is informative there, too, um, because, uh, it's a lot harder to corrupt a jury than a judge, uh, especially an elected judge, you know, who's up for re-election,
[00:27:21] nicole: Wow
[00:27:22] Adam Cronkright: and so there's just, I, I think that there's really important possibilities that open up we decide as a people that, uh, that regular, us regular people should be making these types of decisions instead of professionals.
[00:27:34] Jolene: You know, I heard you say in an interview, because one of... my first thought was, okay, what if you get a crazy person, you know, uh, you know, in this, in this committee, and they've got... You know, they're the, the fringe people, you know, alt left or, or, you know, deep left or, or right. and
[00:27:54] nicole: like, "Go the other way too, Joe. Go the other way too."
[00:27:57] Jolene: we all know where the weirdos are [00:28:00] on both sides. your comment was, a lot of times those people just want to be heard, and so they go to the extremes so that they can be heard. And, and your point was, When you sit down at a table and you let someone talk, and you listen to them, and you, and you hear what they have to say, pretty soon they're not on the fringe anymore.
[00:28:23] They're, they're, they're really reasonable, and they can come to an agreement. that the experience that you've had, or how did you come up with that?
[00:28:30] Adam Cronkright: That's definitely the experience that I've had. Um, it's the experience that I've had, kind of these types of processes, like, like, like one we'll see in the, uh, like, like we did in the movie. Um, those types of processes across the board, whether it's, you know, uh, far left views or far right views or, or just very uncommon views. really important that people feel like they are taken-- they're listened to and taken seriously and engaged with about their views and not just written off. But also I, I found that just in my own personal life, engaging with people who, [00:29:00] you know, maybe I, I really don't understand where they're coming from.
[00:29:02] Uh, and there's a, you know, you can just write them off, or you can, you can try to understand better. I think the, the other part of it, I remember, I remember, uh, hearing someone who, who watched the movie, and the one thing that they felt, uh, wasn't realistic was that there wasn't bunch of people with extreme views on the, on the, on the panel in, in Michigan. Um, and that she said, you know, "I know this country, and it's just filled with a bunch of crazies." And, and, and, and in fact, like most people actually don't have extreme views. That's something that, uh, ends up dominating our
[00:29:42] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:43] Adam Cronkright: our politics, uh, because of the way our politics is set up, and then it gets amplified by social media, obviously.
[00:29:48] But, you know, that's what wins, uh, in, in this political game, uh, i- is attacking the other side, taking an even more, um, radical stance, [00:30:00] uh, against the other side. Um, and, uh, and that all falls away when
[00:30:06] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:30:06] Adam Cronkright: you take, you take the, the glorified popularity contest, the competition out of getting there. And, uh, and people have... They gotta make some decisions, uh, and they're important decisions, and they gotta think about their community.
[00:30:19] Jolene: tell everybody how do they get to see the movie? How, um, what's the best way to, to get to be a part of this or to, to learn more about your work?
[00:30:27] Adam Cronkright: Yeah, so m- the movie is free, um, and you can find it, you, people can watch it. They go to goodbyepoliticians.movie. they can decide for themselves kind of h- how they, how they feel about this, and then, then they can learn more about this, you know, some of the bigger possibilities, um, that it opens up,
[00:30:43] nicole: Adam, do you have a good for the soul to share with our audience?
[00:30:50] Adam Cronkright: I, is it,
[00:30:52] nicole: Oh.
[00:30:57] Adam Cronkright: another, podcast?
[00:30:59] Jolene: no, not
[00:30:59] nicole: [00:31:00] Oh,
[00:31:00] Adam Cronkright: it's
[00:31:00] nicole: no.
[00:31:00] Adam Cronkright: it's
[00:31:00] nicole: Listen, there's enough.
[00:31:03] Adam Cronkright: compete
[00:31:03] nicole: Listen
[00:31:04] Jolene: Oh,
[00:31:05] Adam Cronkright: Right? It's, it's, it's, it's short. I think for me it's, it's pound for pound
[00:31:11] nicole: All right.
