How Postpartum Medicaid Went From 60 Days to a Year in Wisconsin
A few years ago, 14 Wisconsinites with very different political views sat down in the same room to talk about abortion and family wellbeing. This was organized by the Builders Movement Citizen Solutions Sessions. It was three days, practical with trained facilitators and a clear process as to how the session would run. The expectation was that they’d come away with a clearer idea as to how each side felt about this very big issue.
And it worked. That group ended up backing a proposal to extend Medicaid postpartum coverage in Wisconsin from 60 days to a full year. In March 2026, that policy passed almost unanimously, and Governor Tony Evers signed it into law. Which is one of those sentences that sounds tidy until you remember what it actually means. It means more moms can get treated for postpartum depression. More women can get help when something goes wrong after birth. More families can access care during the months when everything is raw and new and expensive and exhausting. It’s not a symbolic win. It’s a real one.
The reason we’re telling you this is because the story behind it is not tidy at all.
Because when you hear “14 people from different perspectives came together,” it’s easy to picture a wholesome montage. People nodding thoughtfully. A few brave tears. Everyone leaving with each other’s phone numbers and a renewed faith in humanity.
That is not what this sounded like.
Ali, who’s a progressive Democrat and an elected official in Madison, admitted she walked into the process suspicious. She worried it would be sensationalized. She worried it would be a set-up, like conflict-as-entertainment, where people’s pain gets dragged out on camera and turned into a spectacle. She’s seen enough political theatre to know how easily “dialogue” can be used as a prop.
Kai came in with a different posture. She identifies as an independent, a “world citizen,” someone who tries to judge issues on their own merits. She trusted the person who referred her, and she’s been in enough contentious rooms to believe she could handle it.
Kateri, who describes herself as Catholic and prefers the phrase “consistent life ethic,” had a more personal anxiety. Not about whether they’d find policies to help families, but about what people would think of her, how she’d be read, and whether she’d be treated like a person or like a symbol.
The fear isn’t usually about the policy. The fear is about being flattened into a stereotype.
Kateri said something that felt painfully accurate. People love to say “assume good intent,” but that’s a lot easier when you’ve built up an emotional bank with someone. When you’ve had enough normal, human moments that you can draw on them when the conversation gets heated. But if you start with the issue first, and the issue is one of the most emotional things humans can talk about, and you’re doing it with strangers, and you’re being recorded, you don’t have that bank. You’re trying to do the hardest part first.
She also didn’t sugar-coat her own experience. She said she didn’t feel understood over those three days. She said it was one of the hardest things she’s ever done. And she said she didn’t want to paint a rosy picture just because she believes in the mission, because that’s how people end up feeling like failures when they try to do this kind of work and it gets messy.
Ali, who went in wary, ended up describing the facilitation as awe-inspiring. She talked about how much she grew to love this group of people, even with deep disagreement. She was surprised by how much they had in common once they stopped guessing each other’s stories and actually heard them.
Kai described how, in the moments where emotions ran high, people were “mirroring” each other. Different conclusions, but similar pain. Trauma swirling around the room, but also compassion showing up anyway. Even when it got tense.
And then, out of all that tension, the group landed somewhere that was almost shockingly practical.
They kept circling back to the same reality: you cannot talk about “family wellbeing” in an abstract way while ignoring the systems that keep families afloat. You can’t talk about being pro-life or pro-choice without talking about healthcare access. You can’t talk about what women “should” do without talking about what happens to women after they give birth.
Wisconsin, at the time, was one of only two states that had not extended Medicaid coverage beyond 60 days postpartum. Sixty days. As if your body, your hormones, your mental health, your finances, your baby, and your recovery all wrap up neatly at the two-month mark.
So they backed extending it to a full year.
Kateri said that part wasn’t surprising to her at all. She’s done work with people in solitary confinement and kids in juvenile detention. She’s seen how much people agree on helping families, even when they don’t agree on the headline issue. Her frustration was that people act like those overlaps don’t exist, because labels have become louder than reality.
