How to Talk to “The Enemy” with Larry Rosen
Politics can feel like a loyalty test now. Like you are either on the right team, or you are a threat.
That is why talking with Larry Rosen felt so grounding. Larry is an attorney turned mediator, and he is the host of The Enemies Project, a YouTube docuseries where he brings together people who see each other as enemies and helps them find the humanity underneath the issue.
What Larry has discovered, over and over, is that conflict is rarely just about the issue on the surface. People are usually protecting something. A family. A community. A belief that kept them safe once. A story about who the “good guys” are. When you do not understand the “why” underneath someone’s position, you fill the gap with the worst possible explanation. You assume the other person is cruel on purpose. You mistake effect for intention. The hurt is real, but the story we tell ourselves about why it happened is often wrong, and that story becomes the fuel for everything that follows.
That is basically the engine of The Enemies Project. Larry brings in two people who represent a deep social conflict and lets the tension show up properly. It’s not the polite version where everyone performs being reasonable, but the honest version where people say the thing they are not supposed to say out loud. Because when people suppress the conflict, they do not actually move. They just leave with their talking points intact.
Then he does the part that feels almost impossible in our current culture. He takes them away from the issue and builds rapport first. His belief is simple: you cannot have politics without rapport. Without safety, the nervous system goes into threat mode and the goal becomes defeating the other person, not understanding them. In threat mode, you are not even trying to learn. You are trying to win.
In safe mode, something else becomes possible. Larry’s method is extreme perspective taking. He helps each person explain what is deeply important to them, who they are trying to protect, what shaped them, what scares them, and what they wish the other side understood. He has a phrase for it that stuck with us: politics grows out of the soil of the person. When you see the soil, the politics stops feeling like a random set of evil opinions and starts looking like a human response to a life.
And then he pushes it further. He has them switch sides. He calls it identity confusion and they do it for long enough to feel how the other person’s worldview makes sense from the inside. It does not magically create agreement, but it often creates something that is rarer right now: respect. Sometimes even admiration. Once you have inhabited someone’s logic, it is harder to keep them as a cartoon.
We asked the uncomfortable question people always ask when they see this kind of work. Are you legitimizing dangerous views by giving them airtime? Are you platforming the oppressor? How do you protect the person in the room who has been harmed by the other side?
Larry did not pretend the work was risk-free. He talked about the reality that participants can get attacked by their own side for even showing up, and he acknowledged that sometimes the impact lands later, after the cameras are off. But he kept coming back to effectiveness. If you want to change society, you do not convince the other side by rebuking them into silence. You might rally your own side into a war, and if you can win it, you can get things done. But in a country where the other side is not going away, the swings keep coming. You think you won, and then they come back for you.
His point was that ignoring people confirms their worst fears. It feeds the enemy-making machine. And he named the enemy makers directly: political and media figures who profit from division by constantly insinuating that the other side is evil, selfish, corrupt, and a threat. Normal disagreement becomes a moral war, and once you are in a moral war, curiosity feels like betrayal.
This is where Larry reframed the whole “bridging” world for us. He thinks a lot of it is aimed at the choir, people who already want to talk. Most people are not interested in wonky terms like depolarization. They are interested in healing. They want healthy relationships. They want to be listened to. They want to feel like they belong.
So his theory of change is the media. He called it experience multiplication. You cannot get millions of people to sit down and do what he does in a room. They will not. But you can multiply the experience by however many people watch. You can show people a different way to be, and let them feel the difference in their own body.
He also said something we have felt in our own work. People say they want healing, but they are drawn to conflict. So the formula has to include conflict that leads somewhere. Not conflict for sport. Conflict that ends in something recognisably human.
Because underneath all the politics, that is what we are missing. Not agreement. Not perfect policies. Just the ability to see each other as people, to feel safe enough to be curious, and to remember that most of us are trying to protect someone we love.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
https://www.enemiesproject.org/
Larry's Good for the Soul:
https://youtube.com/shorts/aFuuyibkx1Q?si=MhVJvWhH5SMGPDdb
LINKS:
On Instagram https://www.instagram.com/wevegottotalk/
On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@WeveGotToTalk
On Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/weve-got-to-talk/id1797423701
On Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0qJVgTvjciUffRmoUienx2
How to find Nicole https://nicolefonarow.com/
How to find Jolene https://dibledough.com/
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[00:00:00] nicole: She's conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money, and we say that's exactly what friends should be talking about. us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud. to We've Got to Talk. Welcome Larry Rosen.
[00:00:25] Jolene: Larry Rosen is an attorney, a peacemaker, a writer, a mediator, and host of The Enemies Project. The Enemies Project, a popular YouTube docuseries, brings together enemies so that they may find the humanity in each other. After going live in the summer of 2025, its content has been viewed tens of millions of times and has garnered over 250,000 subscribers across all of its platforms. a mediator, Larry has successfully helped thousands navigate debilitating legal conflicts sourced in broken personal relationships. Holy cow, [00:01:00] Larry, we're so glad youa're here.
[00:01:02] larry: Well, well thank you. And, and I, I just have to say that your intros, um, uh, particularly Nicole, it sounds like that, that was... You must be an actress.
[00:01:11] nicole: I am an actress. It's what I
[00:01:15] larry: So there was-- sorry to s- jump off on, uh, the, the other-- But Jo-Jo- Can you do that, Jolene? Have you tried m-memorizing?
[00:01:24] Jolene: No.
[00:01:25] larry: It's so hard. It is so hard. Yeah.
[00:01:27] nicole: we are so excited to have you on, and we felt like when we delved into the Enemies Project and all of your background, it was like, oh my gosh, this person is sort of personification of what we're trying to do in sort of an extreme manner.
[00:01:44] And I have to say, Larry, I, I watched a ton of your episodes, and I am s- I was so moved, and, also just hopeful. Um, why don't we start [00:02:00] from the very beginning? Because there's gonna be a lot of listeners and viewers that aren't familiar with your work. So don't you tell us, uh, where you're from, where you started, and then how the Enemies Project came to be
[00:02:14] larry: Well, our studio is in Oakland, California. Um, and I'm from New York originally. Um, but I've been out here a long, long time. I came out to California for college and was like, "I like those mountains." I, I'd never really-- I'm from Long Island, so I had never really seen them. I was like, "What is this outdoors thing?"
[00:02:35] And, and I really loved it, so I stayed. and the next question was why The Enemies Project or wh-
[00:02:42] nicole: you start as a lawyer, correct? You went to
[00:02:44] larry: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
[00:02:47] nicole: here,
[00:02:47] larry: Okay.
[00:02:48] nicole: we wanna know you, my friend. So you started as a lawyer
[00:02:51] larry: I started as a lawyer and, um, like a lot of lawyers, uh, I didn't love it. I didn't-- It just didn't feel... [00:03:00] I mean, many do, you know? The, the, the pe- the ones who do, I, I have a lot of envy for.
