What Every Woman Needs to Know About Menopause and HRT
Menopause is a natural life transition that half the population will experience, yet somehow it remains medicine's best-kept secret.
I (Nicole) spent months getting shuffled between specialists, each one treating individual symptoms without connecting the obvious dots. Itchy skin? See a dermatologist. Mood changes? Try therapy. Bone loss? Take calcium supplements.
Each doctor had a different diagnosis. None of them mentioned menopause.
Then came the osteoporosis diagnosis, and suddenly everything clicked. But it shouldn't have taken a bone density scan to get answers about something as predictable as menopause.
Today we're talking about why women's health care is broken, how hormone replacement therapy changed everything, and why the medical establishment would rather prescribe antidepressants than admit they don't understand women's bodies.
Women typically see six to eight different doctors before getting proper menopause treatment. Six to eight! We're not talking about rare diseases here. We're talking about a biological process that happens to literally half the human population.
When doctors failed me, I turned to Dr. Mark Hyman and started doing my own research. This shouldn't be necessary, but here we are. What I discovered was infuriating: there are actually tons of studies on menopause and hormone replacement therapy, but most doctors either don't know about it or don't take it seriously.
The medical establishment has been treating menopause like a minor inconvenience rather than a major life transition that affects everything from bone density to cardiovascular health to brain function. Meanwhile, women are suffering in silence, thinking hot flashes and mood swings are just something we have to endure.
Jolene asked two friends if they were taking anything for their menopause symptoms. Both said no, despite dealing with classic signs like sleep disruption, mood changes, and physical discomfort. They figured it was just part of getting older and what all women have to go through.
This is exactly the problem. We've normalized women's suffering to the point where we don't even seek treatment for treatable symptoms. We've been conditioned to believe that feeling terrible is just part of being a woman over 50.
Hormone replacement therapy isn't just about treating hot flashes - it's about supporting your body through a major biological transition and preventing the cascade of health problems that happen when estrogen, testosterone and progesterone levels plummet. We're talking about bone loss, muscle mass decline, cardiovascular changes, and cognitive effects that can dramatically impact quality of life.
The fear-mongering around HRT, largely based on flawed studies from decades ago, has left women choosing between suffering through menopause or risking their health. Meanwhile, updated research shows that for most women, the benefits of HRT far outweigh the risks, especially when started during the menopause transition.
If you're thinking it's too late for you because you're in your late fifties or sixties, that's another myth we need to bust. Hormone replacement therapy benefits extend far beyond menopause symptoms. It's crucial for maintaining bone density, muscle mass, and preventing the kind of frailty that leads to falls and fractures in older women.
The real tragedy isn't just that women suffer unnecessarily, it's that we're not preparing the next generation. Our daughters and younger friends are heading toward menopause with the same lack of information and medical support that we experienced. We don’t want to perpetuate a cycle of ignorance and suffering.
But over the last few years, it’s clear the conversation is finally starting to shift. More women are sharing their stories, more doctors are getting educated, and more research is being conducted. But we can't wait for the medical establishment to catch up. We need to have these conversations now, share our experiences, and demand better care.
If you're experiencing unexplained symptoms, ask about menopause. If your doctor dismisses your concerns, find another doctor. If you're suffering in silence, start talking. Your health is too important to leave to chance or outdated medical attitudes.
Menopause isn't a disease to be cured - it's a life transition that deserves proper medical support. The fact that we're still fighting for basic acknowledgment of our experiences in 2025 is absurd, but here we are. Let's make sure the women coming after us don't have to fight the same battles.
DISCLAIMER:
While we make every effort to make sure the information in this podcast/article is accurate and informative, the information does not take the place of professional or medical advice.
Do not use our information:
to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease
for therapeutic purposes
as a substitute for the advice of a health professional.
We do not accept any liability for any injury, loss or damage caused by use of the information provided in our podcast.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Dr. Mary Claire Haver (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/drmaryclaire/?hl=en
Dr. Mary Claire Haver on Armchair Expert: https://armchairexpertpod.com/pods/mary-claire-haver
The Dr. Hyman Show Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dr-hyman-show/id1382804627
North American Menopause Society: https://menopause.org/
Dr. Adrienne Simone: https://dradriennesimone.com/
Dr. Amy Grace (Tulane): https://medicine.tulane.edu/departments/obstetrics-gynecology/faculty/amy-grace-md
Dr. Vonda Wright (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/drvondawright/?hl=en
Dr. Kelly Casperson (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/kellycaspersonmd/?hl=en
Midlife Private Parts: https://www.midlifeprivateparts.com/
Video Content:
YouTube Live Stream: https://www.youtube.com/live/_2ZRlOivC5M?si=FtyFdcBwX2eoPeQl
Dr Mary Claire on Katie Couric: https://youtu.be/lkDNlXHzD2M?si=BWNBIamLD0d1NJ_n
Dr Mary Claire on Mel Robbins: https://youtu.be/ReFZ__ZeSEQ?si=YNrZHvY6b8CXh03t
Dr Mary Claire on Diary of A CEO: https://youtu.be/oQqcnYcKx68?si=piv1uHAb4WxAEdhJ
Other: Hitster Game:https://hitstergame.com/en-us/
LINKS:
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[00:00:00] Nicole: She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money. And we say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud.
[00:00:18] Nicole: Hello, Jolene.
[00:00:20] Jolene: Hello. Nicole and I are talking about menopause today.
[00:00:23] Nicole: Yes. Menopause and perimenopause and all the menopausal things.
[00:00:29] Jolene: and please, if you're a man, this is absolutely for you, actually for, I think for a couple of reasons. Number one. my friends that were here and their husbands gave us their 2 cents worth as well, because they're like, okay, this is how your menopause affects me.
[00:00:46] Jolene: And so for any man who has a woman in their life, could be your sister or your mother, or a woman that you work
[00:00:54] Nicole: daughter.
[00:00:54] Jolene: or your daughter, or if you just know a woman, maybe she's your neighbor and you could talk to her about [00:01:00] menopause. I'm teasing.
[00:01:00] Nicole: And also men go through hormonal changes too,
[00:01:03] Nicole: so.
[00:01:03] Jolene: And how the what, let's talk about the differences between those things.
[00:01:08] Jolene: So, so not so much on the political spectrum, but really just about something that we've got to talk about.
[00:01:14] Nicole: to bring politics in for a second,
[00:01:16] Jolene: so Jolene, you sent me this incredibly amazing YouTube, video. It was a meeting on July 17th, the new FDA. with a panel of experts, menopausal experts. It's a two hour, video. We will put it in the show notes. I've watched it almost two times. It was so inspiring.