Ali framed it in a way that cut through the noise. If someone needs an abortion, it’s not her job to qualify whether they “deserve” it. If someone needs healthcare after giving birth, it’s not our job to qualify whether they’re “deserving” of that care. Care is care. It’s not a prize you win for being the right kind of person.
And then politics did what politics does.
They talked about how disheartening it was to hear the postpartum Medicaid extension framed as “an expansion of welfare.” How that kind of language reinforces the ugliest version of the story people tell about each other. The version where you can force a teenager to give birth, then cut off her healthcare, and still call yourself moral. The version where the system pits people against each other and rewards power-hoarding over problem-solving.
Still, it took a few years of persistence, but the bill passed almost unanimously in March 2026.
Ali said she would do it again in a heartbeat. Not because it was easy, but because it mattered. She compared it to motherhood. Being a mom is beautiful and brutal and humbling. It confronts your ego every day. It doesn’t care how accomplished you are. Your teenager still thinks you’re an Uber driver. Your four-year-old still thinks you’re just a lady with snacks.
And maybe that’s the point. This wasn’t a neat story about people being polite. This was a story about people doing something emotionally brutal, with imperfect relationship-building and real tension, and still managing to create something that helps moms across Wisconsin.
They didn’t solve the abortion issue in three days. They didn’t float out of the room holding hands.
They did the work anyway.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Builders Movement: https://buildersmovement.org/
Citizen Solutions Wisconsin: http://citizensolutions.us/citizensolutions/wi
GOOD FOR THE SOUL:
Ali’s: My Friends by Friedrich Bachman
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/217163697-my-friends
Kateri’s - East of Eden by John Steinbeck https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4406.East_of_Eden
Kai’s - Hammersmith Odeon Concerts https://www.concertarchives.org/venues/hammersmith-odeon
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[00:00:00] Jolene: We are so excited to have three guests on our show today. Nicole and I often talk about solutions coming from different perspectives and different sides of the aisles. These three ladies actually got something done. They are part of the Wisconsin Citizens Solution Session, which is part of the Builders Movement that we've talked about previously.
[00:00:19] And what they were tasked with was talk about,
[00:00:22] Abortion
[00:00:23] issues. What they landed on was extending Medicaid coverage for the state of Wisconsin for the mothers
[00:00:29] from
[00:00:30] two months to 12 months.
[00:00:32] nicole: our guests are wildly different people. We have a white Catholic who opposes abortion. We have an African American pro-choice progressive, and we have an independent African Jewish woman. On the surface, you would think, wh-what could they possibly agree on?
[00:00:47] Well, they actually agreed on a lot, and we are so excited to bring them to the We've Got to Talk audience. Because in March of twenty twenty-six, they stood behind Governor Tony Evers as he signed [00:01:00] into law the legislation that they helped write to create postpartum coverage from two months to a year. Please welcome these ladies. We're so excited to have you. She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money. And we say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud. Welcome to, we've got to Talk. Welcome Jolene, and welcome ladies.
[00:01:38] Jolene: You guys, we are so excited to have our guests today. Um, as you may have already heard us announce, we've been invited to become Builders Movement Partners, and the Builders Movement is creating America's largest grassroots organization to solve problems together by finding common ground. In December of 20 23 14, Wisconsinites with [00:02:00] different political perspectives convened for a solution session on abortion and family wellbeing.
[00:02:06] The group decided to focus on their proposal to. Advance Medicaid postpartum from 60 days to a year in March of 2026. This policy passed almost unanimously as they stood by governor Tony Evers as he signed the bill into law.
[00:02:22] nicole: Thank you for being here, and please welcome the three of the Wisconsinites that were part of this group. us introduce you to Ali Mulrow, Kai Gardner, mish love and Ingle Pinnell. Ladies, thank you for coming on. We've got to talk. We're so excited to have you here today.
[00:02:41] Jolene: as we talk about this project, I wanna hear from each of you, um, Tiri, we'll start with you. What, what was your initial reaction when you learned of this project and that, that you were gonna be, uh, a part of it?