[00:03:05] But for me, it just didn't feel important. And, and I recognized that I, I have a hard time doing anything that I don't have a lot of motivation for. I did re-- well in law school 'cause I had motivation because it was for me, I think. You know, I look back and I really enjoyed law school, but as soon as I got into practicing law, it was like throwing, literally throwing pencils at the ceiling.
[00:03:26] And, a-and, and so I left the practice of law, started a startup, uh, raised some venture capital money. It didn't succeed, and a friend of mine said, " Why don't you try mediation? That seems like it'd be up your alley." And I thought, "There's no way I wanna do that. That sounds so boring." Like
[00:03:43] Jolene: Hmm. Yeah
[00:03:44] larry: like why would I wanna jump in people's conflicts?
[00:03:46] Like, that sounds like the worst world of all. And what I found was, I went to a training, didn't actually love it, and then went to another one that I really liked. And what I found was I just started practicing. Like I di- I didn't really have much of a certification or experience [00:04:00] and, and many people w- um, in the law at least tell you you have to practice law for 20 years, be a judge maybe before you mediate.
[00:04:07] And I just hel-held hang up a, hung up a shingle, and I promised something a little bit different than most lawyers who mediate, which was that I'm gonna help you heal your relationship in the process. Or at least even if that's not the goal, that's probably what has been broken, and we're gonna at least try to repair that so that you guys don't need me ever again.
[00:04:27] that really connected with people and the type of training that I got actually really helped with that. Um, and most trainings I found were kind of superficial and this was in non-violent communication, um, and this guy Marshall Rosenberg, and I encourage people to take a look at that because it's really powerful even though it's somewhat awkward but it has a beautiful theory of the world which is that we all have the same motivations.
[00:04:50] We all come from the same basic stock. We-- why we do th-things is the same. What we do is different. and that's what's so confusing. It seems people are so [00:05:00] different, but the whys are all the same. And with that basic model I was able to like really help people understand each other.
[00:05:06] Uh, I developed it myself for the practice of law but it was really, really effective because it helped people get to the real baseline of their conflicts. I did that for a long time and occasionally I'd look at, um, I'd be in the mediations and I'd be like, "Does anybody else see this? This is incredible.
[00:05:22] Like what's going on here?" and I thought y- I, maybe a one day I'll, I'll, I'll have people watch. But it, but I wasn't really that interested in the types of mediations that I was doing. It's not that I didn't think they were important. I was meeting people w- in places of their life that were broken which was actually quite powerful to me, but I didn't think it was societally important.
[00:05:43] And when things started to really break down, um, politically, uh, I'd say around two thousand and sixteen Um, I had been writing a book ab-about conflict and, I said to one of my friends, because in the book they actually do something similar to this in the [00:06:00] book that I wrote, and it's a, it's a fictional book about a peacemaker.
[00:06:03] In any case, my friend was like, "Do that thing now. Forget the book. Do that thing."
[00:06:08] actually, this was actually in about 2024 when, when my friends were, were saying that. And I thought, you know, I really, have a theory about why we have conflict, and I'd like to put that into action.
[00:06:18] and our political system is broken. That is where, um, we're going to fail as a species, I believe. Um, and it's something that is extremely important to me because I have kids. And, and maybe if I didn't, I'd, I'd, I'd still do it for kids, you know, because I love kids. I love my kids especially. And I feel like my generation, our generation, not us in particular, but our generation has really failed the next generation, and we've left the world not only with, um, existential threats, but the inability to cooperate to address them.
[00:06:51] Jolene: You know, one of the things that, that we read about you was that, um, your wife, comes from a conservative family from Ohio, [00:07:00] Midwestern girl, and you had this pr- And correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm, I'm putting words in your mouth here. but that y- you came from, um, more of a liberal background, and you, you couldn't understand why people were saying things about these Midwestern people when you knew her and her family, and you're like, "No, that's, that's not who they are."
[00:07:21] I mean, is that ... Is, is there something
[00:07:23] larry: There, there, there-- it, it actually happened from, for my daughter, it happened that way because my daughter grew up in, in a town called Piedmont in California, which is very liberal. I mean, you know, like extremely. and for a while, there was, there were kind of like purity tests about being liberal, um, w- as she was growing up, where she f- she, you know, in retrospect, it seems like there were.
[00:07:46] So she would then be confused when she'd go to Ohio and meet all of her loving family. For me, it was something similar. The people in Ohio who I really, you know, her mother and, and her immediate family and th- they're-- I love [00:08:00] them. They're beautiful people. They don't all... Some of them are liberal, some of them are really conservative, but her extended family, they were some really great people, and they were all, like, on the Trump train, you know, big time.
[00:08:12] Like boats, you know, boat trains, like all this stuff that I'm the, that people out here are like, "What is wrong, what is wrong with those people?" And then they would say, the people in Ohio would say, "I can't believe," 'cause we live like a, um, a couple miles from Berkeley, and they'd be like, " I can't believe you're from Crazy Town.
[00:08:31] Like, you seem so normal." They literal- And they were like, "What is it like to live in a freaking circus and to be oppressed by Gavin Newsom?" And, and I'm like, "I, I,
[00:08:41] nicole: What?
[00:08:41] larry: the same as out here. Like, do you guys go to The Gap and, you know, like the, and go to these particular, you know, these restaurants?" Like, we do the exact same thing.
[00:08:51] We watch the same programs. We watch football. I put you there, and you wouldn't even know the difference. And it just seemed so crazy to me that we have these [00:09:00] perceptions of each other.
[00:09:00] Jolene: Which is so true, and that I think that's how we started, Nicole and I.
[00:09:04] nicole: Mhmm
[00:09:05] Jolene: at, at the University of Iowa and, and here comes this cute little redhead from San Francisco, and I'm like, a small town Iowa girl." And I mean, we couldn't have been any more opposite, but have developed, you know, a, a friendship 40 years ago that has extended to, to now.
[00:09:21] larry: Ja
[00:09:22] Jolene: when, you know, when 2024 election happened and all of her liberal friends were saying to her, " Okay, you're the one that's got a conservative friend. Can you ask her, like, why she voted for Trump?" I mean, you know, that was the... It, it's so... We get so entrenched in, into our own communities that
[00:09:40] larry: Mhmm
[00:09:41] Jolene: see that there's somebody out there.
[00:09:43] And, and I
[00:09:44] larry: Yeah
[00:09:44] Jolene: do such a great job in, in your work breaking those barriers down and trying to figure out where each side is coming from,
[00:09:53] larry: Yeah
[00:09:53] Jolene: um, you know, the, the basis of your work, right?
[00:09:57] larry: Yeah. I mean, it, it is [00:10:00] helping people understand each other because they're mistaken about each other. I mean, that's the, that's the weird thing. Like, almost everyone is mistaken about each other, about the other side, and, and they d- they don't think that that's correct. They think the other side's mistaken about them.
