Prayer vs Meditation: Your Brain Can't Tell the Difference
We're about to talk about religion, which means a good portion of you just got a little uncomfortable. But here's something wild that might make this conversation easier: science shows that prayer and meditation do essentially the same thing to your brain. Whether you're a Christian praying in a church or an atheist meditating in your living room, your brain is having a remarkably similar experience. Today we're taking a look at why these practices work, how they're more alike than different, and why maybe we should all stop arguing about whose version is "right."
I (Jolene) am a Catholic, and adoration (spending quiet time in the church) has become one of my most cherished rituals. It feels like having an intimate conversation with an old friend, a space where I can be completely honest and vulnerable. For me, prayer is a connection to God, to myself, to what matters most.
Nicole's practice looks different but achieves something remarkably similar. She discovered meditation about 10 years ago and really ramped it up during the pandemic when everything felt chaotic and out of control. Meditation became her way of grounding herself, of finding stillness in the chaos. No religion required - just breath, presence, and an openness to being still.
Dr. Andrew Newberg, a pioneer in neurotheology, has spent his career scanning people's brains while they pray or meditate. What he discovered is fascinating; whether someone's chanting a Buddhist mantra, quietly sitting in meditation or whispering Christian, Jewish or Islamic prayers, similar neurological patterns emerge. The brain doesn't really distinguish between prayer and meditation. Both practices activate similar regions, produce similar neurochemical responses, and create similar states of peace and connection.
This doesn't diminish either practice. It actually validates both. It means that humans across cultures and religions have independently discovered practices that fundamentally change how our brains work, reducing anxiety, increasing compassion, and creating a sense of connection to something larger than ourselves.
What I (Nicole) love about meditation is its accessibility. You don't need to believe in God or subscribe to any religious doctrine. You just need to be willing to sit still and pay attention. There's this misconception that meditation requires sitting cross-legged on a cushion, chanting “om”, but that's not the case. You can meditate while walking, lying down, or sitting in a chair. The practice is about presence, not performance.
What we both discovered is that these practices work best when they're personal and authentic. Jolene's daily readings before starting work create a ritual that centers her for the day. My morning loving-kindness meditation (or something similar) sets the tone for how I move through the world.
It's about cultivating gratitude, trust, and compassion. We’re stopping to recognize our connection to others and to something larger than ourselves. Whether you frame that "something larger" as God or the universe or shared humanity doesn't really matter. The practice and the outcome are remarkably similar.
The beautiful thing about understanding the science behind these practices is that it removes judgment. Prayer isn't superior to meditation, and meditation isn't more enlightened than prayer. They're different paths to the same destination, which is peace, connection, clarity, and compassion. Your brain is getting similar benefits regardless of which practice you choose.
What's particularly powerful about both practices is how they change our relationship with our own thoughts. Prayer and meditation both create space between stimulus and response. When you practice regularly, you develop the ability to pause before reacting, to choose your response instead of being controlled by your immediate emotional reaction.
The world could use more understanding right now. We're so divided, so quick to judge, so certain that our way is the only right way. But what if we got curious instead of judgmental? What if we asked questions about why practices work instead of arguing about whose version is correct?
Whether you pray to God, meditate on your breath, or find peace in nature, you're tapping into something fundamental about human consciousness. You're creating space for stillness in a noisy world. You're cultivating compassion in a culture that often rewards cruelty. You're choosing presence over distraction.
We're not here to convert anyone to prayer or meditation. We're here to share what works for us and invite you to explore what might work for you. Maybe it's the practice you grew up with. Maybe it's something completely new. Maybe it's a combination of traditions that speaks to your specific experience.
The invitation is simple: get curious. Explore. Try things. Notice what creates peace, connection, and clarity in your life. And then do more of that, regardless of what it's called or where it comes from.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Dr. Andrew Newberg Content:
The Mel Robbins Podcast with Dr. Andrew Newberg: https://youtu.be/zVXOyp0q9pA?si=EH_9NfllFj48v1jJ
https://youtu.be/7SJCDLHyeqk?si=Jq3ncdR6w4Pv0WdD Additional Video: https://youtu.be/JdVmBH7HYoY?si=Adw5nPkLyL7ifJHM
Prayer and Meditation Resources:
Jesus Calling: https://www.jesuscalling.com/
Happier Meditation: https://www.meditatehappier.com/
Good for the Soul:
https://www.instagram.com/ohhthatsrich/?hl=en
https://youtu.be/sk8Ct961EMc?si=KVWxThdZXA9rVFQe
Books and Educational Resources:
TA for Tots: https://archive.org/details/tafortotsandothe0000free
Science and Nature:
James Webb Telescope - Space Telescope Science Institute: https://youtu.be/xID7xvIYmEk?si=1U06VfpZ-gR3nDUw
Miscellaneous:
The Protest Rats (NYC Reddit):https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1iayxo5/has_any_one_ever_seen_this_many_rats_before/
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[00:00:00] Nicole: She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says, you shouldn't talk about politics, religion, or money, and we say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud. Hello,
[00:00:20] Jolene: No. Hello, Nicole.
[00:00:24] Nicole: Yes. How are you doing?
[00:00:26] Jolene: I'm good. Isn't it funny because I feel like, we're literally talking about everything that you're not supposed to talk
[00:00:31] Nicole: yes,
[00:00:32] Jolene: today is religion.
[00:00:35] Nicole: exactly. Yes. Prayer and meditation specifically. Yeah. And I thought, what was interesting, it didn't occur to me until about an hour before we got on today that this might air several weeks from now, but today is, uh, October 2nd, which is Yom Kippur. And in New York City it's very quiet and very calm.
[00:00:58] Jolene: the, is this the [00:01:00] most holiest of days in the Jewish religion?
[00:01:03] Nicole: it's a holy day.