[00:01:46] Nicole: It was so thrilling. I was like, oh my God, we're gonna be okay. And our daughters and our nieces are really going to be okay. And I'm bringing it up in a political way because I am going to [00:02:00] give your party a shout out
[00:02:02] Jolene: Go
[00:02:03] Nicole: because this guy
[00:02:04] Nicole: Dr. Marty McCarey, is the, the new head of the FDA. He was sworn in in March. So he is a Trump appointee and he is incredibly impressive and he is adamant about learning about this, topic, which has not been, addressed since the WHI, study
[00:02:32] Jolene: July 9th, 2002, there was a Woman's health initiative study that came out saying that hormone replacement therapy caused breast cancer. And all of a sudden it was hard stop. People started throwing their drugs away. they stopped the education of menopause and hormone replacement.
[00:02:53] Nicole: And it just sort of like the, as one of the panelists said, the day the music died.
[00:02:57] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:02:58] Nicole: Right. I also wanna [00:03:00] give a quick shout out the other, the deputy, the assistant deputy Dr. Sarah Brenner. Do you know where she went to medical school?
[00:03:09] Jolene: Did she go to University of Iowa?
[00:03:11] Nicole: Yes, she did.
[00:03:12] Jolene: She did. I did not know that. Oh, that's awesome.
[00:03:17] Nicole: is awesome. I mean, she's done, they're both like wildly educated and this panel, did you get a chance to, to God, it's like a plethora of information.
[00:03:29] Nicole: I mean, we will put this in the show notes because I can't How much did you learn?
[00:03:34] Jolene: Okay. But you know what was interesting the format was fantastic because everybody had five minutes. Like you weren't, there was no fluff, there was no introductions. It was like, go, you got five minutes.
[00:03:45] Jolene: And, so I
[00:03:47] Nicole: an internist, they had a neurologist, a cardiologist. I mean, you name it.
[00:03:53] Jolene: okay now, can I go back to what you said about, you gave a shout out to the FDAI will say, and this is one of the [00:04:00] things that, we both follow Dr. Mary Claire Haber. one of the things that she talked about in her Instagram post was, let's not make this political. yes, it happened now under the Trump administration, but this is stuff that has been in the works for years by these people who have been working since 2002 to really get the facts out there.
[00:04:21] Jolene: So the fact that it came to fruition right now is fantastic and, you know, thank you Dr. McCarey for doing it.
[00:04:30] Nicole: however, you know, this has been stuff that's been in the works for years, so,
[00:04:34] Nicole: because, because Jolene like, I didn't see that. Dr. Mary Claire Aver, which will put her her information in the show notes as well. She's a menopause that doctor, and that's like her passion and, You had talked about this post and I couldn't find it, and then you sent me this, and I only bring it up as a political thing because I had my own bias when I first started it and saw it's [00:05:00] FDA, this is the Trump administration, I was like, Hmm,
[00:05:04] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:05:05] Nicole: gonna be like?
[00:05:06] Nicole: And all of a sudden within, I don't know, 30 seconds, I was like, what's happening here? This is so awesome.
[00:05:15] Jolene: Which is so funny too, because this is kind of the opposite of our big pharma conversation or our big food conversation that, you know, where we talked about big pharma and all that. So now, I mean, for as much as we were criticizing big pharma in that episode and how they drive so much policy that's being, written and turned into laws that now we're actually advocating for it.
[00:05:44] Jolene: And, and so it's, it's just another reason that we're, we've got to talk about the things that are good and, and the bad.
[00:05:52] Nicole: yes
[00:05:52] Nicole: and
[00:05:53] Nicole: things that they're trying to change And remedy, right? one of the doctors mentioned, he was a professor [00:06:00] and he spoke very slowly like a professor, remember him. And one, I think I, I appreciated because the common theme is there's this black box label that they have this warning that they've put on low dose vaginal estrogen that helps with UTIs.
[00:06:15] Nicole: I mean, it helps with basically everything. And they have this black box warning that says it causes all of these cancers and dementia and Alzheimer's, and none of this is true.
[00:06:28] Nicole: And so they are begging the FDA to take this label off. And one thing that I thought was really interesting, Jolene, with the professor's point, he said, please be consistent with every, he's like, I understand this is a really difficult job.
[00:06:43] Nicole: There's so many drugs, and this is where the big pharma part comes in. Like, leave the business to the business and put the labels on. All the products, not the ones that you side with
[00:06:57] Jolene: Let, like, let the marketing part of that be the [00:07:00] business part of it. Let, let's just look at the facts and, and deal and be equitable on all items. it's interesting too that you've had mostly women on this panel, but a few men, but that all of the information that is out there now.
[00:07:17] Jolene: That women can benefit. I mean, this is the, the takeaway is that women can absolutely benefit from hormonal therapy. So that means estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. and that there are not the risks that we've all been told. and again, this is why we're talking about it, because we've got to advocate for ourselves.
[00:07:41] Jolene: And we can't just let a doctor or a pharmacist or the FDA or, world Health Organization, I mean, you know, whatever it is. do the research yourself and have these conversations with your doctor. And so whether it's to, you know, hormone therapy, to make [00:08:00] things better or whatever it is.
[00:08:02] Nicole: Well, it's interesting too because they made it really clear that education needs to improve because, 30% of residencies actually teach any menopause, and they usually get an hour. An hour of menopausal training when, there's like a third of us are menopausal,
[00:08:25] Nicole: Everything is focused on baby and delivery and there's no education. So part of it is also like, it's not your fault if you don't feel right and you go to your doctor and your doctor dismisses you. there are not enough RNs, PAs, pharmacists, doctors that are medically trained in menopause to understand.
[00:08:50] Nicole: I'm a broken record as already on this podcast talking about my journey with my osteoporosis diagnosis and how. There's one of the [00:09:00] good for the souls, I have so many today, but one of them I just listened to a Dr. Mary Claire Aver episode. She's a guest on Dak Shepherd's armchair, therapist. And I'm not really familiar with, I've seen, I've heard 'em a little bit, but I just did it like a quick Google today, like what's the latest one that she's done?
[00:09:20] Nicole: And that looked like it was the latest, 'cause I've heard her a bazillion times. But that particular episode was chockfull of really amazing information. And one of the things she said is, most women go to six to eight doctors. And that was me before I was actually put on HRT and I think back that I started, like I I had really itchy skin and eczema on my eyes and I would go to my dermatologist, oh, take a steroid, what?
[00:09:50] Nicole: And I didn't take it. I was like, I don't wanna put a steroid on my eyes. Like, you know, and then it was, you know, whether it was the gynecologist and then the endocrinologist, and then the [00:10:00] rheumatologist, and you're like, what's going on? And so when I did my own deep dive at that time, I found Dr.