[00:02:53] Kateri Klingele Pinell: of course, a million thoughts rushed through my mind, right? Like, what will this look like? Who will be there? [00:03:00] But wasn't unfamiliar with Madison. Right. Which is what we all, where we all did this work, though not all of us are, are living there currently. And the very kind of nature of a lot of conversations that, uh, that occur in that town and sort of the, the vibe, so to speak of, of what might happen. But I also knew that the majority of, of Madisonian and Wisconsinites agreed on a lot of things that would help families.
[00:03:28] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:03:28] Kateri Klingele Pinell: wasn't concerned about actual policies we would be able to put forward in terms of helping families more about what will people think of me, what are the judgements, what are the ideas, what's gonna be the emotional tenor in the room? But I was grateful that I was correct in the sense of we do agree on a lot of these policies and what we can do together.
[00:03:51] Jolene: And, and how do you identify yourself politically?
[00:03:54] Kateri Klingele Pinell: would just say I'm Catholic, right? Like my, my husband was joking. He's like, wow, they're gonna be like, Tiri, who's [00:04:00] pregnant and conservative and lives in Florida. And I was like, I was like, oh, yikes. Okay. Um, I feel like it's one of those things where, yeah, my faith is, is is how I root myself.
[00:04:12] Because so many policies and ideas just don't fall neatly into one box.
[00:04:17] Jolene: Hmm. Yeah.
[00:04:17] Kateri Klingele Pinell: think the tenor of the conversation is constantly shifting, right? Like I'd probably group myself in with that sort of new hetero doc space, right? Like if you listen to sort of on podcasts like, um, Megan Dows, uh, on speakeasy or blocked and reported or kind of some of those spaces where just like, I want free conversation.
[00:04:34] I want us to engage in that. But then my ideas of sort of specific policy interventions aligned with the Catholic Church's doctrine on, um, social and political thought.
[00:04:44] Jolene: I love that. Ali, how about you? What was your initial reaction and how do you identify yourself?
[00:04:51] Ali: I identify as an African American woman. I am a progressive, I vote Democrat. Um, [00:05:00] I, I run in a nonpartisan race. I'm an elected official here in Madison, and I've been on the school board for three terms.
[00:05:07] Jolene: Oh, good for you.
[00:05:08] Ali: my original response was I was suspicious. I was, I was suspicious of like the. Sensationalization of conflict and getting people on camera to bring out the worst in one another and to, um, you know, create like a display of dysfunction. And I, I come from, uh, a family that has a lot of difference in terms of political beliefs. And so I think, you know, I, I thought this could almost be the ultimate Thanksgiving dinner gone wrong, you know?
[00:05:44] nicole: Yes.
[00:05:46] Ali: so I had, I had a lot of questions about how they wanted to do this and how they wanted to do it. Well, exactly. I was,
[00:05:53] nicole: Do
[00:05:54] Ali: I, I,
[00:05:54] nicole: that scene in the Bear? It's
[00:05:57] Ali: se seven Fishes is, that's [00:06:00] the episode. I mean,
[00:06:01] nicole: it
[00:06:01] Ali: but
[00:06:02] Jolene: Oh, funny.
[00:06:02] nicole: do you know what we're talking about? I know,
[00:06:04] Jolene: I know the show, but I haven't seen it.
[00:06:05] nicole: Thanksgiving episode is epic, and it, I feel like a, sorry to segue, but I feel like it was shot in one, in one shot, and all those actors is very theater like. They just, and I was so proud of them and so uncomfortable. Right. You are like, what's gonna
[00:06:21] Jolene: oh God.
[00:06:22] nicole: next?
[00:06:22] Ali: I was like, give, give Jamie Lee Curtis, her Emmy right now. Um, yeah, no, it, I, I, I entered it really curious and also really aware of how it could be exploitive and harmful.
[00:06:38] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:06:39] nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:06:40] Jolene: Wow. how about you? Tell us about you and what were your initial reactions?