[00:01:04] Nicole: It's a holy day. It's the Day of Atonement where people go to service and they fast until, sunset tonight. And then they break the fast. And, but, uh, New York, it's, it's a big old holiday, whether you're Jewish or not. It's pretty quiet. And, um,
[00:01:22] Jolene: So people take the
[00:01:24] Nicole: wish all days were like this. Yes. People take the day off.
[00:01:28] Nicole: Yeah. I didn't have auditions today. I.
[00:01:30] Nicole: yeah. yeah, so here we are and, uh, listener and viewer. The reason this even came up is, uh, we were recording a couple days ago and we stopped the record. It was over, and I said to my friend, Jolene, so what are you doing tonight? And you started telling me that, oh, don't you know that I go to church on Monday nights now? And what is the group called?
[00:01:56] Jolene: so it's called adoration and we're, [00:02:00] because we're Catholic, it is, you go to the chapel and for an hour you are praying we have the blessed sacrament there. Catholics believe that the, the wafer is, um, after it's been blessed, is truly the presence of Christ. And so it is exposed is the term meaning that it's, it's not protected behind the tabernacle.
[00:02:23] Jolene: Like it's, it's there on the altar in, in the chapel. And so it's like Jesus is actually there. And so you, you go for an hour, I mean it, you go for whatever you want. Jeff and I go for an hour I envision that Jesus is in, in my warped brain, um, that Jesus is sitting on the altar, um, with his legs crossed, and he is like, Hey, glad you showed up tonight.
[00:02:49] Jolene: What you got? What you got for me? I mean, like, like that's literally in my head. It's like talking to your very best friend, friend. And he's like, so what you got? Like, tell me what's going on with [00:03:00] you? What can I help you with? I mean, and so that, so we spend that hour in adoration.
[00:03:05] Nicole: And so you were saying how nice and quiet it was and you thought about things and I said to you, oh. That sounds like my meditation practice.
[00:03:16] Nicole: And all of a sudden we thought, huh, maybe we should talk about this. And then I was thinking, you know, I bet you there's doctors that study the brain and what the effects of prayer and meditation are.
[00:03:31] Nicole: And I found them
[00:03:33] Jolene: you're so good about researching. So I wanna hear this, I wanna hear, um, because I think we, we started talking about, okay, how do you pray for an hour? Like, how is that, and, as we talked about it, you said, well, it's, it's, so, it's like meditating. I mean, you've gotta focus your brain and you start to get distracted and you go, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[00:03:51] Jolene: Wait, wait, wait. Okay, wait. I gotta, okay, go back. And so there is, I think there is similarities [00:04:00] between praying and meditating I would say the difference is you are meditating. For yourself.
[00:04:08] Nicole: Um, not necessarily. There's all kinds of meditations, there's all kinds of meditation practices, there's all kinds of ways to meditate, whether it's a loving kindness meditation, you might be, meditating for, uh, connection with the world nature. It's something bigger than yourself, which I think is a lot like prayer.
[00:04:29] Nicole: Uh, it could be for something going on personally with you, work, stress, uh, grief,
[00:04:35] Jolene: Are you talking to yourself?
[00:04:37] Nicole: you're not really talking. should I start by like telling you what I learned today about
[00:04:43] Jolene: Well, I kind of, I kind of wanna get a basis Yes, I'd, I'd love to get a basis for what it is that you're doing and then how that affects the brain.
[00:04:54] Nicole: Okay. I would never, uh, say that I am a meditation. [00:05:00] I am not a meditation teacher. I only have my own experience. I started doing yoga 30 ish years ago, and. my yoga practice, you're fo following the focusing on the breath. You are moving and you sort of go into, you can go into a state of quiet, but you're always aware of the, it's what's called a monkey brain. everybody's brain is, always thinking. And, and according to this neuroscientist slash neuro theologist, he said, only 5% of us don't have a, the similar brain. All the rest of us have the same brain.
[00:05:44] Nicole: so I started doing yoga and I just sort of assumed I had a meditation practice 'cause I was doing yoga all the time. But if I really got serious about it, I wasn't, I was not sitting and. Meditating.
[00:05:57] Nicole: And when the [00:06:00] pandemic hit, I was introduced to, at the time the app was called 10% Happier. It's now called Happier. Uh, but Dan Harris created it and he, a lot of people know who he is at this point because he was a pretty famous a, b, C newscaster that infamously had a panic attack on air. And he realized, oh my gosh, I need to find something to help me.
[00:06:26] Nicole: And he found meditation. And so I started actively meditating about five years ago. like I said, there's all kinds of ways to meditate. You can, you can walk while you're meditating. You can lay down while you're meditating. It's not necessarily sitting cross legged, like with your fingers together in the way that we all sort of think that that's what you do.
[00:06:53] Nicole: And it isn't about clearing your mind. It's about actually being aware and being aware [00:07:00] when you can focus on your breath and then when your mind starts to wander. So there isn't necessarily. I would imagine, obviously in Catholicism you're praying to Jesus and Buddhism. You're looking at this universal spirit.
[00:07:17] Nicole: As a Muslim, you're praying to Allah. When you're meditating, it's not even about thinking about you. It's just sort of breathing and trying to stay grounded and present and paying attention to what your, where your thoughts are and where your thoughts go. And then trying to not get attached to those thoughts as we all do when we all start.
[00:07:46] Nicole: To how many, I mean, how many times during the day are you like, wait a minute, where am I? What was I thinking? Even we do it when we drive. Wait, wait, how did I get here? What was I thinking? And it's sort of having those [00:08:00] moments, those cl, those of clarity of quiet to, okay, here I am, I'm sitting with, I'm sitting on this chair, I can feel my sit bones on the chair.
[00:08:12] Nicole: I'm looking at my friend. I'm here. I'm not, what's for dinner? Oh my God, did I say something wrong? Am I making any sense? Is this embarrassing? All the things that go in our brains. Right?