[00:10:14] But they're m- they actually misperceive, you know, people and the... Yeah
[00:10:18] nicole: Well, I was gonna say, Larry, that I watched your TED Talk, and it's not quite the Enemies Project, but I think it, it sort of, is a really good description of, like, conflict isn't always what they seem. You talked about, um, Frank and Sophia and the painting,
[00:10:34] Could you, could you tell our audience a little bit about that story, about
[00:10:38] larry: It's so long ago, and I haven't looked at the te- the, the-- So I'm gonna try to remember it, but,
[00:10:43] nicole: I can
[00:10:44] larry: there, the--
[00:10:44] nicole: me to help you?
[00:10:46] larry: Sure
[00:10:48] nicole: So they're, so they were getting a divorce,
[00:10:52] Sophia's grandmother had a painting, and she, it was dear to her, and the husband took the
[00:10:59] larry: [00:11:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were in deep, deep conflict, you know, and Sophia was shocked that Frank would do that, um, you know, that he would try to hurt her in that way. That was her belief. People's belief is almost always that the other side tries to hurt them, is-- wants to hurt them, rather than that's the acceptable effect.
[00:11:20] It's not the intention. People are, when they're in conflict, always mistake effect for intention. In any case, Sophia, uh, was shocked, and Frank, she believed Frank did this to hurt her because she had had an affair. Frank actually did it for a different reason, which is that he was also an orphan. He was really connected to her family, to the, the, her grandmother who painted it, and that was his family, and so he wanted it also.
[00:11:48] He felt like he was losing his wife and now, um, his connection to family, and so he took it. And, uh, that came out. I knew that he wasn't trying to hurt her, [00:12:00] you know, because I've been through this so many times, and people want something for themselves. Even if you're, you're, you're-- it's acceptable that to you that you hurt somebody, it's almost always, if not always, that you want something for yourself, and that's a by-product.
[00:12:15] And it's an acceptable by-product very often when you're hurt yourself, but it's not the intention
[00:12:20] nicole: So to people that have never seen the YouTube, uh, series, can you tell us what The Enemies Project is
[00:12:26] larry: So I take people who are virtually enemies, they generally don't know each other, but let's say, uh, a Palestinian and a Zionist Jew, um, a white cop and a Black protester who believe the other side is basically corrupt and evil, both sides, um, a woman who believes trans people belong in mental institutions, um, who's wearing a MAGA hat, and a trans woman. and I bring them together individually for a day of conversation. And, um, we go [00:13:00] from deep conflict, which I allow, I encourage, like, "Get it out. Let's see how effective it is for you guys to do the typical thing
[00:13:07] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:13:08] larry: do, which is to yell at each other. Like, how effective is that?" And they conclude after a certain period of time, always, like, "That was really ineffective.
[00:13:18] That's what we do in society." And then we do it, go through something different, which is to get each, to know each other, and to grow politics out of the human being. So politics, from my standpoint, grows out of the soil of the person. We are always trying to protect people we love. That's what we're trying to do with our politics once you get to know the person and understand what's deeply important to them and who's deeply important to them, their politics begin to make sense.
[00:13:52] And so we, we-- I'll help people understand the other person, what is deeply important to them, who's deeply important to them, what their [00:14:00] childhood traumas were, like why they believe this strategy in the world is such a good one, and then we allow the politics to grow out of it, and we see, wow, this makes sense from your standpoint.
[00:14:11] Now I'm really getting it. And it's transformational for them to start to see it that way, and eventually we switch si-- excuse me, switch sides where I call it identity confusion, that they become each other, and they advocate for each other, and they become really confused because they really inhabit each other. and Nicole, being an actress, you probably understand this because you've probably inhabited characters that where you became confused like, "That's not me. Hang on a second." Um, but we're all capable of that, and we're all capable of that because we have the same internal motivations.
[00:14:45] Once we inhabit someone's belief and their history, we can become them really easily. And so they do that, and it's transforming for them. They end usually with extraordinary admiration for the other person
[00:14:58] Jolene: Ja
[00:14:59] larry: and, and [00:15:00] sometimes, you know, deep affection
[00:15:01] Jolene: Okay, so, so it doesn't matter, and we've watched all the, the videos on YouTube, and, and each one of them are fascinating. I mean, the, you've got the, a white male cop and the Black young activist. I mean, y- you've identified some of the other ones. Uh, uh, you, you're, you're truly taking two polar opposites that no one in their right mind would ever think could, could get along, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, almost every single one of them at the end have hugged each other and said, " Wow."
[00:15:33] I mean, so, so you've kinda developed this formula that it, it doesn't matter what the subject is. You've, you can apply the same formula each time,
[00:15:43] larry: Yeah. That's, that's definitely true.
[00:15:46] nicole: And,
[00:15:47] larry: because it's-
[00:15:48] nicole: the formula, Larry?
[00:15:49] larry: It is extreme perspective taking. Bec- you know, we say let's walk in the shoes of another person.
[00:15:55] nicole: Yeah
[00:15:56] larry: enabling people to do that at a very deep level [00:16:00] where they don't actually have to live the other person's life. And that softens us to the other side, and not only that, it corrects our v- our mistaken views of the other side.
[00:16:11] Um, so the, the formula is, you know, we have chapters, but we let them fight
[00:16:17] nicole: because that actually brings out
[00:16:19] larry: out a lot of authenticity. You know, when people suppress the fight, when they're polite to each other, they actually don't make the same level of progress. It's really interesting to me, but that is the case that I've found over time.
[00:16:31] Like, go at it. Like, say all those stupid things that are gonna trigger the other side. They're gonna be shocked when they find out that you're a real person and that you're actually motivated by love, because almost everybody is. They're trying to love someone. And, and so we do that, and then, and the f- and the formula is step away from the issue Totally step away from the issue.
[00:16:55] Let's reset.
[00:16:57] nicole: Let's build rapport you can't
[00:16:59] larry: [00:17:00] have politics without rapport because if you do, people go into this mode where they are protecting without being conscious of protecting what they believe in, and so they try to win. We have two modes in a g- basically in the human mind. One is threat level.
[00:17:18] You're a threat to me, I'm going to defeat you. And it doesn't even matter what the arguments are at that point. We are going to shoot down everything the other person says. We even forget what we're arguing about, and that happens on the show all the time, that people are, like,
[00:17:32] nicole: Right
[00:17:32] larry: about some crazy stuff that they had n- they had no-- They, you know, the people, the Black cop and the, and the white cop and the Black protester are arguing about the inception of slavery.
[00:17:44] And it's like,
[00:17:44] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:17:44] larry: what? What, what are you guys talking about? And they're like, "I don't, I don't know." So, so we have that mode, and then we have the mode like you guys occupy, which is, it's n- you're not a threat to me, let's explore, right? When, [00:18:00] when we feel safe, we explore. We have fun, we learn. It's impossible to learn when you're in that other mode.
[00:18:07] And so I'm shifting their, basically their nervous system by taking them away from the issue and helping them understand each other. And the key piece is that it's not just understanding the other person. When the other person understands you, that's when the shift really happens because we've all experienced that anyone who's interested in us is a good person.