[00:06:44] KaiM: well, I identify as a world citizen, a woman of the African and the Jewish diaspora. Um, someone who, um, is an independent. Um, I tend to, I try to think as independently as [00:07:00] I can and critically analyze everything. It's hard for me to align with one political party. so I basically judge things on issue. Um, when I first heard about this project, I was referred by a good friend, pat McFarland, who I really trust. I've known her for many, many years. so I didn't feel suspicious about it. After talking to, um, the organizers, I, and looking it up, I said, oh, maybe I can trust this process. I figure. because of my work, I'm in a lot of different con rooms with contentious issues.
[00:07:40] I figured it couldn't be any worse than anything I've gone through so far. And it might be something that I learned from. And I love the idea of folks from different, or from opposing sides getting together and talking about things. I feel that's the way we make progress. So for the sake of heaven, as they [00:08:00] say, you know, uh, there's a saying about the house of Hillel and the House of Shamai in Jewish tradition fighting over some issues.
[00:08:07] And so for the sake of heaven, you have these discussions. And that's the way I thought this might be.
[00:08:14] nicole: How long was the process? Uh, Kateri how long did it go for? So
[00:08:18] Kateri Klingele Pinell: So the
[00:08:19] Jolene: So the.
[00:08:19] Kateri Klingele Pinell: meeting or kind of, you know, grouping was three days. And then we did meet up, gosh, what ladies, you'll have to remind me like three, a few months later, maybe for like a brief day long kind of follow up. it was, it was, it was three days to, to start.
[00:08:37] nicole: And so I'll start with Gati. Um. Was there anything that surprised you about someone else in the group or the experience in the group or something that was surprised about yourself going through this experience
[00:08:49] Kateri Klingele Pinell: it's funny because it's, it's one of those things where it's like, should that have been surprising or was I just naive? In the
[00:08:56] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:08:56] Kateri Klingele Pinell: when I think about like, what was surprising for myself, I was like,
[00:08:58] nicole: like,
[00:08:58] Kateri Klingele Pinell: how I like to [00:09:00] think frame things in a very logical way. I like to kind of engage in sort of, um, a more intellectualized form of discussion, but I'm a very fiery person and I'm emotional, but I sort of like had this like, oh, I'll just go in and I'm just gonna, like, that's not gonna be a thing, you know?
[00:09:16] Like, I'll feel worried and, and, but it's not gonna like
[00:09:19] nicole: upset.
[00:09:19] Kateri Klingele Pinell: which is of course super prideful and naive. 'cause of course it's emotional. Like this is one of the most emotional things we could talk about in a group of strangers for a long period of time while you're being recorded.
[00:09:30] Jolene: gosh.
[00:09:31] Kateri Klingele Pinell: I was surprised just by. Almost like how flooded I was, like that I was trying to engage in this way that I felt very comfortable in other spaces with people whom I disagreed with. But I realized that I'd had a lot more time in previous, um, environments to build relationships first as opposed to approaching the issue first.
[00:09:52] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:09:53] nicole: so
[00:09:54] Kateri Klingele Pinell: kind of emotional side of like, oh my gosh, I feel like you don't see me, or you don't understand what I'm saying, or you're not following, [00:10:00] or you're, the way you're receiving, what I'm saying is not what I'm trying to portray or get across, like there's no emotional bank, right?
[00:10:06] You don't have like the currency built up with anybody beforehand to be able to draw on, right. To have that, like, okay, I want to assume best intent. We can use that language all we want, right? Like, but the reality is that oftentimes the ability to do that comes from intentional relationship building. And while I do think builders made an effort, right, to connect people. think because of the nature of the issue and because of sort of people's lived experience trauma and just worldviews that going right into some of the work without more intentional understanding of the individual. And you're already kind of posed on like a side so to speak,
[00:10:46] Jolene: Hmm mm-hmm.
[00:10:46] Kateri Klingele Pinell: really hard.