[00:08:25] Jolene: Okay. That helps me And, and I, and it's funny because I, and I can't remember if you told me about Dan Harris or if I knew about him, but I remember starting it during, during COVID too, but I felt like I knew it before COVID, so that's why I'm wondering if it was something that you and I talked about,
[00:08:41] Nicole: I think it could have been something we talked about. 'cause I, I did start it right before COVID, but then during COVID, what I thought was really cool was that, 'cause he lived in New York, this is what I think I told you during COVID, he decided to do live. They were like on YouTube at three o'clock eastern every [00:09:00] day. And that's when it was like, even though he was in his apartment, it was such a like for people that were stuck in New York City, it was this, for me, a real sense of comfort, which I imagine prayer is like, because here was this person and he was like, I'm struggling too. Let's breathe together. Let's talk about this and let's, you know, basically I see, I see you.
[00:09:28] Nicole: You're not alone. Which I am guessing is one of the reasons people find. Peace and calm in a congregation, whatever their
[00:09:38] Jolene: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. so I remember doing some of his meditations, and got the app and, and all that. but then I think I also had the opportunity to. There's a Christian, there was, there were Christian meditations that you could do. yeah. And so it was the same concept, but it was maybe [00:10:00] just saying, you know, Jesus, I trust you.
[00:10:03] Jolene: I mean, you know, so doing a, a trusting affirmation maybe, or, you know, something like that. So, yeah, I, I remember doing that.
[00:10:12] Nicole: before we get into the brain health and, and, and what this, what I discovered today or in the last couple days, I know that you weren't always religious and that you did convert to Catholicism when you met Jeff,
[00:10:24] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:25] Nicole: what has faith given you and has it gotten stronger the, the older you've gotten?
[00:10:33] Jolene: I would say that I grew up. In, in the church because we were Methodist, and we would go to church on Sundays,
[00:10:41] Nicole: would
[00:10:42] Nicole: you go every Sunday?
[00:10:43] Jolene: almost every Sunday. I mean, if we were, if we were home, we would go to church. I mean, that was just kind of, that was just the routine.
[00:10:51] Nicole: And did your community do that too?
[00:10:53] Jolene: yes.
[00:10:54] Jolene: Yeah, I mean, you would go as a family and all of our friends went to our church. I mean, that was, and that was probably, [00:11:00] it was almost a social thing but I really didn't take it. I mean, I, I went through the, the things that you were supposed to do. I would go to Sunday school, I went to MYF, which was the Methodist version of like confirmation when you, you're 13 and you know, did all the things. but I, it really wasn't until Jeff and I got engaged and his mother who was devout Catholic said, you're gonna raise your kids Catholic, aren't you?
[00:11:27] Jolene: Because that's the thing, when you get married, when one person is Catholic and the other is not the, the Catholics want you to raise your children in the church. So if you decide that your, so we got married in the Methodist church, yet we had a priest bless our ceremony. He was, he was part of, we had a, we had the Methodist minister and the Catholic priest, and so that it was recognized by the Catholic church, but at that point I did not agree.
[00:11:57] Jolene: I didn't wanna be Catholic. didn't [00:12:00] think that I wanted to be Catholic. we had agreed that we would raise our children Catholic. That was the agreement when you have your, your marriage blessed in the Catholic church. so then it was a conversation, um, and it was really between Jeff's mom and I, and she said, okay, so you are, you're going to go through RCIA was the name of the program to become Catholic.
[00:12:23] Jolene: And it's a nine month program that you learn everything that there is to learn about the Catholic church and then you get confirmed, um, the Saturday night before Easter. And I really, and I think we've talked about this on the show before I went in going, mm-hmm. I'm not gonna be Catholic. I don't, I don't know what y'all do with the Mary thing.
[00:12:41] Jolene: Like, that doesn't make sense to me, and I don't know why you have all these statues and I mean all the things. And so then when I started going to the classes and I, you know, in my cocky self went into these classes and go, yeah, but uh, you know, what are you guys doing with Mary? Like, why is that Mary thing going [00:13:00] on?
[00:13:00] Jolene: And they explained it and I was like, oh, well actually I, I, I believe that. And then, you know, then they were talking about statues and they're like, and they would explain it, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense to me. And pretty soon, you know, I became Catholic.
[00:13:13] Nicole: Is that different than the Pre-Cana classes? Is that a,
[00:13:16] Jolene: Yeah. So the Pre-Cana classes are the classes that you take before you get married
[00:13:20] Nicole: did you do that before you got married, even though you weren't Catholic yet?
[00:13:24] Jolene: Yeah. Yeah. And we did it through the, um, because that was the, that was also the church that we were going to, uh, before we got married, was the Catholic church. And so it made sense for us to go through our pre canan classes there. so I would say though I became a good Catholic because as an adult I learned about Catholicism and had the, had the roles been reversed and Jeff, you know, decided to be Methodist and went through classes as an adult and learned all the things, then, I mean, maybe we'd be Methodist, because I just think as an adult you learn [00:14:00] things and you're, and you're more receptive to learning and you know what questions to ask, whereas you don't, you know, when you're, when you're growing up in a church, you just, you kind of do the things because you were told to do 'em and you don't really, I don't know how much of that learning you really, remember and, and embrace.
[00:14:18] Nicole: you also allowed yourself to be curious. Yes. You went into those rooms, uh, a little cocky, like you knew who you were and what you wanted. And no one's gonna tell Jolene what to do, and I get that 'cause I'm same, you know, and, and, and then you're like, oh.
[00:14:36] Nicole: Which, you know, of course makes me think about our political system and all the assumptions we make about each other until you ask a question like we are doing today and every day on the podcast. And, which I think is a really interesting. Way to cross this is that there is this man named Dr. Andrew Newberg and [00:15:00] I, he's got a Ted Talk that I'll put in the show notes.
[00:15:03] Nicole: He has a really great Mel Robbins interview that I'll put in the show notes. he's a neuroscientist he's a pioneering, uh, doctor in Neurotheology, is what he calls it.