[00:18:31] They're like, they're such-- We, we, we think, "Wow, what a nice person. Honey, did you meet them? They were talking about me the whole time." You know, like, like, th- so that is transforming for them when they, when the other person is really interested in them and really gets them. And then we bring it back to politics, as I said, reintroduce the issue, rapport before politics.
[00:18:54] Now they're going to be in a different way of interacting. They're going to [00:19:00] be essentially curious
[00:19:01] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:02] larry: to solve the puzzle of the other person, and then really complete the shift with identity shift, uh, identity confusion. politics is just a form of relationship,
[00:19:10] nicole: Yeah。
[00:19:11] larry: right?
[00:19:11] This is relationship. We've all been on both sides of this, I know I have, where I'm triggered and I, and I tell you, you know, "I will win even if I lose,"
[00:19:20] Jolene: Ja.
[00:19:21] larry: right? That's, that's not a good way to be. We've all been there, and, and we've all been on the other side, where it's just like, "That is so amazing." And so politics is the same exact thing, but it's scaled up to groups.
[00:19:34] But the same triggers inside of us exist
[00:19:37] Jolene: How do we know that we're coming from a place of understanding? When Nicole and I speak to each other and we're not just being polite. Like, that we are really saying that what we believe, but because we have respect for each other, would we maybe...
[00:19:52] And, and I know you don't know us, so I mean, the, I'm asking you to analyze us. But, you know, is there, is there a scenario in which, [00:20:00] um, she and I, because we're friends, maybe aren't getting deep into a conversation enough out of respect for the other person?
[00:20:08] larry: What is the ideal outcome in terms of conflict? There's a whole range of healthy behaviors from my pers-perspective. We in our country are in the, in the unhealthy range, right? There's, there's no conflict because you're suppressing yourself completely so as to have peace or because you're afraid of the other side.
[00:20:29] Unhealthy. Personal relationships, political relationships. There's conflict such that you believe the other person is evil. You cut them down morally. You cannot listen to them or learn in any respect. Unhealthy. That's where we are now.
[00:20:43] Everything in between, from my perspective, is healthy. Like, there's no right way to be.
[00:20:49] I, I usually don't talk about issues with people. Like, I just like to have fun with them. Like, for me, that's healthy. When we start talking too much about every single thing, um, I I'm [00:21:00] not enjoying it, and it's weird. You know, people learn that because I'm like, "Oh, you're the empathy person." No. Actually, I, I...
[00:21:08] nicole: a human.
[00:21:08] larry: Yeah, I, I... And that part, that is okay for me to solve issues, but I don't wanna live there all the time. And there's-- but there are some people who do, and I think that's an entirely okay range. So with the two of you, if you're overly polite, I'm not saying you are, but if you are because it serves your relationship, it serves your relationship.
[00:21:30] There's no imperative to, like, share something that's going to be a little bit more authentic maybe, but might damage the relationship. Like, there's such a health-- a good range of behavior, and we just-- Like, my goal is to bring, uh, the society back to the Goldilocks
[00:21:49] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:50] larry: zone, which is this beautiful zone where humans, human beings can do lots of different things together.
[00:21:56] There are lots of different political systems. It's just there's a [00:22:00] range that's completely unhealthy down here with suppression and up here with extreme conflict, where the goal is to defeat the other side, and there's almost no other goal. And, and, and so, yeah, I, I, I'd say that you guys are good.
[00:22:16] nicole: Well, it's just, it's funny to me, Jolene, that you even had that question 'cause I'm like, first of all, Larry's not gonna know. Second of all, say what you need to say. Like, w- like, we've been friends for so long, and I think that's part of what was, is so cool about the Enemies Project, where you, like... I mean, it's such an actor thing, but, like, you really, when you get down to the human bits, like you ask your, your, your guests, you know, "Tell me something that's important to you," or, or l- I'm, I'm not using the correct questions, but, like, lights you up, that's beautiful in your life.
[00:22:50] And they immediately, you know, go on their, whatever their experience is, and they're seeing, wait, that person, I'm struggling because they [00:23:00] can't be my enemy now because I
[00:23:02] larry: they love their kids so much
[00:23:05] nicole: They love their Everybody loves their kids.
[00:23:06] larry: I think that, what Jolene was saying was not that you guys are doing it wrong. She was just, like, comparing it to, like Larry just said,
[00:23:15] nicole: I
[00:23:15] larry: high conflict is good, and we got a good thing, and we don't even go there.
[00:23:19] nicole: Right, right
[00:23:20] larry: yeah, so I just wanted to, to pr- to pr-
[00:23:24] Jolene: Thank you, Larry. Screw you, Nicole.
[00:23:29] nicole: Oh. No, it's true
[00:23:33] Jolene: I wanna kind of dig into some of the interviews that we, that we got to see. one of the concerns is that maybe you're legitimate- legitimizing someone on the other side. You're giving them, and I think you even referenced it, you're giving them a bridge, um, maybe to, to entice people to come over to their, know, their side that is, um, m- maybe not, [00:24:00] um, the best path forward.
[00:24:02] larry: Right
[00:24:03] Jolene: how, how does somebody then protect their safety i- in some of these really, strange, you know, confrontations? The, the Zionist and the, the Palestinian. I mean, like that
[00:24:15] larry: So I think there are t-two things in, in this question, if I can. One is, is it healthy for society to be platforming, people who have extreme views who we b- who some people might believe is dan- are dangerous? And, and the second thing is how do I protect the people in the room Who, who might
[00:24:33] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:33] larry: themselves or h- or have been oppressed by the other, the other side.
[00:24:37] so firstly, the people in the room, that they are making the choice. It's not like I'm forcing them to sit in the room. They believe that this conversation is going to serve them personally
[00:24:48] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:24:49] larry: and to serve society. Like, these people are all understand that they're making a sacrifice. they actually are for society because they're gonna get possibly [00:25:00] feedback from their own side that they were, they too much of an overture to the other side.
[00:25:04] They, might believe that they're platforming the other side and be confused about it, but they believe ultimately that we can't have a society where everyone's hating each other. so they make the choice. But I will say that was one episode, and I'm not gonna t- say which one, but where the person afterwards felt like he or she re-experienced a traumatic episode, and there wasn't sufficient support for them afterwards.
[00:25:32] Jolene: हम्म
[00:25:34] larry: that surprised me because the episode went really well, and that person ha-ha-- said afterwards, you know, like, "I, I don't feel like it went well."
[00:25:43] nicole: Oh, wow
[00:25:44] larry: so that happened once f- with fifteen episodes, thirty people. And, and I've done thousands of mediations where, between people, were deeply personal issues and, I'm always there for the person afterwards.
[00:25:57] In this case, I wasn't. [00:26:00] So I, I, I don't write it off. I just view it as unusual. and we are going to be doing some episodes most likely, not sure, but in San Quentin Prison, um, where between people who are, um, who have committed a crime and the person who the, the victim of the crime.
[00:26:19] nicole: Wow。
[00:26:19] larry: in that case, there's a group who will be providing support to both sides.