[00:10:07] Nicole: Mark Hyman. And that was just 2022, three, like two years ago. It's exploded in the last, like two years. So that now women really have a chance to do some serious deep diving and be heard, not be dismissed. Your heart palpitations are something your brain fog is something the hot flash with is about your, is about brain, like brain heat.
[00:10:36] Jolene: I think we have so much to talk about that. I think the bottom line is if you've, and this is the conversation that I had with my friends this weekend when I said, are you taking anything? And both of them were like, no. And I said, do you have these issues? And they're like, well, yeah.
[00:10:51] Jolene: they must be having them for a long time. 'cause they're 56 years old. Right? Because this is the crucial time to start, they're
[00:10:57] Nicole: saying.
[00:10:58] Jolene: I hope the thought [00:11:00] that, it's too late for me. is not, the overwhelming, thought when you hear if you're in your late fifties or early sixties, because the benefit of estrogen, even as we get older, in the 70 and 80 year olds just for your bone health, and that, if you take a look at the reason.
[00:11:17] Jolene: That women die. as a woman gets older she loses muscle mass and bone density. and so if she were to fall, then that recovery from, a broken hip or she has to have a hip replacement. I mean, that's, those are the situations where women then start to really decline.
[00:11:37] Jolene: And if you are strong and, the, the muscle health is so important and bone density is so important that these things can be avoided to begin with. by taking hormone replacement therapy
[00:11:50] Nicole: they're sort of right now in the sweet spot because they kept saying that it's really important between 50 and 59 to start using it. That, and one of the reasons that that [00:12:00] 2002 study isn't valid. First of all, they use different hormones, number one. And not all hormones are the same as Dr.
[00:12:07] Nicole: Barbara Levy said in this talk. that they were looking at cardiac health and the youngest person was 63. when you start within 10 years of your menopausal beginnings, that that's the most benefit. Not, and also I, I definitely wanna talk about testosterone. I take it, I go to, I have use a compound pharmacist and the stigma around it that there is not one FDA approved.
[00:12:37] Nicole: Uh, testosterone for women. They're all for men, and it's attached to libido, which yeah, it has some effect, but it's more for like strength and like core strength and helping you dealing with balance and all of the things that could possibly happen to you.
[00:12:58] Jolene: How about, the one doctor [00:13:00] that was talking about the study that was done with, working women
[00:13:05] Nicole: oh, I loved that.
[00:13:06] Jolene: I know
[00:13:07] Nicole: I loved that
[00:13:08] Jolene: in their fifties and sixties who, they did a
[00:13:11] Nicole: Fortune 500 women,
[00:13:13] Jolene: Yep. and how they benefited, like the, before any hormone replacement therapies. how many hot flashes did they have that, challenged the way that they could communicate with the people that they work with and, losing their cool, you know, having a temper tantrum and,
[00:13:30] Nicole: they couldn't remember
[00:13:31] Jolene: and couldn't remember, right.
[00:13:33] Jolene: There was a banker who couldn't remember her board members' names and you're like, oh my God. Like I could totally relate to
[00:13:40] Nicole: gonna quit
[00:13:41] Jolene: She was
[00:13:41] Jolene: going to quit her job as a successful working woman
[00:13:47] Nicole: Yeah. And I, I've written this down, like it was a Yale study. They put, these women on, on the hormones, and within six months it dropped dramatically.
[00:13:56] Jolene: because they put women, they put another group on placebo, so there were women [00:14:00] who were taking a drug and then the other group had a placebo, so nobody knew who was
[00:14:04] Nicole: That's right. And the ones that were without HRT, they had 1.5 million more medical visits and they spent $400 million in the medical system because they weren't on therapy. No. Part of me is like, well, maybe that's, now I'm turning into you. Maybe it's a plot.
[00:14:32] Jolene: My conspiracy theories have gotten to you. No, it just, I think the, the, the bottom line here is the importance of HRT and bone health, brain health, physical health, sexual health. I mean, if you're a man listening to this and your partner has zero sex drive, now she needs hormone replacement
[00:14:57] Nicole: That's right. that being said, [00:15:00] not everyone is different. Right. And, there aren't enough doctors. So they talked about if you're looking, you can go, I think it's called me menopause.org. And it shows, physicians that have been trained in menopausal training.
[00:15:17] Nicole: They're not, as Dr. Mary Claire said, they're not all fantastic. So you really need to, it's really important. I mean, I've said this before, and like caring for my dad, which is a very different story, but one thing that I keep learning is it's really important to advocate for yourself. Really check in with yourself.
[00:15:38] Nicole: What feels right for you. What feels right for Nicole. Might not feel right for Jolene, might not feel right, you know, we're all chemistry experiments, trying to figure out what we're comfortable with. And quite frankly, a lot of this stuff is not covered by insurance.
[00:15:52] Nicole: So of course, again, it definitely affects poor people who can't afford any of this.
[00:15:58] Jolene: [00:16:00] Yep. my friend that was here this weekend as a nurse, and
[00:16:03] Nicole: Oh, that's interesting. And she's not on HRT.
[00:16:05] Jolene: yeah. How about that? Right.
[00:16:07] Nicole: Fascinating.
[00:16:08] Jolene: Well, I, and I think because nurses. Care for other people, much more than they care for themselves. So, you know, she's so focused. She's a NICU nurse, so she's focused on these tiny little sweet babies.
[00:16:20] Jolene: but she says the healthcare system is just so horrible right now that there are no nurses and doctors working in the hospitals and ERs are holding patients for days
[00:16:32] Nicole: Is that from COVID? Like when people, quit.
[00:16:36] Jolene: Yeah. and it just, that it's not getting better. And that is such a crisis that, you know, as we are talking about, you know, go find a doctor. If you can't find one on this block, go to the next block. 'cause you'll find a doctor who can
[00:16:49] Jolene: help you and it's not happening. So I do, does that make you wonder if the whole telehealth,
[00:16:56] Jolene: Of our society now and our healthcare will [00:17:00] really kind of flourish because you're like, okay, I wanna find somebody who can
[00:17:04] Nicole: That's so interesting, Jolene, that you said that because in the Dak Shepherd episode that I'll put in the show notes, Dr. Mary Claire talks about that, that through that there are telehealth systems now that are being created that are really helping women.
[00:17:18] Nicole:
[00:17:18] Nicole: why have your friends not sought any help?