[00:15:16] Nicole: And when he was a little boy, he would get really distressed as to why. Why is everybody in different religions? Why is everyone in a different political party? Like just, I don't get it. And why can't we all just, um, get along and it doesn't make sense? And, and what I don't get it. So he, uh, you know, grew up and went to medical school and kept asking these questions
[00:15:45] Nicole: He got really curious about, when people are having some sort of spiritual practice, what's going on in their brains? part of his, uh, specialty if you, if you will, [00:16:00] um, he works in nuclear medicine where he injects tracers into the body, into the brain, and to be able to see what's going on with Alzheimer's patients. With Parkinson's patients is where he started and he would put people in MRI scans and then he was able to be with these tracers.
[00:16:29] Nicole: He's able to, uh, also do research while he was describing how one person was speaking in tongues and moving and seeing how their brains are activated. He was saying how prayer and meditation do the same things to your brain. so when he was doing these scans, There's a part of your brain called the parietal lobe. It's back [00:17:00] here. It, um, processes sensory information, touch temperature, and it makes you aware of your spatial existence in the world. Like, I'm, I am hitting clothes.
[00:17:13] Nicole: I am, if I fall too hard, I'm gonna fall over. So it's this, it's a sense, it's a, it's also the sense of self where you are in the world.
[00:17:23] Nicole: the findings were that whether you were in a state of prayer or if you were in a state of meditation, it's not like he can see, oh, this person's thinking this. He's just looking at the different, how the brain is changing. He would do, you know. Thousands of scans.
[00:17:40] Nicole: And then he also would then interview these patients about what were this, their experience, what were they feeling, what were they thinking? And no matter across the board, they felt love, energy, God, life force. And he says that there are five core elements that [00:18:00] he keeps coming over, over and over again, whether it's in prayer or meditation, there's a feeling of connection, which this feeling of oneness, this feeling of humanity, this feeling of God, which he saw in the parietal lobe is started to to quiet down.
[00:18:19] Nicole: And the sense of self was no longer forefront. It was more like there's something bigger. the second is a, is a feeling of intensity. Which he saw in Olympic system, which is where you feel your, all of your emotions, your fear, your anger, your your pleasure. like when people would have a spiritual, um, awakening, if you will, it, they would, it was the, the most beautiful vision they had.
[00:18:50] Nicole: The, like, the most, the biggest sense of peace. It was very large, um, large feelings. And it would light up [00:19:00] in the limbic system. He could see it light up. Um, then the third is a sense of clarity where people having a, a huge experience would say like, I understand the world in a different way. I, I feel differently, which he saw in the thalmus, which is in the middle of your brain, is normally, as he called it, a brain at rest is pretty even. And when in a state of meditation or prayer, one side lights up bright and he's like, it every, it was always this sense of clarity that this I like, I will never be the same again now that I
[00:19:46] Nicole: have known this. And then the fourth was a feeling of surrender or letting go so the frontal lobe, which is right behind your forehead, is a place of [00:20:00] concentration where when you go into prayer or you go into meditation, you are like, okay, I'm thinking hard.
[00:20:08] Nicole: Right. And then when you go into that state of feeling something bigger than your frontal lobe shuts down and quiets down, and they see it on the scans. the fifth core element is transformation. Um, where there is a convergence or a near death experience where there's like a before and an after.
[00:20:34] Nicole: Like, I, I can never go back now that I have found this in my life or that whatever it might be. And that every, whether it's a beautiful religious service, a walk in the, in the forest, a beautiful sunset that we all have these. [00:21:00] Feelings. These feelings of connectedness, intensity, clarity, surrender, and transformation.
[00:21:08] Nicole: And it's all, you can see it in the brain when it's happening, which I thought was fascinating. and I was thinking about that and he said in all of his research that 95% of the people had a positive experience with prayer and with meditation and because of the mind body connection, 'cause he's an integrative, um, doctor, that he looks at the whole person, which he's, he's explained as biological psychology.
[00:21:43] Nicole: Sociology, which is social life and social connection, and spiritual is the four. And so that in his research, when people have a, a spiritual practice, whether [00:22:00] it's a religious practice or a meditation practice, or, you know, a feeling of nature that their blood flow is better, their blood vessels work better.
[00:22:12] Nicole: They have lower stress, lower anxiety, um, lower depression. which then, because of all the connectedness, it can affect your health. You have less heart disease, less chronic. Diseases like cancer. I mean, it was really fascinating to me. Um, and one thing that I loved that he said was, he said, each person has a different lock and a different key. And so what makes me feel good and grounded and connected is different than what makes you feel good and grounded and connected. And that the question 'cause, 'cause Mel Robbins asked him, so what do you do? And he's like, [00:23:00] well, I, I get curious. That's what I do. I find joy in talking to all these people and they're all different.
[00:23:09] Nicole: And that's, I just keep asking the questions. And that's, that's my spirituality. He, 'cause he, and then he brings up, like in social media, we're all in these little cocoons. I think it's important to ask the questions and to talk to people, of which I was like, this is wild, that here's this doctor talking about neuro theology.
[00:23:31] Nicole: And yet there's something about what we're doing here that we've got to talk about, asking questions and getting curious and not, you know, going into that Catholic class and saying, well, I know better. And then going, oh, maybe I don't, and I actually want this in my life. I found it hopeful. I found it exciting. he, he talked about like, when, when you have a conversation with a best friend or a romantic partner, [00:24:00] there's that feeling of oneness, that feeling of connection and that he can see. Your brain's lighting up in a different way. and I'm sure this is gonna sound corny, but I remember being in seventh grade And I was in the junior high musical. And I remember finishing the show and we were taking our curtain calls and I just had this, I was overwhelmed by this feeling, and I'm gonna get emotional
[00:24:30] Jolene: Oh my
[00:24:30] Jolene: gosh. something's bigger.
[00:24:33] Nicole: And I found my place, like, it was like, oh, I'm home. This is it for me. 'cause theater too is like a, it's a ritual and it's a connection between people. You are, you are, you are vibing off that audience and that vi that audience is vibing off of you, which, you know, theater is. Such a place of healing and of of [00:25:00] magic.