[00:26:24] I don't actually myself believe that's necessary, but I'm not opposed to it in any way.
[00:26:30] you know, I think it's actually quite healing typically for the people, but not necessarily. You know, just like, you know, most experiences that people think are positive, there is somebody who's going to have a negative experience.
[00:26:43] And particularly they, they-- people believe that, you know, the, it's the oppressed. It's the left who typ-typically believes we should not be sup- talking to that, that person should not be talking to their oppressor. That is completely unfair. And so now I'm gonna m- I'm gonna move to the, societal point about [00:27:00] platforming.
[00:27:01] And I'm not making a statement in the show about whether it's fair. Let's say you believe that the Palestinian side is completely in the right and Zionist Jews have oppressed the Palestinians. I'm not saying it's fair that this Palestinian man who has watched so many of his family and relatives be killed or displaced, that it's fair for him to sit with, with this other guy who's living in Israel and is in the IDF and who himself doesn't want war, he says, but he's in the IDF, and he lives a pretty good life.
[00:27:36] Like, is it fair? I'm not making a comment about that. You can make your own comment about that, but I'm saying that it's effective from my perspective to speak to the other side, typically. It's usually effective in transforming the other side. Hearing the other side gives them confidence that they-- you will help address their issues, that you won't ignore their issues, that they don't have to go to war with [00:28:00] you.
[00:28:00] And so I'm making a comment about effectiveness in society. You will never convince the other side by rebuking them complete. What you'll do is you'll motivate your side to have a war with them, which is-- can be also effective, right? A war, if you can win it, gets the stuff done that you want it done.
[00:28:19] But my, my point is that in, in our society, particularly in the United States, but throughout the world, wars resolve almost nothing because the other side ain't going away. Unless you kill them all or you repress them all, they're coming back for you. And it's obvious in the United States, right? Like the swings from left to right, they are coming back.
[00:28:41] You think you won? Forget it. You didn't win. They're coming back for you, particularly if you operate in a way that then ignores them. You are then confirming their worst fears. my, my view is that it's effective to have a conversation with them, to show them that you're a human being, [00:29:00] and to dial down the vitriol so that you can actually deal with them
[00:29:04] Jolene: we have found, um, with our podcast that a lot of people will write in and say to Nicole, "How, why did you allow Jolene to say that? Why didn't you, you know, why didn't you come back with this?" And the same, you know, on the conservative side, "My gosh, Nicole, how can you, how, why don't you...
[00:29:20] Jolene, why don't you go after her?"
[00:29:22] larry: Hmm.
[00:29:22] Jolene: We've, we've, we've established these teams, and we want our team to
[00:29:26] larry: Yeah
[00:29:27] Jolene: to, and at all costs
[00:29:29] larry: They're bringing you outside of the healthy zone where you can resolve things together. That's what-- And, and they think that's gonna win. You know, it's, it's a mistaken view because it, it is a bubble view. You get the i- the, the impression that we can win,
[00:29:43] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:44] larry: can defeat them.
[00:29:46] nicole: Right
[00:29:46] larry: and if you actually believe that, th- and you don't really care about those people that much, then it's effective.
[00:29:53] But they have the com- completely mistaken view of a healthy relationship
[00:29:58] Jolene: Yeah. That's a great
[00:29:59] larry: And, and you [00:30:00] guys obviously know that
[00:30:01] nicole: well, when we started, Larry, it was like even with our producer, mean, it's, it is like fighting... It's a big David and Goliath kind of f- thing. 'Cause we were like, "Oh, no, no, no. We don't want, like, angry faces as our art cover. We don't want... Like, we're not fighting each other." And so when the podcast first started, people were like, "I don't know what to do with you two.
[00:30:23] Like, what do you mean?" But we're still challenging each other, and, but we're just n- we just want to listen. And, and there are things that thankfully, like I'm curious enough and Jolene's curious enough, and I've learned so much about where she comes from. 'Cause w- as you show in your Enemies project, in every single episode, everyone has multiple stories as to why they believe what they believe. and it is about protection. It is about... What's fascinating, I wanna ask you several questions. Number one, how do you find the people to do the pro- to go on the, the sessions with you? [00:31:00] what I found in almost every conflict, and I, I'm just trusting that you didn't plan it, but they all seem to have a very similar wound
[00:31:10] larry: Yeah, that's, that's been a an interesting coincidence. the way we find them, w- the way we found them previously was that I would go out, like, to, to places personally and try to meet people. And interestingly, anyone I met on one side or the other, it-- if I liked them personally, they were gonna be good on the show.
[00:31:29] nicole: Yeah
[00:31:30] larry: Like, I, if I had a good rapport with them, it didn't matter how extreme their views were. Like, I, I n- had a good sense that I was gonna be able to get to something that I really could identify with myself, and we were gonna have fun or it's gonna be powerful. because that was very time-consuming.
[00:31:46] We've switched to g- pursuing through social media now because people will return our direct messages 'cause we have a lot of followers, and there are a lot more rounds of having to screen people,
[00:31:59] nicole: I bet
[00:31:59] larry: [00:32:00] than in meeting them in person because very often, you know, p- people in social media are, are performers, for one.
[00:32:06] But even beyond that, if they're not, I have to get to, like, the, the s- the, the part of them that loves other people. And you can tell that, like, I can tell that very often if I just meet somebody that there's a big part of them that's like that. But through, through a screen, it's mu- it's much harder, and they have to be the kind of person who loves other people.
[00:32:32] They just love their people in order to really understand the other side
[00:32:36] Jolene: That is interesting. what's the common theme? Nicole, you had said there's a common theme, or there is
[00:32:43] larry: Oh yeah
[00:32:43] Jolene: a traumatic event. what is that?
[00:32:47] nicole: Oh yeah, Jolene has a interesting perspective about this.
[00:32:51] Jolene: I'm leading you into this question.
[00:32:53] larry: sometimes it's really, like, amazingly overlapping. Like, [00:33:00] we, we were both sexually s- abused as kids, and we're both alcoholics. Or we, we both watched family members get shot. Like, those things I'm usually aware of, and I'm surprised, you know, when I'm interviewing people that it overlaps like that.
[00:33:15] Usually, though, it's just an overlap in that their most painful experience is a lack of belonging. It's more generalized. You know, when they were excluded as a-- from their family as a kid, whatever it was from. You know, uh, because they're, they're gay or because they are trans or-- but, but also because they're an immigrant or, you know, like, there could be so many different...
[00:33:40] But it's almo-- most people's most painful experience, not all, but most, particularly people who are later in life, I find younger people aren't always this way, but most people, it's about being rejected by somebody. And almost always their, best experience of life is the reciprocal [00:34:00] of that, where they had perfect acceptance.
[00:34:03] For younger people, sometimes it's more about, like, their best experiences are more about themself, like, like, you know, when I-- we got to go to Europe and explore things and, you know, and expand as a person. Um, but as people get older, it generally has to do with other human beings and their place, and so they can-- there's a lot of overlap between them, even if their exact stories aren't the same.