[00:31:12] Adam Cronkright: most good for the soul podcast that
[00:31:13] nicole: Okay.
[00:31:14] Adam Cronkright: Um, and it's, uh, My Unsung Hero.
[00:31:18] nicole: Okay.
[00:31:19] Adam Cronkright: They are, they're short, mm, like three to five-minute, uh, stories.
[00:31:23] and true stories of people recounting, um, times in which a stranger basically, uh, stepped in, and there's a lot of, a lot of, uh, grace that comes up in those stories, and, uh, and I tend
[00:31:35] nicole: Oh, I love that.
[00:31:36] Adam Cronkright: tend to tear up a little bit.
[00:31:37] Yeah.
[00:31:37] Jolene: awesome
[00:31:37] nicole: All right. I like this. It's gonna, it's gonna go on, on my cue,
[00:31:42] Jolene: Yeah. All right
[00:31:44] Adam Cronkright: Right on.
[00:31:44] nicole: All right, listen. It's time for would you rather, and Jolene is gonna hit you, and then you can hit us back.
[00:31:56] Jolene: would you rather convince one [00:32:00] incredibly influential politician that the idea of a political democracy, uh, a lottery work, or 1,000 ordinary citizens?
[00:32:13] Adam Cronkright: Come on, that's pretty easy for me. A thousand ordinary citizens day of the week and twice on Sunday. Um
[00:32:21] Jolene: Okay, but, but you said earlier, you said you're never gonna get politicians to go for this because obviously this is, I mean, this is goes against they're gonna find a new job. So, but what if there was one, like if there was a AOC or a Trump or a, you
[00:32:38] nicole: That you convinced
[00:32:40] Jolene: That you could convince. You still don't want them?
[00:32:42] Adam Cronkright: So
[00:32:43] nicole: Do you know he talked about his politicians? He's not into them
[00:32:46] Adam Cronkright: couple of things. So, uh, uh, to be clear, I'll state on the record, I, I don't think that all politicians are bad people. Um, I, I know some people go into politics with good intentions.
[00:32:57] nicole: wanted to be one, in fact.
[00:32:59] Adam Cronkright: to [00:33:00] be one,
[00:33:00] nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
[00:33:02] Adam Cronkright: that being said, um, personally, I, I feel like as a rule, because of the way that the game is played, um, I don't feel like I can trust politicians, period.
[00:33:13] Like any politician. Uh, I think that that's very difficult for me, um, because I know the types of, um, the, the game that they have to play and the rules that they have to play by. Um, and, uh, I would be quite, uh, skeptical of, of how that might play out in terms of a politician wanting to champion this and like, why are they wanting to champion this?
[00:33:36] Um, and where will that end up?
[00:33:38] and I think that the title of our movie is pretty clear, um, on waving goodbye to all, uh, politicians. and also for me personally, um, you know, um, I made the movie for the thousand regular people that you, that you mentioned there. Um, for, for us to get to see ourselves in this role, and, and everybody to [00:34:00] decide, okay, what do we think about that?
[00:34:03] Um, and what do we wanna do?
[00:34:07] Jolene: Love it.
[00:34:07] nicole: Love it too
[00:34:08] Jolene: answer. Okay.
[00:34:10] Adam Cronkright: I passed? Okay. Okay. Okay. I do have a would, would you rather. Um, So would you rather bring back, like revive in, in a, in a big way the kind of the, the Elks lodges, the bowling clubs, you know, the church supper, you know, like revive that side of American life, or the mom-and-pop shops and the family farms?
[00:34:38] nicole: Mom-and-pop shops and family farms. Not even like... 'cause first of all, Elks clubs, all the things, they're mostly men's clubs, so Jolene and I aren't invited. And we were just talking about, I was just in the Ozarks visiting my friend Jolene, and we were talking about farms and farming and what's going on in farming [00:35:00] and the Monsantos, the corruption of farming
[00:35:04] Jolene: Mm. A big--
[00:35:05] nicole: big farm. Thank you. Thank you for helping me. Um, and what, what, how do we get back to the family farm and the mom-and-pop shop? Because that to me is like your movie, which it's about care. There is an investment, and that's like it matters to that person to have a shop that they...