[00:25:00] Nicole: And I imagine that that's what church can be like and what mosque can be like and what, uh, temple can be like. There's this energy between the space, the people in it, and you feel it and there's this deep connection that you can't really explain, but it can be such a healing thing. I, I think
[00:25:25] Jolene: knowing that, and knowing that there is, um, that there's healing and there's these, the good feelings, I mean both from a, a psychological but physiological, um, results from this, um, why isn't this something that more people experience, you just identified things a super simple that costs nothing and that, um, you can do anywhere and you [00:26:00] don't have to have an education for.
[00:26:01] Jolene: That that would bring so much people, joy and, and relaxation and all, I mean all the things.
[00:26:09] Nicole: I mean, uh, Jolene, he even said like, literally like, find out what works for you, what makes you comfortable. It doesn't, you know, it could be anything. It's you. If you don't, you, it doesn't have to be religion if that's not your thing or if it is your thing. That's cool too. And that sometimes he was explaining like, our brains are filled with neuro pathways and they can be stuck in trauma or they can, they can move. if someone had had a deep religious childhood and it wasn't a good one, maybe that's not for you then like, but you can rewire your brain, by meditating, exercising, uh, you know, and he said, it doesn't have to be this big thing. He said every day you could [00:27:00] stop and breathe for 30 seconds and it's gonna help, it's gonna help
[00:27:06] Jolene: Wow.
[00:27:09] Nicole: your brain.
[00:27:10] Jolene: So, I mean, what a, I mean, of all the things that we talk about, right, in, in a political, from the political standpoint and, and social media and, you know, all of the things, why is this not something that, that more people are identifying something , that can heal, right? I mean, it, it not only is healing for someone who, I mean obviously we talk about the mentally ill and with guns and shooting and schools.
[00:27:42] Jolene: Um, and politicians, and I'm, believe me, I'm not saying, well, we just need to pray about it. I mean, isn't that the thing that nonbelievers, um, say, you know, I'm so sick of, of hearing, you know, your inner thoughts and prayers,
[00:27:59] Nicole: [00:28:00] Right, right.
[00:28:00] Jolene: but literally that's what we are saying.
[00:28:04] Jolene: You need to think and pray.
[00:28:07] Nicole: you and I
[00:28:08] Jolene: Well, I think, yeah, right?
[00:28:12] Nicole: I, I mean, I, I was, I have, I have a couple thoughts. I mean, one was, I was thinking back when you were talking about like growing up and that was part of your social structure. 'cause that was part of my parents' social structure. My mom was a Methodist, my dad was Jewish.
[00:28:26] Nicole: And that was part of the world that you went to church or temple or whatever, and you did all the activities. And a lot of people didn't even really believe necessarily, but it was their place to connect. it seems that that social structure isn't as, prevalent as it was.
[00:28:48] Nicole: Um. Certainly in the fifties or sixties. I was thinking about how could we ever get it would never, it would never happen, [00:29:00] but like thinking about Congress and thinking about all, all of them, that you did a thing like, Dan Harris did at three o'clock at Eastern and like at three o'clock you took five minutes and you just, what you, I'd be in the chamber and you would just sit and be quiet and breathe and not yell.
[00:29:18] Nicole: And not, they couldn't do it, but like, what that could possibly do. And, and what I loved about this guy, Dr. Andrew Newberg, was that he like the scan, show it, like believe whatever you believe, whatever works for you.
[00:29:33] Nicole: and we're all just using different language. What, for what works for us, right?
[00:29:40] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:29:41] Nicole: you believe in Christ and, and all of that. And I might believe, I don't even really know what I believe, honestly, but I, I do feel a connection. I feel a vibration. I love, love
[00:29:59] Jolene: okay. Do [00:30:00] you believe, and maybe you don't wanna answer this, do you believe in God.
[00:30:05] Nicole: I believe there's something, I feel something. I don't know if I would call it God. That doesn't mean I discount anyone that doesn't, that believes in God.
[00:30:20] Jolene: yeah. Right. But you're open that it could be God.
[00:30:24] Nicole: Sure. I mean, I find it interesting like in terms of just like history and ritual that religion has been since the beginning of time in all different cultures in all different ways, and everybody believes in this spiritual being, and they call it different things. And, but there is this innate sense of wanting something.
[00:30:48] Nicole: Human beings want something and there's a ritual and, and the ritual, I love, I love that you all have your own things. I love that you all have your own statues and your own costumes and [00:31:00] your, like a theater pro. I'm like, I'm down. I mean it. I think it's really cool. And I understand why people want to believe in something, do believe in something.
[00:31:12] Jolene: So, okay, so haven't we, um. I mean, I just, I, I feel, and, and I, I don't know how to overstate this too much. Like I just feel like we've, like you have the, and, and not just you, but I think that we, this, this doctor and, and others who, you know, really get into this, have researched this, that have really identified something that, that truly changes us.
[00:31:42] Jolene: Yet I don't think that we are giving it enough credit, and I don't think that we're having a conversation about it that you know that for. So for me, I am saying literally praying. Literally praying, and, and again, to your point, and whether that's [00:32:00] to Jesus or, or Buddha, whatever religion that looks like
[00:32:05] Jolene: that literally changes your physiological body,
[00:32:09] Jolene: not
[00:32:11] Jolene: just your mind and not just your, your wellbeing and all that,
[00:32:17] Jolene: So I can't believe that, that this is not something that is, that is truly being pushed.
[00:32:22] Nicole: I mean, I think it's a brand new concept. Jolene, I think, you know, he's, he's been studying this for 30 years or been curious about it, and neo theology is a pretty new concept, maybe there's some like medical pushback. I do not know. I mean, he seems like he's at the forefront of his field,
[00:32:42] Jolene: But I wouldn't say it's a new theory for, uh, for people who have, who identify as Christian or who identify having a, a faith. that's something that, that, that people who believe in praying, and, and again, if that's [00:33:00] praying or meditating, this is something that they've known forever, right?