[00:34:29] Jolene: So if somebody doesn't identify as being traumatized or h- you know, was always the popular kid and, and all that, are they not an activist? Or
[00:34:40] larry: That's exactly right. I mean, th- there, uh, very surprisingly for me, that was like a, a revelation
[00:34:48] nicole: an activist is the bottom line. She's like, "I wasn't traumatized, so what do-"
[00:34:51] Jolene: traumatized. How could I be a leader?
[00:34:53] larry: it's interesting because I've found that activists almost always are people who are trying to [00:35:00] protect other people from the pain that they suffered. Jolene, it doesn't mean that everybody-- I mean, you know yourself. But there's a reason that you want to be an activist, right? There is a reason.
[00:35:10] maybe you've seen other people suffer in a way that, that is just not acceptable to you, and that's,
[00:35:16] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:35:16] larry: that's been very painful to you. I don't know, but, but people have a deep reason, 'cause being an activist ain't easy,
[00:35:23] you have to, like, keep going when everybody tells you it doesn't work, and y- and everyone's saying no, and, and with conflict and people yelling at you and all this other...
[00:35:32] You've gotta be doing it for, like, a really powerful reason, and it usually comes out of your personal experience. There's one other area which has been surprising to me that people are activists. I'm just really beginning to understand this. There is a group of activists, and I, I'm virtually certain you don't fall into this category, Jolene, but there-- I'm, I'm, I'm certain.
[00:35:54] But there's a group of activists who, are not empathetic. [00:36:00] Um, they don't have what, what people call affective empathy. They can't feel other people's pain, but they are very connected to the rules of society. People who, who are low in what's called affective empathy usually have very structured rules around order and fairness
[00:36:18] nicole: Mm.
[00:36:18] larry: they've attached themselves to in order to understand what is acceptable.
[00:36:22] Because most of us, in order to find what's acceptable, is we balance our own pain and someone else's pain that we can feel, right? We're b- we're naturally balancing. But people who don't feel other people's pain don't have that natural balance. They, they prioritize generally themselves until they learn that there are these rules that people operate through.
[00:36:44] And so people who, who are low in affective empathy are very often deeply, deeply attached to the rule structure, like amazingly attached. And they-- It's so formative to them that they will become activists if they see people [00:37:00] violating what they believe to be the rules
[00:37:02] nicole: But Larry, isn't that dangerous for all of us if you have low empathy?
[00:37:06] larry: it is a category of people
[00:37:08] nicole: Ага.
[00:37:09] larry: exists,
[00:37:10] nicole: Ага
[00:37:11] larry: I don't know what percentage, but I'll tell you this. And this is gonna be a subject of the, of the show. We're, um, we're shooting a show. I'm pointing over here to the, to the, uh, seats. But we're shooting a show, uh, on Thursday that's an AI episode,
[00:37:25] I interviewed a lot of people for the AI side.
[00:37:29] Almost all of them were low in affective empathy.
[00:37:33] Jolene: Wow!
[00:37:34] larry: almost every one of them.
[00:37:35] nicole: I can't wait.
[00:37:37] larry: And the person I found was not, because the per- I, I, I thought, saw it as a so- sociological insight, but not effective for the show because they're not gonna f- the other person's not gonna feel for them, and they're not gonna feel for the other person.
[00:37:51] But we're gonna talk about it on the show because... And they, not only were they low in affective empathy, they know it about themselves, that they're different, and [00:38:00] they, and they almost all say that. And so the, it's four people who fell into the category. I found one, so four out of five that, that we're interviewing for the, for the show.
[00:38:09] they all have said that it's common in that world.
[00:38:15] nicole: Oh
[00:38:17] larry: among the, you know, people just,
[00:38:19] nicole: That
[00:38:19] larry: like, they're, they're kind of normal
[00:38:21] nicole: Yep
[00:38:22] larry: in that world. And so it's k- it's pretty scary that the people who are developing this new technology for us and the way of being are the ones who actually don't feel other people's pain that much and are very rules-based and who will benefit from it because they're gonna get rich.
[00:38:38] Um, you know, like, like, it's, it's, it's fairly frightening perspective
[00:38:42] nicole: AI also taking human behavior for all the f- all of us empathetic, higher empathetic? Like they're using us for their gain. Meaning like, right, in terms of AI, that, that, that AI's just taking all of our behaviors. And mimicking, like all our higher [00:39:00] empathy
[00:39:00] larry: Yeah, it is a mimic. I mean, it doesn't feel it itself, yeah.
[00:39:03] nicole: yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:39:04] larry: And like one, one person who was on the-- who I interviewed was really interesting. He described himself, you know, uh, 'cause I asked people, I've grown to ask people in, in my interviews, "When was the last time you felt somebody's pain deeply? Felt it like where you were in pain because of their pain?"
[00:39:23] Because I've recognized that if they answer, "I can't really remember. Oh, there are a lot, but I can't..." Then, then they're low in effective empathy, and they're likely not going to make a good-- they're not gonna be good on the show.
[00:39:37] nicole: Right.
[00:39:37] larry: don't find these people more on the right or the left, okay?
[00:39:41] nicole: Yeah
[00:39:42] larry: It's not a left-right thing.
[00:39:43] it's a particular characteristic that either we're born with or some people develop in order to protect themselves ag-again- against pain, but they're not gonna be good on the show. So I've a- I've grown to ask this, and one guy was describing his, like, ideal world from AI, and [00:40:00] he's like, "Okay, I have my girlfriend 'cause I love her," which I explored with him what that means, and it, and it me-- and it means that, you know, he enjoys having her and, but it, but it wasn't like he felt her pain,
[00:40:11] nicole: Right
[00:40:11] larry: so it's different.
[00:40:12] But then he said, "Maybe I have a friend, and everybody else basically is a robot." He likes that vision. Like, I want some human relationship, but robots are easier to understand. They get things done. We can tell them what to do. It's not a bad place to have them doing everything. Like, that's an acceptable world to him.
[00:40:35] That doesn't cause him pain to imagine, which was fascinating to me because when I imagine that
[00:40:42] Jolene: I, I, okay, but I'm sorry to interrupt, but don't, Larry, wouldn't that be somebody who was neglected as a kid? I mean, wouldn't that be their trauma? That they, I mean, they didn't have
[00:40:51] larry: So why are people low in effective empathy? There, some people believe that it's caused by trauma, right? that is the reason, but we can also [00:41:00] be born that way. I mean, the, it can be, it can be both. And, and, you know, there have been a lot of studies about people who go into technology, and it, not necessarily about whether they're low in a-affective empathy.
[00:41:12] They don't use those-- Affective empathy is feeling other people's pain, but that they, they're low on empathy scales in terms of how they actually respond to people who are in pain. and, you know, there's an effective altruist movement, which you may have heard of, but basically, it's m- very often people in technology are in favor of this, where they believe empathy, feeling other people's pain is dangerous.