[00:10:47] So I was just
[00:10:49] nicole: Surprised
[00:10:50] Kateri Klingele Pinell: of my, my own reactivity to that, um, and sensitivity in a way. yeah, I shouldn't have been right, but you, you don't really know until you
[00:10:59] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:10:59] Kateri Klingele Pinell: [00:11:00] these things.
[00:11:01] nicole: so And so I'm curious, Ali, 'cause you went in suspicious
[00:11:05] Ali: I think that there were elements of the facilitation that were so well done, and we were held with such regard that it was pretty awe-inspiring, how much I love this group of people, and loving people from a space of conviction when you have really different perspectives and really different lives and really different experiences. I also think.
[00:11:31] nicole: think
[00:11:31] Ali: That I didn't come into the space fully prepared to have a lot in common with people I disagreed with deeply on this issue. And so when it came to light that there were multiple people in the space who were survivors of domestic violence, that there were multiple people in the space who identified as people of color, you know, I think I was surprised by our willingness to listen to one another and to think critically about one another's ideas. and I, I think I was shocked by how dear so [00:12:00] many of the folks we got to work with became to one another throughout the process.
[00:12:05] nicole: Kai.
[00:12:06] KaiM: Yeah, I would say what surprised me is during, um, periods of discussion where emotions were very high. It was very interesting to me. Some of the examples that people gave about their life experiences, even if they were directly opposite, they were very similar. I felt like
[00:12:28] Jolene: Hm.
[00:12:29] KaiM: people were mirroring each other even if they were coming from a different, you know, pro-choice versus prolife very, but still mirroring each other with their experiences.
[00:12:40] nicole: you give an example without betraying any?
[00:12:44] KaiM: Uh, yeah, there were, there were situations where folks were very traumatized by the decision that they made to either have an abortion, be forced to have an abortion, or felt that they were forced to have an abortion, or [00:13:00] folks who felt it very, it was very important for them to have that child. And so there, there were different examples that came up. Some folks who had choosing to, terminate a pregnancy based on. You know, what was very valid for them. And then there were folks who felt betrayed by maybe a partner having done that. And then there were folks who felt very much, angry that they had made a decision to freely, um, you know, terminate.
[00:13:31] And they were not honored or respected for that. So I just saw a lot
[00:13:36] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:13:36] KaiM: trauma swirling around in the
[00:13:39] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:40] KaiM: and in that trauma and that pain, I think that people were able to see each other as human beings worthy of compassion, and empathy. And that was what was really, you know, touching to me. Even though it got very tense at times,
[00:13:56] nicole: course,
[00:13:57] KaiM: we
[00:13:57] nicole: of course. Did you lead the [00:14:00] breathing exercises? Kai
[00:14:02] KaiM: Yes,
[00:14:02] nicole: breathing is really important
[00:14:04] KaiM: It's really important.
[00:14:05] nicole: when it gets that charged. Yeah. We get super charged.
[00:14:09] KaiM: up and not breathe.
[00:14:10] nicole: And Jolene and I talk about a lot just how in this society, we're so addicted to our screens and we're so addicted to social media and it's really easy to spew out your opinion or your hate
[00:14:27] KaiM: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:27] nicole: when they're not standing in front of you. And when, I mean, I suppose it does happen, but when you have, when you're human to human in that room, you know, breathing together, seeing each other, it's really hard just shut down and not listen.
[00:14:46] Jolene: So I think, Kate,
[00:14:47] nicole: Terry, you
[00:14:47] Jolene: said this and I think, uh, Ali, you, you kind of reiterated it as well. did this session? Start with. Relationship building? I mean, was that the first step? Was that a con, was there a [00:15:00] conscientious effort made in, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna start in relationship building and then we'll move on to the issue?
[00:15:08] Or did that happen naturally?
[00:15:10] Ali: I think throughout the process there were spaces where we were sharing meals with one another, where we were engaged in conversation and pair share and things that allowed for us to show up fully as people as well as participate in this conversation and this dialogue about what it means to. Solve real problems here in Wisconsin. And so I do think there was a fair amount of understanding that this could only really work if we had meaningful relationships with one another and were willing to listen to each other, um, and, and cared about one another's, you know, right. To be in the space and to speak.