[00:33:04] Jolene: That they feel better. And because for all the reasons that they've connected to something and they feel like this is the, the message that, that God, giving them.
[00:33:16] Nicole: I think Dr. Newberg is putting a name to it in a way that maybe Christians and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists, who, whomever and just meditators would be like, oh, I just feel better. I, I feel calmer. I feel a sense of peace. I feel a sense of community. You know, whenever I go talk to my rabbi or my, um, imam or my, my priest, I just, ugh. And he's showing on brain scans. Oh, well your frontal lobe is, is quieted down or your, your thalmus is brightening up and so you feel really clear or you're, um, I mean it's [00:34:00] fascinating. I'll, like I said, I'll put in the show notes, the TED talk especially.
[00:34:03] Nicole: You get to see the brain scans and see what he's talking about. And the Mel Robbins podcast is just him talking about a lot of things. But I really, I've geeked out on the, on the scans 'cause I was like, this is incredible. And I just, I've always been a huge believer in the mind body connection and our health and how important it is to, to connect with people.
[00:34:24] Nicole: I think it was probably very different for New Yorkers than a lot of the country. But during COVID it really screwed us up, this disconnection. We were so.
[00:34:35] Jolene: yeah.
[00:34:35] Nicole: and it screwed up her kids. I, not just in New York, but I saw it with my, with, with all, you know, nieces, all the kids that were just like stuck behind a screen and couldn't go play.
[00:34:45] Nicole: And like that social connection is crucial.
[00:34:49] Jolene: I feel like we've put such an emphasis and, and again, you know, I love a good conspiracy theory, so I'm just, I'm wondering if we've put such an emphasis on medication. [00:35:00] Eating, I mean, you know, eating right? That's just now coming into, okay, let's get rid of the seed oils because that has jacked up our, you know, our systems and blah, blah, blah.
[00:35:12] Jolene: And, you know, getting rid of, of processed foods. And I mean, all the things that we've talked about in, you know, we've talked about exercising, we've talked about eating, right? We've talked, but we've put so much little emphasis on, on prayer and meditation that it's almost like, is, is this a, is this something that big pharma or, or big food has known for a long time?
[00:35:35] Jolene: And, but they don't want you to know there's a secret,
[00:35:39] Jolene: there's a little secret. All you gotta do is pray and you are going to be a better person.
[00:35:46] Nicole: Well, I think Dr. Newberg was saying how western medicine focuses on the biologic, on the biology. That's what they focus on and they focus on the medicine and that's what they do. And then, then integrative medicine, which we've talked about in the, I think [00:36:00] the big food and the pharma episode is looking at the whole person. I mean I guess that's the positive too. Um. The internet and everything we have access to is that people are starting to say, oh, wait a minute, there is more than taking this drug. And, and I think also because we're in this time of deep division and disconnection and loneliness, that we are talking about these things for the first time.
[00:36:31] Nicole: Like maybe that's also why days are becoming more popular, for lack of a better word. And, and pharma can't, can't make money off of this.
[00:36:42] Nicole: Each person has a different lock and a different key.
[00:36:45] Nicole: And I loved that. I love that idea. ' cause it was like, we are all totally, you know, every single person's different what might work for me is not gonna work for you. And, and it sort of gives yourself grace in the best [00:37:00] way. Mel Robbins asked like that.
[00:37:02] Nicole: Her readers are always asking like, how do I get unstuck? And he was talking about like, the brain can literally get stuck and, and that we as humans, yes we have ritual, but when you can break out patterns or learn something new or be curious about something, and of course when you're stuck, you feel sad and it's hard to have energy, but like he was suggesting. Try your best to break outta that pattern and it will unlock those pathways. I think what was so cool about it too is that you, in some ways we have even more possibility than we thought.
[00:37:45] Jolene: Do you think it's it's because, and, and you go back 40 years ago we allowed ourselves time to be silent. We, we don't now. If we've
[00:37:57] Nicole: Oh, you mean
[00:37:57] Jolene: moment, we're grabbing our [00:38:00] phones.
[00:38:00] Nicole: Yes.
[00:38:01] Jolene: I mean, we're, we're looking at our phones or we're looking at our computer. And if you, and if you get a minute, you are, you're listening to something or you think you have to listen to a podcast if you're traveling or if you're, I would love to know how many people and listener, if, if, I would love to hear your feedback on this.
[00:38:18] Jolene: If you are in the car driving, how many times have you turned the radio off and just been in silence? Or if going for a walk, not putting your headphones in or going, um, you know, waking up in the middle of the night, do you immediately reach for your phone to, you know, try to get your, your mind off of whatever you're ruminating on?
[00:38:41] Jolene: And if, and at those times, if we stopped grabbing for something. And listening to something to fill those voids, if we would just allow the silence and to sit in silence and allow that your brain to meditate, allow that, uh, that connection with God [00:39:00] and, and pray instead. I mean, would that, are we flipping a switch there?
[00:39:06] Nicole: I mean, I think that's such a great point, Jolene. It's such a great point. I read an article, it was actually on Brook's Substack. She was, um, interviewing this woman and talking about Generation X, which has really nothing to do with this in, in a way, except to say that we are the generation that is known.
[00:39:25] Nicole: Both we are analog and digital. The
[00:39:29] Jolene: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.
[00:39:31] Nicole: only know digital, and so we know those moments of quiet or discomfort or challenge or terror, whatever, or boredom. I have such a vision of being in New York City. I I was sitting at a cafe on Bleecker Street and it was the mid nineties and I saw my first cell phone. And I looked at the person walking down the street and I was [00:40:00] like, well, they're just calling someone 'cause they're lonely. Just deal with it. That's literally what I thought. Not knowing what was going to happen 30 years later Like there is no silence or there's so little silence.
[00:40:19] Nicole: Right. One thing I will say, they talk about, um, sleep health, that you should not have your phone in your room, my dear.