[00:41:38] That, that what is better is to analyze it, what, what, what a good policy is. Don't be swayed, persuaded by the homeless person on the street. It's more effective to give it to the charity, which may be r-true, right? So there, there is this kind of idea that effective [00:42:00] empathy is not ideal in the world, and that leads people to believe that they have a better system
[00:42:09] Jolene: That's kinda scary
[00:42:10] nicole: and even just talking about it this way, I'm like, we're still talking in extremes. Like, why can't we feel and think at the same-- Like, why
[00:42:19] larry: Most of us do. Most of us do
[00:42:22] nicole: I mean, so I have something I wanna with you, Larry, and, and maybe this has to do with, like, what is the future of "The Enemies Project"?
[00:42:31] What are, what are your hopes and dreams for it? Because I was really struck, and I'm gonna share you a story. But I was really struck by the Zionist and Palestinian episode. at the end of it, I mean, I guess I'm gonna give it away. But at the end of it, they come to this sort, sort of cozy of each other. the episode ends, and then your voiceover comes up and says that, and I'm don't, I don't remember the person's name, but the
[00:42:59] larry: [00:43:00] Najib
[00:43:01] nicole: who's like, "Hey, I think it would be great, would-- Larry, would you ask the Zionist Jew," his name,
[00:43:08] larry: Eleazar
[00:43:09] nicole: "Eleazar, if I could come to the Sunday school and have..."
[00:43:14] 'Cause, 'cause Eleazar teaches Sunday school to kids, right? Is that correct?
[00:43:19] larry: Mhmm
[00:43:19] nicole: the Palestinian man was like, "I would love to come and talk to these children." that Eleazar was like, "That's wonderful." And that then the next, uh, voiceover was that the temple said no.
[00:43:34] larry: Yeah.
[00:43:35] nicole: And-
[00:43:36] larry: places that he worked said no
[00:43:37] nicole: Said no. And I'm gonna just share this tiny story that right when, Trump was elected the first time, my husband's Jewish, his best friend's Jewish, and we were seeing a lot of divide already, a lot of toxic, behavior happening. And, my husband's best friend had contacted some churches in [00:44:00] Alabama see about going and speaking with them about being Jewish, and, and the church leaders were very excited about this, about, like, having this, like, dialogue, and they bought their tickets. They were all ready to go, and the community said, "Absolutely not."
[00:44:18] sometimes I feel... I love this project. I love that you're showing human transformation and understanding, and I'm hoping you have, like, 100,000 followers on YouTube, that people are watching and they're liking it, and they're being moved by it.
[00:44:36] But what do we do? Like, what is the bigger... Is there a...
[00:44:40] larry: what's the... So we, we talk a lot, you know, this is g- maybe a little wonky, but we talk a lot in the bridging field. This is part of this thing called bridging, about theories of change. How are we actually going to change society? I
[00:44:54] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:55] larry: it, we're a ripple in an ocean of vitriol which [00:45:00] is rewarded.
[00:45:00] nicole: Yes.
[00:45:01] larry: do you, how do you change that?
[00:45:03] nicole: Yes
[00:45:04] larry: and I'll, I'll say that my own belief is that the bridging field has it wrong. They're training lots of people to talk to each other. They're training the choir. Those are people who already are interested in talking with, to each other. That we have to actually educate the public and, and, and we're trying to do it in a way through entertainment, because I don't believe you can educate people on a broad scale unless they want to be educated, unless they're enjoying it.
[00:45:34] And so we have one approach to that. But I think that it, the, I think that you have to basically, it's not, people aren't interested in bridging. They're not interested in depolarization. These are wonky terms that nobody care... What they're interested in is healing. They want healing in their personal relationships.
[00:45:53] 60, 70% of people want healthy personal relationship, even if they don't know how to get there. [00:46:00] They crave that. They want to be listened to. my belief is that people crave this in their personal relationships, and they crave this in their social relationships. And those are the people who are going to change our world politically once they're...
[00:46:16] They don't feel like they're part of the system. They see the system as completely different than them, like they're a bunch of idiots who are in control, and they're checked out, and I wanna check these people back in. I believe it has to be done through media, at least largely, where you're basically showing people a different way, and you're helping them understand that society is in the unhealthy zone of conflict.
[00:46:41] to educate that there is a healthy and unhealthy zone of conflict, particularly in politics We are basically eating ourselves. We are an organism that is eating itself. The immune system has gone crazy, and so we've made war amongst ourselves. [00:47:00] Nothing can survive that. There is-- That is not a healthy range, and so my, my goal is through entertainment and media to educate people on a large scale.
[00:47:09] And it's not going to happen with us unless we have celebrities on our episodes. So my hope is to have Mark Ruffalo and Mel Gibson, where th- thirty, fifty million people watch it, and it's a social conversation where we actually understand. Because one thing we haven't talked about is that not only do people crave this, but we are actively...
[00:47:32] Imagine if in your personal relationship, there was somebody there who was constantly telling you that your husband was evil.
[00:47:39] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:47:40] larry: Constantly, secretly whispering to you, "Look what he just did. He is so selfish. I bet there was something wrong with him in childhood." That's what we've got in society. So the other piece, the other piece is that we have these enemy makers, and their goal is personal power, [00:48:00] generally.
[00:48:01] Political and media figures who profit from our division because people will follow them if they make the other side out to be a con- a, a threat. And so the other piece of that is to educate the public i- broadly that that is a strategy that they are using, and the entire system is suffering. We are the system.
[00:48:22] We are an organism, and we cannot survive that. We move into the unhealthy zone of enmity, and once you believe someone's the enemy, you will defeat them at any cost, and they will then try to defeat you at any cost. So my goal is through, through entertainment to bring about this level of shift, you know, that's gotta compete with the, uh-- People have gotta want it, and people want conflict.
[00:48:51] Th-they don't want it in their world, but they're attracted to it entertainment-wise.
[00:48:56] nicole: Mm-hmm
[00:48:56] larry: so we've got a, a kind of a formula [00:49:00] which attracts people, like millions of people do watch, and in part because there's conflict in it, conflict which leads to healing. if we were just healing, and you guys are healing, it's a, it's a different audience because it's-- even though they say they want that, it's not pulling...
[00:49:19] I, I, I wanna be cautious here because what you're doing is beautiful and, and transforming for the people who watch. But, but I know from my own posts that when it's only healing, most people won't watch it
[00:49:33] Jolene: Yeah
[00:49:35] nicole: me, we, we, yes, we deal with that every single
[00:49:38] larry: Yeah
[00:49:39] Jolene: Who did you, who did you say your dream pair would be? Mel
[00:49:42] larry: Well, we ha--
[00:49:42] Jolene: who?
[00:49:43] larry: Mark Ruffalo. We have, we have a list of celebrities. Uh, I mean, he- that's just one, but we have a list of celebrity episodes and, like, three people on each side that we want to do, and Rosie O'Donnell and Megyn Kelly. Um, Rosie follows us, and there are a, a bunch [00:50:00] of celebrities that follow us.