[00:15:53] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Yeah, I'm, I'm kind of having this like internal like, fight right now with myself. I'll be [00:16:00] honest in the sense of I wanna show up like, honestly about what my experience was like, but then also have this pressure because I love builders and I love what they do and wanna encourage people. But I felt like the ability to build relationships with people across that space was limited.
[00:16:18] Like, I did not feel safe or understood Yeah, it was probably one of the hardest things I've done.
[00:16:24] Jolene: Really
[00:16:25] Kateri Klingele Pinell: I, I fear painting a rosy picture that wasn't what the experience was for me, if that makes sense. Like, I'm
[00:16:33] Jolene: absolutely.
[00:16:34] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Ali because like, you two have stuck with it, right?
[00:16:38] Like, and I think that, I felt that in the room as well. Like Ali and I are both really fiery people. Like we're, we're very, we are passionate, we care about things. And so I definitely felt like, okay, even if we're so different, like there, there's, there's similarity here. That's, I don't know, like
[00:16:57] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:16:58] Kateri Klingele Pinell: perspective on, on our [00:17:00] personalities ly you can feel free to contradict that in any way.
[00:17:02] Ali: I share that belief. Okay.
[00:17:05] Kateri Klingele Pinell: so, so, and then Kai just is like, yeah, you, as you mentioned earlier, Kai, your ability, you've been in these spaces, right? Like you, you are able to be that kind of. Gentle and yet directive voice in a room that can help kind of bring the temperature down. And I'm also one of the youngest people in this space, right?
[00:17:26] So it's been like almost four years since we did this, right? And so when you're in your twenties, that's, there's a lot of change that happens every year, right? So I have to just name that as well, right? That like how,
[00:17:38] nicole: you guys
[00:17:38] Kateri Klingele Pinell: how you guys might have shown up at like, I'm almost 28, right? Like, but how you might have shown up when you're in your early twenties versus your late twenties is
[00:17:46] Jolene: Right,
[00:17:47] Kateri Klingele Pinell: it feels to me like a, a big difference.
[00:17:49] So it's also hard to do this retrospective of like, what was you, or a young 20-year-old and what was like, that was valid for the experience and what was going on for you.
[00:17:59] and [00:18:00] so I, I did feel that there were complexities and nuances to this process, that I don't wanna muddy the waters too much, but just that. The kind of the individuals. I always say I adhere to the consistent life ethic as opposed to using the word pro-life. Just 'cause I think people have a lot of ideas about the word pro-life versus CLE, but individuals who right oppose abortion. I think there was, there was a large lack of intellectual, ideological, cultural diversity.
[00:18:26] And so it made for, difficulty even kind of like relating to some of the individuals on my own side, right? Where it's sort of like, we might agree on this thing, but I disagree, but many of these things. And then, it's also painting this picture of the movement we're in that I don't think is an accurate picture of the movement we're in.
[00:18:43] nicole: in.
[00:18:43] Kateri Klingele Pinell: and it makes it difficult. And so I did feel, that trauma piece as well in the room, right? It's like when you show up as. With this label associated with you. and there can be people who, and there are people who oppose abortion, who say abhorrent [00:19:00] things who are degrading and dehumanizing and yeah, just do not embody what one would hope and request.
[00:19:09] And I fail on this too, right? Like, I'm not perfect, somebody who's saying, I think there should be no violence for all people, for all, you know, the whole span of their life.
[00:19:17] and so if you have
[00:19:18] nicole: a
[00:19:18] Kateri Klingele Pinell: a really traumatic experience and then there's an individual in that space, right, who you don't have a relationship with, can sort of become a symbol or an archetype of everything that you project onto that movement or that idea,
[00:19:33] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:33] Kateri Klingele Pinell: if that's not you.