[00:40:27] Jolene: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:40:30] Nicole: 'cause I rem 'cause in the last podcast you were like, I, I gave the assignment of, of taking a walk without your phone or with the next time you wanna grab your phone, go take a walk. And you're like, what if it's 3:00 AM and I'm, and it didn't occur to me until I was like, wait a minute. You gotta have that phone outta your room. it's, that's such, it's such a good point, Jolene. It's such a good point. And we have generations of kids after us that only know the phone
[00:40:55] Jolene: maybe it's 15 minutes, three times a day sitting in [00:41:00] silence
[00:41:01] Nicole: Okay. That that's a big ask
[00:41:03] Nicole: for people. We could try once a
[00:41:05] Nicole: day for people,
[00:41:08] Jolene: but I mean, but
[00:41:09] Jolene: 15 minutes, three times a day. I mean, as things get crazy, and I mean,
[00:41:15] Nicole: Well, and you're on your Instagram hear right. And you're screaming, you're looking at the, the video that's making you crazy and you hate your, you hate the conservatives and you hate the Republicans, and you hate the liberals, and you hate the Democrats. All the same. Same, same. And you know, put your phone down, walk away, take a deep breath. I did a meditation practice this morning in my bed and it was a quick one. Um, it was five minutes and it was a kindness meditation. part of the, um, meditation was the person leading it saying You're being kind right now to yourself breathing and being quiet and being here.
[00:41:56] Nicole: And I thought, oh, that's so nice. And then I [00:42:00] got up and went on with my day, and then it's finally fall. Like today, it's fall. It's been hot as like a swampy swamp I got. And I was like, and I don't do well with the hot swamp. Finally a nice, lovely fall day. And because I live on the 32nd floor, I have a window that you can only open three inches.
[00:42:22] Nicole: That's just how it is. They don't want you falling out all the things. So I have my three, the three inches open and I'm like, oh, it's beautiful. And then I hear this, me, me, me, me and I live down by the New York Stock Exchange, which for those of you who don't live in New York, the New York Stock Exchange area, financial Financial District is all residential.
[00:42:47] Nicole: Now, all of us that live here are residents. We don't work down here. The stock exchange is sort of open, but it's not open for, like they all, all the traders are, [00:43:00] they're in their offices in Midtown and Jersey and all the things, well, everybody wants to protest in front of the stock exchange. We have a, also have a Trump building around the corner.
[00:43:10] Nicole: And so we always do, do you guys even, do you know Jolene that when they do strikes in the, I think they have 'em in all the cities, they certainly have it in New York, they have these huge inflatable raft rats. They're a huge inflatable rat that they put in front of a, a skyscraper, and then, then the people that are protesting like have bullhorns.
[00:43:33] Nicole: But the rat is like, you're a rat and it's a huge inflatable rat. You don't know what I'm talking about.
[00:43:39] Jolene: Like a balloon, like a Macy's Day parade
[00:43:42] Nicole: balloon. If I can find a video, I will put in the show notes to show you all what I'm talking about. So this happens all the time, and this happens in my neighborhood all the time.
[00:43:52] Nicole: So finally, it's a beautiful day. I've got three inches of fresh air. Me, me, me, and I'm like, what? And I [00:44:00] run to the, to the window and this really heavy frame falls and cuts my toe like splits my toe and I don't hear anything anymore. And I just hold onto my foot and. I am, I am like, everything is stopped 'cause I'm in so much pain and I go and it's bleeding and split open and dah, dah, dah. And I sit there and I look at my foot and I put stuff on it. I'm holding my foot. I'm like, I need to be kind to you foot like, what happened to my meditation? Like I am just, the meditation is gone, but now I'm back. I'm gonna be con like, it was just like, okay, here we are. Cut the noise out. That doesn't, like, here we are.
[00:44:52] Nicole: And then right before we recorded today, I did a 15 minute kindness meditation. [00:45:00] And
[00:45:00] Nicole: they say, and as I was doing the meditation, they, he was suggesting like, think of someone that makes you feel good bring them to mind. And I've thought of you, Jolene,
[00:45:17] Jolene: oh,
[00:45:17] Nicole: see them smiling at
[00:45:18] Nicole: you,
[00:45:19] Nicole: right?
[00:45:20] Nicole: And he said, this person wants to be happy just like you. And if you are gonna have a tough conversation, always remember that the person sitting in front of you wants to be happy just like you. And I
[00:45:39] Nicole: loved that. 'cause I was like,
[00:45:42] Nicole: this is what we forget. We forget about this every day, all day long.
[00:45:48] Nicole: Screaming at social media, screaming at the news that we've decided that you're, you don't believe what I believe. You don't. You can't possibly be like me. And I have to [00:46:00] remember over and over again, this person wants to be happy just like me. And that immediately changes the tone. Your thought process, right?
[00:46:13] Nicole: Because you're like, oh,
[00:46:15] Nicole: huh. Just like you start to get curious in a way, just like you did when you walked in that Catholic class and went, huh,
[00:46:26] Nicole: oh yeah, I kind of, that makes sense to me. And then all of a sudden, like the charge comes off. It's not so hot, it's not so scary. It's not so, you know, other, on that note, my good for the soul,
[00:46:46] Nicole: I have two and one I kind of stole from you, I got to watch the 60 minutes segment with Spencer Cox I wanna put it in the show notes 'cause he's now my, other than, well, James Teleco's, a democrat. [00:47:00] Spencer Cox right now is my favorite Republican. he is on the 60 Minutes episode and he calls for civil and unity with the new Mexican governor, Michelle Lujan Grisham.
[00:47:13] Nicole: And she's a democrat. And I just, I loved their partnership. I loved how their approach to government was. It's a really great segment, you guys, and I'll put it in the show notes so that you can check it out. 'cause it really, to me was like, this, I hope could be our future that people respect each other. Like really wanna dig in and understand and be compassionate. And then the other one is the guy that I sent to you, I'll also put him in the show notes. Uh, it's an Instagram o that's Rich, OHH, that's rich. And he, I don't really understand who he is, but his description is just a dude helping to make this world a better place for [00:48:00] everyone.