[00:17:23] Jolene: I think because we as women think that this is part of the normal aging process, that we're just gonna lose our sex drive and we're going to have hot flashes, and we're gonna get moody, and we're going to, you know, forget things. I mean, I think we've been told for so long, this is normal and there's nothing like, just welcome to getting old
[00:17:45] Nicole: just suck it up. So, where Dr. Mary Claire, in her millions of interviews that I have listened to in her residency, there's this thing called, oh, it's another ww, another whiny woman.
[00:17:59] Jolene: [00:18:00] Oh
[00:18:00] Nicole: Whiny woman syndrome. And then she was explaining in this Dak Shepherd one that it's regional, like the West coast calls it something else, and the East coast calls it something else. And look, Miami calls it like Madame Dolores, which is like someone that's in a lot of pain or something like that.
[00:18:16] Nicole: And this woman is like, I am like, I wanna have sex. I'm in so much pain, I don't know what to do. And she's like, one minute please. And she goes down the hall to her attending and she's like, what do I do? And he's like, just tell her to drink a glass of wine.
[00:18:32] Jolene: Oh
[00:18:32] Nicole: Where that's sort of like, you know what, ladies get over it.
[00:18:38] Nicole: And one of the reasons is just there's no education. No one's been, women have not been studied enough. Like she was even explaining that. female rats are not studied. They study everything. It's male rats,
[00:18:51] Jolene: rats. Oh my gosh.
[00:18:53] Nicole: so. So of course we're here.
[00:18:56] Jolene: right. Like we haven't been, I mean, you and I have been able to [00:19:00] talk about it in the last six months, but I don't think we really, I mean, I don't know that we've really been in tuned with like, this is okay to talk about and oh my gosh, you're having the same things that I've experienced. This isn't just a me issue.
[00:19:16] Jolene: It's, it's a, it's, everybody is experiencing this. And so I think by, by talking about it now, we're finally, you know, putting, shedding some light on and going, no, go get help. You deserve better. You deserve to be healthy. You deserve to have, I mean, didn't he talk about also one of the, the panelists had talked about, you know, 50,000 women have died in just the last four years.
[00:19:43] Jolene: Unnecessarily because they didn't have HRT and it was a study that they did with, you know, had these women had, some type of hormone replacement therapy that they would have not developed the heart disease or the cardiovascular disease or the, you know, and I, and
[00:19:59] Nicole: Or the, [00:20:00] the A, the a LS, the dementia, the Alzheimer's, I mean, all, there's, there's all that long term help. But then the short term term help,
[00:20:09] Nicole: the cognition,
[00:20:10] Nicole: the memory, hot flashes, all of it. Night sweats.
[00:20:14] Jolene: So I think for so many of us, we've always thought that, oh, we just have to endure it, that it's just a little discomfort. But now there's substantial evidence that no, it is related to Alzheimer's and heart disease and bone health. I mean, things that are truly are important. Not just, oh, I don't wanna have sex anymore,
[00:20:31] Jolene: you know, or I can't deal with a hot
[00:20:33] Jolene: flash. It's serious.
[00:20:36] Jolene: So.
[00:20:37] Nicole: I do remember when I preparing for this, I was thinking about just my own experience with it and remembering I love my gynecologist. shout out to Dr. Adrian Simone in New York City.
[00:20:50] Nicole: she's the best. she, she was like, it was fairly early on, like, are you having pain when you're having sex? And I was like, no. [00:21:00] And are you dry? And I'm like, I don't know. And she's like, do you wanna go on HRT? And this was years ago. And I said, no, because I re because that study hadn't been debunked yet.
[00:21:11] Nicole: And in one of my many rent jobs as a poor actor, I worked at a gynecologist office in the nineties on the Upper East Side with these male doctors who loved giving hysterectomies, no joke, like it was a whole thing. So that was my memory of like, I'd get these old women calling. crying about the hormones they were on.
[00:21:34] Nicole: So I had this whole other experience where I was like, I don't want that for myself. I had my own bone stuff that she was like, something's going on. Nicole. And I, shout out to her because she was like, let's take a look at this. and so originally I started the HRT because of osteoporosis.
[00:21:53] Nicole: It doesn't matter that for five years I've been night sweating and. hot flashes and heart [00:22:00] palpitations. I didn't know that either. 'and it would always happen in the subway. Like, I would be like, Ugh, am I having a heart attack? Like, I didn't understand what was going on. But then it was like, you got this, Nicole, like, you're
[00:22:12] Nicole: fine.
[00:22:13] Nicole: Instead of like, wait a second. And even when I would say, Hey, I think this is happening, no one had an answer.
[00:22:20] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:22:21] Nicole: what was your experience? Jolene.
[00:22:23] Jolene: Yes. I loved my doctor in New Orleans. Dr. Amy Grace. and she was just, she's so blunt and just like, no nonsense, and let's get it, girl, get in here. let's figure it out. and was like, here's what we're gonna do. And I, and I remember at, when she first wanted to put me on hormones, and I remember going, oh, aren't there, aren't there some side effects that causes cancer?
[00:22:45] Jolene: And she goes, Nope. That study was a, it was not randomized. And she went through all of the, and this was, gosh, I mean, this was six or seven years ago, and she debunked, she went through
[00:22:55] Nicole: So you were on the, you've, you've been, you've been on it a while.
[00:22:59] Jolene: yeah. [00:23:00] then when we moved to Arkansas, I said, I just kind of wanna give my body a break. I'm not so sure if I wanna be on hormones forever, and I, I wonder if I should just wean myself off. And so I went off of them for about three months and then, absolutely went crazy.
[00:23:16] Jolene: Like, I am like, Nope. Having hot flashes again, like the memory thing, the mood swings. Jeff would say, what do you want for dinner? And I'm like, what a stupid question. I mean, just totally attacking him and I'm like, God, I was so mean to him last night. Why? Why was I like that?
[00:23:31] Jolene: And so I finally, when I went then to male doctors in Fayetteville. And he goes, there's absolutely no reason for you to go off of those. And I said, shouldn't you be on 'em for just a short amount of time? And he goes, we are not gonna take you out until at least 60, and then we'll talk about it.
[00:23:48] Jolene: And he said, I'm telling you, there's so much data now around it, so you know, thank goodness.
[00:23:53] Jolene: Well, and also Jolene, just for, I don't know if you remember hearing this in the panel discussion that [00:24:00] PE women that go on HRT are 25 to 50%, there's a reduction in cardiac disease and that when you stop that there's a 25% increase in a heart attack Wow.
[00:24:13] Nicole: Okay, can I take this a step
[00:24:14] Nicole: Please take it.