[00:50:01] We're not personally connected to them, so trying to make headway in that. Once we do one, because the effect is gonna be the same. It, it seems like these people will be performing, and maybe they will because they're actors and they're aware of their audience, but almost everybody who sits in the seats stops performing
[00:50:18] nicole: cause, you're also there all day, right? An actor can't stay in that mode. They just
[00:50:23] larry: Yeah, yeah
[00:50:24] nicole: And I-- we can tell you're really good at this, and so it's just... That'll be really interesting
[00:50:30] larry: Yeah. I think that's necessary, and we're not obviously the only media force. You guys are, lots of other people are, but I think that, you know, I, I call it experience multiplication. You can't have millions of people in the United States have these interactions like you're having. It's just people aren't gonna do it,
[00:50:51] Jolene: Yeah
[00:50:52] larry: and millions and millions of them.
[00:50:54] But you can multiply your experience by however many people watch. We can multiply the two [00:51:00] people's experience that we are showing by however many people watch, and that is extremely powerful because people actually can feel the difference, and that begins to change their view of the other side
[00:51:14] Jolene: That's awesome. Larry, this has been so good. This, I mean, a- a- again, we were so excited to talk to you because we've watched all of the, the YouTube series. but even having this conversation with you has been transformative. I mean, I just, I think that you, you are hitting on something that is s- that could be, could really, could heal us, could really,
[00:51:40] larry: Le- let's hope so.
[00:51:46] nicole: Hey, Larry, uh, let's do a good for the soul. Do you have a good for the soul for us?
[00:51:50] larry: I do. Something I love, I don't know if other people connect with this in the way that I do, but there is a video [00:52:00] of some-- all these guys, like, after a soccer game somewhere in Europe, you know, a bunch of guys drunk, their shirts are off, and someone lost their cell phone. And they have a cell phone. Like, one guy's yelling, "Anyone s- have their cell phone?"
[00:52:14] And, and, and everybody's yelling from different teams, "Do you have a cell phone?" And then finally, they find somebody who lost his cell phone, and he comes up and they say, "What's the code?" And he says the code. And the f- the guy in the front who's drunk types in the code and, and it opens it up, and 150 guys are just hugging each other.
[00:52:36] And s- and, and there's like, "Oh, my God!" And they're jumping up and down. That is the world I wanna live in.
[00:52:43] nicole: I
[00:52:44] larry: That is just a bunch of idiots, and I wanna be one of them,
[00:52:48] nicole: Yes.
[00:52:48] larry: celebrating for no reason. yeah,
[00:52:51] nicole: it.
[00:52:52] Jolene: mean that, isn't that like all of the World Cup stuff that we
[00:52:54] nicole: Oh,
[00:52:55] larry: yeah
[00:52:56] nicole: good
[00:52:57] Jolene: so great.
[00:52:58] larry: Yeah
[00:52:59] Jolene: yeah.[00:53:00]
[00:53:00] nicole: It was so great. All right, we will, and we will find this video 'cause I think, I think I've actually seen what you're, what you're talking about,
[00:53:06] Jolene: yeah, I
[00:53:07] larry: Yeah
[00:53:07] nicole: will put it in the show notes to be like, "This is Larry's Good for the Soul."
[00:53:10] larry: Yeah.
[00:53:10] nicole: right.
[00:53:11] larry: I showed it to my wife, and she was like, "Hmm."
[00:53:17] Jolene: Wow. It takes a lot for her to get excited, huh?
[00:53:22] larry: We just have different senses of humor.
[00:53:24] nicole: exactly. Exactly. right, so, uh, this is the part where we ask you a would you rather, and then you'll ask us a would you rather. So this is, this is Jolene's forte. So Jolene, are you ready for the would you rather?
[00:53:38] Jolene: am.
[00:53:43] Larry, would you rather listen to your enemy defend your position or have to defend theirs?
[00:53:51] larry: Oh, I'd much rather hear them listen to my-- them defend my position. It's hard to do the other one. Yeah. [00:54:00] Yeah. I mean, I'd like to do what's easy. Um, but, but, um, I know which one's better for me to do, which is to defend theirs. Like I'm gonna transform them. Yeah
[00:54:12] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:54:13] well, but I mean, didn't we see this in, in... Again, viewer, please, please go and watch these, uh, uh, episodes because they, they truly are amazing. Like, even the, the one with the, the cop and the activist, like she was able to say things to him that he didn't actually
[00:54:31] nicole: Yes
[00:54:32] Jolene: in deeper even
[00:54:34] larry: Yeah
[00:54:34] Jolene: you know, things, and you were like, "Okay, he..."
[00:54:37] And he was blown
[00:54:37] larry: That, and that always happens, and I'm 100% sure that Nicole understands why, because when she occupies a character, she just says things that the character w- is not written into the script and, you know,
[00:54:51] nicole: Yeah.
[00:54:51] larry: you just can be... Once you, once you get it, y- you're in it, and you, you kn- you understand what it would be like to be that person
[00:54:59] nicole: And I was [00:55:00] really struck, uh, Larry, in those identity confus- confus- what is it? The identity
[00:55:06] larry: Confusion
[00:55:07] nicole: uh, sections. There's pretty much across the board, every, uh, participant went there. Like, that's not easy. And they
[00:55:18] larry: It's, it-- Yeah. It takes, it takes a little time. They, they always think it's weird at first,
[00:55:23] nicole: course.
[00:55:24] larry: end they're, like, crying.
[00:55:26] nicole: Totally.
[00:55:27] larry: Yeah
[00:55:27] nicole: amazing. It's amazing.
[00:55:29] All right. do
[00:55:31] larry: Yes.
[00:55:32] nicole: you rather for
[00:55:33] larry: Yes, I do.
[00:55:35] nicole: Okay
[00:55:35] larry: you rather laugh like a little kid with your friend or share something really, really deep with them?
[00:55:47] Jolene: 100% laugh 'Cause that's just so contagious. Oh, but Nicole, you're so much, you're s- you're a deeper person
[00:55:58] nicole: I--
[00:55:58] Jolene: I
[00:55:58] nicole: but, but [00:56:00] laughing is the best. Laughing is the best, and we don't do enough of it. I can talk deep all day long. It's what I do. It's just how I'm built. But to laugh with your friend is just where it hurts. That's the
[00:56:14] larry: Mm, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Me too.
[00:56:17] nicole: Let's
[00:56:17] larry: Yeah, all three of us.
[00:56:20] Jolene: All
[00:56:21] nicole: Uh, so, so Larry, before we let you go, you please tell our audience where we find all of the things about The Enemies Project and you?
[00:56:31] larry: So enemiesproject.org, um, that'll link to all of our episodes on YouTube. It'll link to our Instagram, um, and it'll have information about me. Go watch, you know, an episode. You'll probably be drawn in, um, and, and want to, you know, want to have that influence in your life
[00:56:52] nicole: That's great. Thank you so much, Larry. We really appreciate you coming on We've
[00:56:57] larry: Yeah, I, I enjoyed it. Thank [00:57:00] you
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