[00:48:00] Nicole: And he talks to the phone and he had those really good ideas about the amendments. And I was like, who is this guy? I was like,
[00:48:07] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:48:07] Nicole: sense.
[00:48:09] Jolene: well, okay, so my good for the soul keeping in line with, with our conversation is, Jesus calling and this is, um, it is, I keep it here on my desk because it's a daily, it's, it has daily readings and so it's, um, it's just a book that you can, that is really timeless and every day I start, before I even turn my computer on, I sit down and I read.
[00:48:37] Jolene: And that helps me kind of, you know, keep things in perspective as the day goes. Sarah Young is the author, but she, and she has, um, Jesus calling for young men. She has, um, Jesus calling for, recent graduates. I mean, she, she has different, um, different versions, it's almost [00:49:00] like having a conversation with Jesus and so it's a, it's a great, uh, it's a great way to start the day or in the middle of the day.
[00:49:08] Jolene: Sarah,
[00:49:08] Nicole: do you have a, would you rather
[00:49:09] Jolene: Yes.
[00:49:15] Jolene: would you rather have a conversation with God
[00:49:20] Nicole: Oh,
[00:49:21] Jolene: or a conversation with the devil?
[00:49:24] Nicole: that's a really good question.
[00:49:27] Jolene: Thank you.
[00:49:29] Nicole: My first instinct was to say the devil
[00:49:35] Nicole: because I'm sort of,
[00:49:36] Nicole: because I'm curious if, here's the thing,
[00:49:40] Nicole: this might, this might cancel me with the believers that listen to our podcast. I don't know if I believe in God and I don't believe in the devil. So there's that for me, for me,
[00:49:52] Jolene: Okay.
[00:49:53] Nicole: of the devil, I think of South Park. Like it immediately, like that's my brain. Like [00:50:00] I just don't believe in that. So, but I think that would be very
[00:50:06] Nicole: curious to belie to, to talk to him. But I also think it would be really scary, uh,
[00:50:14] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:50:15] Nicole: ' cause if, if, if the devil is real, it's just like all the, all the darkest, ugliest, scariest parts of humanity. Is that, so I think I'm rethinking this because there was a book growing up, a little kid's book called TA for Tots that I loved so much and maybe it was a California book, but I actually own one now. I'll put that in the show notes. And it talked, it taught kids about feelings and the, the good feelings were the, these little orange furry round things called the warm fuzzies. And the bad [00:51:00] feelings were these blue spiky things called the cold prickly. And so I'm thinking to myself that God is like a warm fuzzy, like if he really exists, like I wanna hang out with the warm fuzzy and talk to him
[00:51:15] Nicole: or her,
[00:51:16] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:51:17] Nicole: whatever, non, non, non-gendered thing. So yeah, I'm gonna go there. 'cause Okay. The devil scares me, even though I don't believe him.
[00:51:27] Jolene: Yeah. Okay,
[00:51:28] Nicole: Would you rather visit the International Space Station for a week or spend a week in a hotel at the bottom of the ocean?
[00:51:43] Jolene: Oh, the ocean actually scares me.
[00:51:48] Jolene: Because I think there's so much unexplored. Mm-hmm. I, we've explored space more than we have
[00:51:56] Jolene: the
[00:51:57] Nicole: Isn't that
[00:51:57] Nicole: true? It's wild. I [00:52:00]
[00:52:00] Jolene: Yeah. I think you better put me up in space.
[00:52:03] Nicole: Can you imagine? You're like, Oh gosh. I mean, that, that makes me scared. Do I get to take my phone?
[00:52:12] Nicole: hell
[00:52:12] Jolene: now if I am at the bottom of the ocean without my phone, now I'm having a huge anxiety attack.
[00:52:18] Nicole: No phones. No phones on this adventure.
[00:52:21] Jolene: I would have to spend the entire time in prayer 'cause I would be just
[00:52:25] Nicole: Up, up, up. Uptown. Uptown in space or downtown in the ocean.
[00:52:30] Jolene: Oh, I mean, actually, no, gosh. Down in the ocean. Ew. No, but I'm gonna into space so I don't have to worry about it.
[00:52:38] Nicole: Maybe it'll be closer to God up
[00:52:39] Nicole: there.
[00:52:39] Jolene: would be awesome, right?
[00:52:42] Nicole: I don't know. I
[00:52:43] Jolene: exactly. where are the other planets that you created? I mean, how much more did you create that We don't even, that we can't even fathom,
[00:52:52] Nicole: I love it.
[00:52:53] Nicole: well, thank you for this celestial conversation, dear.
[00:52:59] Jolene: [00:53:00] This was good. Oh, I hope that we can dive into, I hope this is a conversation that, um, that we've just hit on the very beginning of it, and this is gonna be part of our, um, that, that we're having, we're diving into this and, and more and more research will be done on it. 'cause I think it's, man, it sounds like it's super important.
[00:53:22] Nicole: And I also think it's really important that we've not been afraid to talk about this stuff ' cause it religion is a hot button and people are, have a lot of preconceived notions about it and anxieties about it, and beliefs about it. And I love that you were open enough to have this conversation with me, to share your experience and to be open to my experience that isn't yours and still, but you were curious about it
[00:53:55] Nicole: and I really appreciate that.
[00:53:56] Nicole: I really do. So thank
[00:53:58] Jolene: Oh, [00:54:00] no, I completely agree. Thank you.
[00:54:03] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:54:04] Jolene: Thank you, friend, then Thank you, listener. Thank you for, for being, um, a part of our questions and answers. And please give us, um, a thumbs up and please subscribe where you can and share it with a friend. Maybe there's somebody who needs to hear this, somebody that might be struggling as well and needs to hear that maybe some prayer or meditation is something that, should not be overlooked.
[00:54:29] Nicole: Yes. Yeah. Get curious, y'all.