[00:24:16] Jolene: I hope then that there is this intensive study on the importance of hormones and whether it's men or women. I think we've kind of touched on the men and, you know, men for, I think it's been such a common thing to talk about low testosterone for men, um, and
[00:24:34] Nicole: it's called
[00:24:34] Nicole: Hypergonadism. Is that what she said?
[00:24:37] Jolene: yep.
[00:24:38] Jolene: for men it happens at such a much gradual rate. I mean, for women it's stopping your period. I mean,
[00:24:44] Nicole: It also starts younger for us than it does for them.
[00:24:47] Nicole: Younger and dramatic.
[00:24:49] Jolene: Whereas, you know, it, it kind of happens gradually for men and they're like, oh, I'm fatigued, or I, I, I wrote down all of the, the symptoms for men.
[00:24:59] Jolene: So in case [00:25:00] your irritability, depression, decreased sex drive, low loss of muscle mass, increased fat, memory issues, sleep problems, all related to low testosterone. So, and again, men I think, think, I'm sure there are a lot of men who just think that's part of the aging process and know if you can get help and it is beneficial and if it shows an improvement in your sleep.
[00:25:27] Jolene: how many studies have been done recently about the importance of sleep and how that relates to your brain function and how you perform at work, or how you parent, or how you, study that is so important. And if that is part of HRT for men and women, like what a huge improvement that makes right there.
[00:25:50] Nicole: And it helps obviously with musculature and bone health and all the things that they're seeing that, or they're trying [00:26:00] to, change how frail we have become. The older we get that they are seeing with studies with hormone replacement that people don't need canes, they don't need walkers. I mean, and then you're not pumping more money into the medical system.
[00:26:15] Nicole: You're staying well, which is I think what we all want.
[00:26:20] Jolene: Okay. so as we then talk about the importance of hormones for both men and women, I hope this also helps us shed some light on puberty and when kids are going through puberty, how their brains are just, they're these little beings that are trying to figure out the world. And then you throw in.
[00:26:45] Jolene: You know, what the same issues that we're having in menopause and can handle it as adults. Think of how that's affecting our kids as they go through puberty and they're trying to, their brain functioning and sleeping and,
[00:26:59] Nicole: I mean, kids, [00:27:00] kids aren't getting enough sleep,
[00:27:01] Jolene: Right. are read a crossroads when we go through, when kids go through puberty, puberty of.
[00:27:08] Jolene: Being accepted or going down a path of God. I just, I have anxiety and I'm not accepted and I look weird and I feel weird and everybody thinks I'm weird and I'm gonna, color my hair blue. And I, all the things that I just think were so hard on these kids and they're really just trying to figure it out because of, because they're hormonal.
[00:27:30] Nicole: YI mean, yes. Yes. And I think, we we're, as a society, we're really good at dismissing each other. We're really good at not addressing someone's pain
[00:27:42] Nicole: and one of the things in terms of, the menopause discussion, Dr. Mary Claire was talking about how women 45 to 55 have the highest suicide rates.
[00:27:55]
[00:27:55] Nicole: Because their hormones are out of balance, right? They don't [00:28:00] feel good in their bodies. We have a society where we're anti-age that we don't honor getting older. We don't honor the wisdom that comes with that. It's all about preserving a time that, like we talked about, we started to talk about it in last week's episode where you were like, I've never felt better.
[00:28:24] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:28:25] Nicole: And I said, like, I haven't either. I have never been stronger. I have never been more fit. But does it look like it? No, but I know that it's true. Do I struggle with that? Do I look at myself in the mirror sometimes and I'm like, who the f, what the fuck? Like who's this body? What happened? all I'm doing is trying to take care of myself.
[00:28:47] Nicole: And why can't I just honor and love myself That's all I want, and that's all I want for you. And that's all I want for all the women and all the men. and like you're talking [00:29:00] about the kids. we're really all these sort of like just bumping up against each other. Insecure. I don't know who I am, what I'm doing, what I want. That doesn't really change.
[00:29:14] Jolene: Right. But as I try to look at this from a larger perspective and we talk about, hormonal health, it scares me to death if we start talking about transgender
[00:29:29] Nicole: Oh, I was hoping you would not go down this path.
[00:29:32] Nicole: I really wanna stick to menopause.
[00:29:34] Nicole: I hear what you're saying.
[00:29:36] Nicole: And I knew as soon as you started bringing up kids, I was like, oh my God, please.
[00:29:41] Jolene: here's my concern. I think that we're finally honing in on hormones, like we're finally figuring this out, that it's in a really important, Aspect of our lives and of our bodies mentally and physically. And [00:30:00] so I think at some point we've got to look at that then, and I say this because I've had, a family member who's going through it.
[00:30:10] Jolene: is that part not being talked about enough in the transformation.
[00:30:16] Nicole: I don't, I mean, I don't know. I've obviously not been in those rooms. I mean, it struck me on the panel discussion
[00:30:23] Jolene: Dr. Kelly Casperson, where she was talking about how the reason that women don't have a, FDA approved testosterone is because they're claiming that they, there's not been enough tests on the safety of it, I mean, the trans issue, Jolene is so delicate and it is such a tiny percent of the country.
[00:30:50] Nicole: And I feel like, I think one of the reasons I reacted, and I apologize if that was, I didn't mean to be rude to you, but I, you [00:31:00] know, as liberals we are, we have been, I feel like it's been very clear that the woke thing has really turned all of you off.
[00:31:10] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:31:11] Nicole: That the trans thing was such a huge thing in our campaign and that we, now, I'm just gonna speak for me.
[00:31:19] Nicole: I'm aware of it and aware of how small of a group of people it is and I'm also aware of how delicate it is. I do have a friend who's child is doing that. I have a friend, another friend whose child was going to and then didn't like, it's such a delicate, I know. I went, we all went through puberty and how confusing it is and I couldn't bear, I couldn't even imagine what it's like to feel like I'm in the wrong body.
[00:31:49] Jolene: I don't know what it's like. And so I really understand why you brought this up because it makes sense 'cause we're talking about hormones and how. [00:32:00] They fluctuate and they fluctuate the most during puberty and during menopause. Right. I get the correlation. I did not mean to shut you down. I just was worried that, That I would get on my soapbox and
[00:32:14] Jolene: talk about, try
[00:32:15] Jolene: to take this and hijack it into a trans conversation.
[00:32:19] Nicole: not just that, but also like I feel really passionate about women being heard.
[00:32:25] Nicole: let's stay here and give women information that these symptoms that you're having, you can do something about it. there are resources for you and for your husband's, brothers.