[00:35:28] And they, and those places, at least the shops, can bring community into. That's my answer. Sorry, Jolene.
[00:35:36] Jolene: agree with you, but, and I want, I want the other ones too. Because, and here's why I say this, because I do live in Missouri, and my husband belongs to the Knights of Columbus, and, know, we, uh, I had a, a Bunco club when my kids were younger and, and it was this dice game that we would get together once a month in somebody else's [00:36:00] house, and we would end up just drinking instead of actually playing the game.
[00:36:03] But, but it was a way... But, but it was community, right? And, and we, and we go to church, and there's, like, you know, small groups at church. And that, those communities I just think are so important. Again, I... If m- if, if more people had groups that they could belong to, um, with a common, with a common goal or, you know, some common values, um, that they have together, might stop all the vitriol on social media where people ha- you know, get behind a screen and start typing things because that's the only community that they feel like they have. So can, can I take the... If my friend Nicole is taking the family farms and
[00:36:44] nicole: So we're both getting it. Adam, what do you think?
[00:36:47] Adam Cronkright: You guys are covering your bases. That's a, that's
[00:36:49] Jolene: yeah, Yeah.
[00:36:49] Adam Cronkright: good job. Teamwork,
[00:36:51] nicole: Yes. Yes.
[00:36:53] Jolene: what we
[00:36:53] nicole: That's what we do.
[00:36:54] Jolene: We We, collaborate
[00:36:57] nicole: Adam, what do you think? How would you answer that?
[00:36:59] Adam Cronkright: [00:37:00] I mean, obviously I would like to take both,
[00:37:02] nicole: Yeah,
[00:37:02] Adam Cronkright: But, know, some of us are gonna actually follow the rules of the game here on this show. Um, and so just gonna say,
[00:37:12] Jolene: Ouch. Okay
[00:37:14] Adam Cronkright: I thought, you know,
[00:37:15] nicole: Adam, you are welcome on the show any time you want.
[00:37:18] Jolene: Sassy Pants. Sure
[00:37:21] Adam Cronkright: um, it's, it's get- I'm getting hangry probably. It's, it's, you know, 6:00.
[00:37:26] nicole: I know, I know. We'll wrap it up
[00:37:27] Adam Cronkright: uh, I think that what... think I would have to go with the mom-and-pop shops and the family farms, mostly just because of how devastating that's been
[00:37:37] nicole: I know
[00:37:37] Adam Cronkright: to communities even being able to, like, remain a community.
[00:37:43] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:43] Adam Cronkright: people having to leave places and, um, and so, like, yeah, I just think that that's, been really, really hard, and it's completely sha- changed the shape and, a- a- and the, the feel of America.
[00:37:56] nicole: Ja.
[00:37:57] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:37:57] nicole: Ja,
[00:37:58] Jolene: completely agree. [00:38:00] Well, thank you, Adam. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you for your film. Thank you for being a guest. Thank you for playing our silly little games with us and in here like a bull in a china shop. Um, no, it's been
[00:38:14] nicole: It's,
[00:38:14] it's been re- it's-- yes. And we're just so thrilled to be able to share this film, and hopefully everybody will love it as much as we do, and we can start changing things together.
[00:38:25] Adam Cronkright: Oh.
[00:38:26] nicole: you for making this happen
[00:38:27] Adam Cronkright: Well, thank you to both of you. Uh, uh, wonderful to be a part of this, um, and, uh, wonderful to know you both, and we're gonna continue to... I hope I get invited back on the show at some
[00:38:38] nicole: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely
[00:38:41] Adam Cronkright: and yeah. So been a pleasure
[00:38:43] nicole: Thank you. All right, everybody.
[00:38:45] Jolene: us
[00:38:46] nicole: Thumbs up. Do all the things. Bye
[00:38:49] Jolene: Bye bye
[00:38:50]