[00:32:40] Nicole: if, if
[00:32:41] Nicole: anyone loves a woman, as a friend, as a lover, as a mother, as a sister, you can help this human being and not to discount men's issues. But you guys already have FDA approved issue, uh, medicines that we don't. And so some people aren't comfortable taking [00:33:00] something that isn't FDA approved.
[00:33:01] Nicole: I go to a compound pharmacist. it's all very safe, but to figure out how to take care of myself.
[00:33:07] Jolene: so can I just go back and say, the only reason that I wanted to to bring it up is, is I would agree with you that it is a small population that we're talking about, but it's becoming more and more prevalent and just from the conversations that I've had with my family member who is transitioning long-term effects.
[00:33:28] Jolene: is not something that, they were initially, was part of the, the conversation. And it concerns me from, as you said, if it's, if it's a child who's making that choice, I think they're going through, I, I, I just, I wanna make the point that puberty is so hard that, not even talking about it from a trans point of view, just
[00:33:50] Nicole: you're talking about it hormonally?
[00:33:52] Jolene: Right. And that, we're trying to associate so much of the anxiety that our kids are having [00:34:00] now and depression and, you know, all of this, the things that they're going through. and I know we blame it on cell phones and social media and But I think we've dismissed the importance of hormones and what they're physiologically going through, and how we've got to take that into consideration as the onset of being an adult and the hormones that are suddenly being developed in their body just as much as on the other end of the spectrum when we're going through menopause and how those hormones are leaving our bodies.
[00:34:33] Jolene: mean, I think it's a totally valid point, Jolene. I think you're absolutely right and I think it's, I mean, it's an issue that terrifies me to talk about honestly. In a lot of ways. I agree with you that, I don't know what the process is. I would assume there's a lot of counseling. I don't know.
[00:34:52] Nicole: Maybe in some ways, maybe sometimes there is and isn't, I don't know. your hormones do crazy things [00:35:00] and you think a lot of things and you have, suicidal ideation. you have all kinds of things happening as a teenager and as a menopausal woman. I mean, I think, I think honestly it's great that you brought this up 'cause we're looking at it in a very different way.
[00:35:17] Nicole: I think I reacted 'cause I'm like, oh God. I think it is such a hot issue and having done, I'm assuming it will air by the time this airs. We did an episode where we watch each other's media for 10 days and I was kind of astounded at the amount of trans coverage there was in conservative media, which isn't that way in liberal media.
[00:35:42] Nicole: So I can also understand it's on your mind. cause they report on it a lot and I had no idea. I will just say this. I hope if someone, if a child is thinking about this, that they take into consideration [00:36:00] what these hormones are. And maybe, I mean, I really don't, I don't know enough about it.
[00:36:05] Jolene: Yeah. No, not at all. I mean, just from the conversations that I've
[00:36:10] Jolene: had if You've transitioned from, a woman into a man, but you've kept your uterus and your ovaries, you still have those hormones, so then you're gonna go through menopause and what does that look like for you?
[00:36:21] Jolene: And even though you've had this additional testosterone. that doesn't mean that it is completely wiped out your estrogen and progesterone. And if it has, is that healthy? then are you at risk for the brain health, the bone health, the outer, all the
[00:36:38] Nicole: I mean, I don't know if they've done any studies in that because it just, it seems like new science is what I'm guessing. They haven't done enough studies on, Biologically born women in general. So I don't know.
[00:36:51] Jolene: yeah. So I think this goes back to, I'm so glad that we are having the conversation that we're getting it out there, that it's okay to talk [00:37:00] about that. I mean, it is as important as, you know, cholesterol was to talk about heart health.
[00:37:05] Nicole: that was interesting. There was, there was something on the panel about how the decrease in, cardiac issues with HRT was higher than taking a statin
[00:37:19] Nicole: and that some of these people are on statin. I'm thinking about one friend in particular that years ago she went on a statin.
[00:37:25] Nicole: I'm thinking really? And thinking, I wonder, did she check her hormones?
[00:37:31] Jolene: Right, right. or sleeping pill. You know, how many of my friends are on sleeping
[00:37:36] Jolene: pills and the way to go
[00:37:38] Jolene: Right. Had they just been on progesterone, maybe they would not. And, you know, and have then having the brain fog the next day because you wake up groggy and so.
[00:37:50] Nicole: Do you find, like when you said that your girlfriends, they don't, you hadn't really talked about it in terms of your conservative friends or [00:38:00] conservative, network. something was It is sort of a taboo issue. I know. 'cause pro part of it is like, my friends are actors and yoga teachers and like, we talk about all this shit all the time.
[00:38:12] Nicole: So there was never, it was like, oh my God, a hot flash. Oh my God. Ah. we didn't necessarily know what to do about it, but we would talk about it.
[00:38:19] Jolene: I think, no, I think we've talked about these things, when you're close girlfriend, although I will, okay. So I will say with my two friends, one's liberal and one was conservative. That was here this weekend. So I mean, I can't really. I don't think that has a political Yeah.
[00:38:34] Jolene: Slant. I think it's, you know, how close are you to your girlfriends that you can have, open honest conversations and talk about things that are intimate or embarrassing or, whatever. So,
[00:38:44] Nicole: I think that's one thing that's positive about social media in terms of this subject is because now there's so much, information and people can be like, well, I follow Dr. Mary Claire, or I follow Dr. Vonda Wright. I mean the surgeon [00:39:00] just personally with the bone health. She, I loved her and how much she said, please, take the label off.
[00:39:08] Nicole: This is helps your bones. I don't wanna keep putting metal in people's bodies.
[00:39:15] Jolene: so the overriding thing on this panel, which again we'll put the video in the show notes, was that they all were like, please take the black box warning off. And so today this talk happened July 17th, so I googled. I was like, so are they gonna do something? And at this point, like the AI summary was like, it is clear, this is what everybody wants. And there was just a ton of, articles saying that, that all the experts are saying take it off so I'm sure bureaucracy, it's gonna take some time.
[00:39:53] Nicole: But I'm really curious. I'm just hoping that they listened.
[00:39:57] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:39:58] Nicole: '
[00:39:58] Jolene: but you've gotta think it's, it's [00:40:00] gotta be this trickle down effect, right? I mean, so now it's the education to all the, you know, how do you get this out to all of the doctors saying, okay, no longer are we abiding by this study, but all of these other studies that have been done that prove something different and, and getting that out to the doctors who then are getting out to the, to the public, unfortunately, and I, and I, I cringe when I say this, for as much as you and I are advocating for people to get on hormones, that I hope big pharma does not take advantage of this, and now they're going to create all of these miracle drugs and get on the bandwagon going see with, seeing the dollar signs and
[00:40:50] Nicole: Well, we're already seeing it like,
[00:40:52] Nicole: like people that are commercializing, they're taking advantage of this menopause awareness and the supplements and all the [00:41:00] things, and you really do have to do your research. and figure out what's right for you and what you can afford, quite frankly.
[00:41:08] Nicole: And, don't get sucked into the, it's hard not to, but like,
[00:41:13] Jolene: is that part of the conversation too, that then the insurance companies have got to get on board and say, this should be covered? This should be just as birth control is covered.
[00:41:25] Nicole: it would save them billions of dollars because it's helping all these people not have all these diseases that would then put them in the hospital.
[00:41:34] Jolene: So we're, I mean, we had these conversations around the GLP ones, you know, just simply having people lose weight would help so many other issues, but they're not making it affordable. So, again, are we just being, are we gonna be taken advantage of by big pharma and,
[00:41:53] Jolene: you know, I, I think that the answer is yes 'cause that's where we are. the only thing that we can combat that is to be [00:42:00] aware of it.
[00:42:00] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:42:01] Nicole: and I mean, I will say that it was exciting for once in my experience as of late to see something run by the government that seemed like it gave me some hope
[00:42:17] Nicole: that was very exciting that
[00:42:19] Nicole: Dr. Marty McCarey and Dr. Sarah Brenner, seemed to really want to learn and care and, that this was actually a government agency from what it looks like trying to do some good work.
[00:42:34] Nicole: we'll see what happens. We'll see what they do with it. I am hoping that people will hold them accountable.
[00:42:40] Nicole: I think that's part of it. And maybe it's our responsibility too, not to just be aware of big pharma, but maybe not get sucked into that once it becomes the bright and shiny thing to take.
[00:42:54] Jolene: yeah. We'll see in the next six months to a year, right. How this all [00:43:00] develops.
[00:43:00] Nicole: And also it's, because it's such a bureaucratic machine, how long does this take? I kept thinking about it as I was watching this video, like, okay, is the FDA, how long is this? Like, what does that mean? We'll take this into consideration
[00:43:17] Nicole: a year, five years, like what are we talking about here?
[00:43:21] Nicole: And there's, there was no real. answer. you were sort of watching the beginning of history of a possible new history
[00:43:27] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:43:28] Nicole: herstory, which is exciting.
[00:43:31] Jolene: story.
[00:43:31] Nicole: Herstory. these conversations are teaching me so much about, my own fears and my own control issues,
[00:43:44] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:43:44] Nicole: and you just teach me every day how to listen better and I really
[00:43:51] Jolene: Oh,
[00:43:52] Nicole: it.
[00:43:52] Jolene: that's sweet of you. But I think it's just important that you and I have a relationship where you can say, you feel comfortable to say things to me
[00:44:00] Jolene: and go, wait, I don't want to go there. but we can talk through it. And you're like, Okay. And
[00:44:06] Nicole: but, but you had, yeah.
[00:44:07] Nicole: Yeah. But you had valid points too. Like there are things that I'm like, I do understand, like, and it's important that you say that it's important that you said what you needed to say and that I don't cut you off, and that I don't immediately, you know, get my backup and say, Hmm, we can't do this right now.
[00:44:26] Nicole: You, because yes, we can. Yes, we can. Like, it can all be part of the conversation
[00:44:33]
[00:44:36] Jolene: I have a lot of good for the souls that I just wanna throw out there to everybody. it's, they're menopause related,
[00:44:42] Jolene: Oh, excellent.
[00:44:44] Nicole: it's more like resources. Things that we, might have covered, didn't cover. I will put this all in the show notes. We will put the FDA expert panel on menopause in the show notes.
[00:44:56] Nicole: Thank you Jolene, for finding it. And all of those [00:45:00] doctors, you could, you can't follow all of them on Instagram, but they have websites and you can, I think, reach out to most of them. Dr. Mary Claire Haber, she's obviously on Instagram. I will put in the show notes, the recent episode of Dak Shepherd, armchair expert.
[00:45:17] Nicole: Interestingly, with that side note, it's another one of those two and a half hour things.
[00:45:23] Jolene: Ah, why are they making these long damn podcasts? I don't have time
[00:45:27] Nicole: Okay, but, but but I know, but, but, but hear me out here. that interview ends about hour one.
[00:45:33] Nicole: And I was like, what is this? And I started listening. I was like, oh my God, there's another hour. What? And I listened to a little bit more and he was talking about the things that scares him the most is that we're not listening to each other
[00:45:48] Jolene: oh,
[00:45:49] Nicole: and that we're so divided.
[00:45:51] Nicole: he had a dinner party with a lawyer that has, argued at the Supreme Court, the most wins of the Supreme Court. And he's, [00:46:00] I think he's a conservative, That he was with three liberals and he was talking to this lawyer and they were sort of attacking him.
[00:46:10] Nicole: And then he went, wait, this is an opportunity to speak to one of the smartest people on the planet that
[00:46:15] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:46:15] Nicole: than me. I'm just gonna say, Dak Shepherd, please listen to our podcast 'cause we'll make you feel better. How's that, Mel Robbins, had Dr. Mary Claron, I'll put that on Diary of a CEO. He had her on. I'll put that on so you can get as much of that as possible.
[00:46:34] Nicole: She's not repeating all the time. and then this is, a separate, shout out. one of Josh's, colleagues, his wife, was a lawyer and she just, edited her first book, and I'll put that in the show notes. It's called midlife private parts, revealing essays that will change the way you think about age she edited, her [00:47:00] name's Dina Aronson. She edited with another Dina named Dina Alvarez. And they, it's a book of essays, 27 essays about women and midlife. I got to go to the launch party in New York, which was really fun, and she had some of the authors up there and they were funny and sad and moving and all the things that we all go through.
[00:47:20] Nicole: And I totally recommend the book and I'll put it in the show notes to give her a shout out. Do you have any resources or anything you wanna,
[00:47:28] Jolene: No, I don't. I do have a, would you rather,
[00:47:31] Nicole: I'm ready.
[00:47:36] Jolene: Would you rather be President for one Chaotic week or the Press Secretary for one year?
[00:47:44] Nicole: That's really good.
[00:47:46] Jolene: Isn't that a good one? President for one Chaotic Week or Press Secretary for one year?
[00:47:55] Nicole: Is the press secretary, that little Caroline girl?
[00:47:57] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:58] Nicole: Do I get to pick who my [00:48:00] president is or do I have to be President? Trump's president or President Trump's press secretary.
[00:48:05] Jolene: Oh. you have to step in tomorrow,
[00:48:07] Nicole: And be President
[00:48:08] Jolene: either,
[00:48:09] Jolene: You, and you could either be Trump's pre secretary for one year, or you could take over for Trump for one week.
[00:48:18] Nicole: Baby. This is an opportunity. we've got to talk. Opportunity
[00:48:23] Nicole: to walk. No. To walk the walk. I'm gonna be in there for a year with that
[00:48:29] Nicole: man.
[00:48:30] Nicole: And I am going to be the press secretary and we're gonna figure the shit out, y'all. I'm gonna communicate for the people and we're gonna figure this out. Well, I'm gonna listen.
[00:48:45] Nicole: I'm gonna learn and I'm gonna use my own brain
[00:48:48] Jolene: Oh gosh. That would be so great.
[00:48:52] Nicole: One chaotic week.
[00:48:54] Jolene: I
[00:48:54] Jolene: There's no win there. I know. But think of all the things you could get done. You could sign all these [00:49:00] executive orders and
[00:49:01] Nicole: because it doesn't work. That's why I think I need to be the press secretary. I need to get in there. I need to get granular. I need to figure this stuff out.
[00:49:10] Jolene: know The fucking ego on me, right? So dumb. But I'm actually meaning like we could actually walk the walk or maybe we could be, we could be co press secretaries.
[00:49:22] Jolene: No, I think it would be really smart that you have like the opposite party has to provide the press secretary.
[00:49:30] Nicole: information, like how do we do this? So I'm like, guess what? Don't do that.
[00:49:37] Jolene: But as you're coming out and you're going, so we signed this today, dunno why, but we did. And, uh,
[00:49:46] Nicole: It's up to you guys.
[00:49:48] Jolene: 2026. I don't know. Let's talk about it. That, that would be funny. That would be funny.
[00:49:56] Nicole: yeah,
[00:49:57] Nicole: Would you rather [00:50:00] hear a comforting lie or an uncomfortable truth?
[00:50:05] Jolene: okay. no, for me, I would rather hear the uncomfortable truth because number one, I'm not easily offended, but number two, I kind of assume that everyone is lying anyway, so I. I mean, that is okay here. And here's what I mean
[00:50:28] Nicole: I'm, I'm sorry, I'm, hold on. You and I are totally opposite. I assume everyone is telling the truth.
[00:50:36] Nicole: That's I know that is so, that is so true. That is so
[00:50:39] Nicole: Oh my gosh. How do you walk through the world? Everybody's lying. Everybody's lying. Everybody's lying.
[00:50:45] Jolene: Here's what I mean. I think people tell you what they want you to hear or they tell you what they want you to think. but I think that deep down they don't truly believe it or they're saying something to get a rise outta you or to see what your reaction is even [00:51:00] to the point where my friend said very nice things to me this weekend, and I'm like, yeah, but I know you're gonna leave and go, yeah, all those things are true except, oh God, I didn't think her breakfast was very good.
[00:51:11] Jolene: I, you know what? There, I didn't think their towels were that fluffy. I mean, like, I naturally think that I just, I think people tell you nice things, but then there's a butt in there.
[00:51:26] Jolene: oh God, maybe. Is that a sad,
[00:51:28] Jolene: do you think if it's a sad thing and going on in my head?
[00:51:32] Nicole: I do because I want my friend to be nice to my friend. It seems kind of mean to yourself. And that said, do you think in our conversations that I'm just being nice?
[00:51:43] Jolene: no, 'cause I think you speak from your heart.
[00:51:46] Jolene: Yeah. You're like, oh, she's upset. No, because I think that you, but again, I don't get offended, so I think that even if I think. That everything that you said was true. [00:52:00] I think there's, you know, you may walk away and go, God, Josh, I didn't like the way that she did this. And that's, and I think that's okay. So I naturally assume, yes. I, I naturally assume that you walk away and you're, and that there is something that bothers you.
[00:52:17] Jolene: But I can't let that bother me. And so that's why I'm never offended God. Does that really twist it?
[00:52:22] Nicole: Okay. So, here's a question. Is that how you are,
[00:52:26] Jolene: Well then that's, that's what I'm wondering then.
[00:52:29] Nicole: do you get off the sessions with me and are, and you're like, Jeff, oh my God, she didn't let me talk about trans issues or whatever. Or she got upset about this, or blah, blah, blah.
[00:52:42] Jolene: yes, I will, I will tell him about the conversation, but I think I also look at it as. But I get it. I mean, I understand it and I don't, and again, I don't find it offensive.
[00:52:55] Nicole: but you just assume that people are [00:53:00] thinking Ill will.
[00:53:02] Jolene: no, I don't think that people are naturally mean or negative.
[00:53:07] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:08] Jolene: but it's almost like when you get a compliment, maybe it's just when somebody gives you a compliment and you're like, yeah, those pants look really good on you.
[00:53:17] Jolene: 'cause your ass is fat. I mean, that is, I mean, that's exactly the stuff that goes through my head.
[00:53:25] Nicole: Because I would take it a step further, Mike Darling, and say, you are very uncomfortable being vulnerable.
[00:53:32] Jolene: Oh God, that is so true. I know.
[00:53:34] Nicole: Right? Because if someone is putting attention on you, it makes you deflect. Let me make a
[00:53:40] Nicole: joke.
[00:53:40] Nicole: percent. Like, right. and it's, 'cause even like I know that I am a lot for you, and I do speak from the heart and I do tell you how much I love you.
[00:53:50] Nicole: And I do like, and I mean it, I mean it.
[00:53:54] Nicole: And that's
[00:53:55] Nicole: and it's hard sometimes. It's hard. to receive it.
[00:53:59] Jolene: [00:54:00] Yeah.
[00:54:00] Nicole: I think we're all kind of that way,
[00:54:02] Jolene: we got so deep.
[00:54:03] Nicole: We did get so deep. thank you all for listening and sitting in the discomfort when it was uncomfortable. that's vulnerable and brave too. To listen and to watch this is tough stuff that we're doing, having these conversations and we are encouraging you to go on this road with us and to do the same, with people that you might not have the same beliefs. we have a Facebook page, everybody.
[00:54:29] Nicole: And so we will be posting on our Facebook page as well, that we've got to talk. And you can subscribe there too. Subscribe on YouTube, subscribe on Instagram, subscribe on Spotify, and subscribe on Apple.
[00:54:43] Nicole: We're on all the things. We are on all the things.
[00:54:47] Jolene: You can't escape us.
[00:54:48] Nicole: can't escape us. we've gotta talk everybody. We've got to talk. girl, I love you. Thank you
[00:54:56] Nicole: for doing this and thank you guys and we'll see you [00:55:00] very soon.
[00:55:00]