[00:19:34] And so,
[00:19:35] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:19:35] Kateri Klingele Pinell: my experience then, and my recollection was sort of like. I'm sure I failed in many ways, right? I am not perfect. I, this is a learning experience. Thanks be to God. I'm grateful that I did it and I got to show up and, and fail and hopefully have some successes. But I, I did feel often you're not seeing me,
[00:19:54] Jolene: Hmm,
[00:19:54] Kateri Klingele Pinell: something else.
[00:19:55] That's not and I can't control that. Right? I would say [00:20:00] that emo that that relationship piece wasn't part of my experience. and that really actually was more afterwards in like Ali still showing up and Kai still showing up that I was like, oh, okay. you do see, like, even if we didn't agree, even if we had like heated moments, I felt humanized as opposed to dehumanized by the way that both Kai and Ali, who's treated me and, and engaged in this process.
[00:20:21] Jolene: Kai, in your, with your experience in working in this, in this arena, did you feel like maybe that was the, that relationship building should have been, maybe facilitated in a, in a better way?
[00:20:34] KaiM: Well, I think we have to be realistic about what can be
[00:20:38] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:39] KaiM: far as relationship building in a short period of
[00:20:41] Jolene: All right.
[00:20:42] KaiM: We were 14 people who didn't know each other or may have known each other very briefly before this, um, coming together. you know, it takes relationship building, takes time. no one becomes your best friend in an hour or two hours or, or et cetera. And I don't mean to be to, [00:21:00] you know, be flipped. Sometimes you meet people and right away there's that, that soul connection I call it, you
[00:21:05] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:21:05] KaiM: but it's ver when you're dealing with, um, people feeling comfortable to be stripped bare. self-reflect and to, you know, work out things with other people. It takes time. And so I know that, um, within the short amount of time that we had, we could have used more relationship building, but I don't know how that could be accomplished, um, given the space that we were in, the time that we
[00:21:33] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:21:34] KaiM: and, you know, all of the stuff that we needed to learn.
[00:21:37] 'cause when we came in, we didn't know exactly what we were going to agree
[00:21:41] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:42] KaiM: It wasn't until a process that we decided on expanding, um, Medicaid, postpartum, you know, expanding that. So, but before that we had to work through things. I think we did a pretty good job given that. And afterwards, I [00:22:00] think, um, the opportunities were there for people to build relationships and I think some relationships were built. Um, after that. Uh, folks who would've never met each other before. Um, who now are engaging with each other. So that's a positive.
[00:22:16] nicole: I mean,
[00:22:16] Jolene: Absolutely.
[00:22:17] nicole: talked about like the friend that suggested this, you trusted them
[00:22:22] but I feel like all this work, there's a leap of faith that you, it's a really brave thing that you guys were doing and are doing. , Jolene and I talk about it all the time, and I'm thrilled, Terri, that you shared that it was uncomfortable, this work is really hard. To actually do the work that you guys are doing, Ali, how would you, would you encourage someone this work?
[00:22:51] Someone to go into a, a different citizen session? Would you not encourage them?
[00:22:57] Ali: I would absolutely encourage [00:23:00] someone to, think the thing is like what made it. Easy to value this for me personally, is that I think it's a really rare opportunity that people are really honest with one another about what they disagree about and about the things in their lives that shape their experiences.
[00:23:19] I think it's really rare to have this kind of intensive conversation and to challenge each other and hold each other accountable and, you know, also like value each other. it's a pretty profound opportunity, and it's not that I think it was all like roses, but to me, as somebody who's on this side of it and knows that what we accomplished helps moms across the state of Wisconsin,
[00:23:48] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:49] Ali: it again in a heartbeat. I do
[00:23:51] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:23:51] Ali: a thousand times over. If it meant that some mom living in poverty like I was as a new mom.
[00:23:59] nicole: mom,[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Ali: have to worry about whether or not she can
[00:24:02] nicole: she can
[00:24:03] Ali: her mastitis like, or, you know,
[00:24:07] nicole: know,
[00:24:08] Ali: go seek, you know, help if she is really struggling with, you know, the millions of things that you can struggle with you give birth. I, I'm so grateful that I got to be a part of this, and I'm very grateful for the people that I got to meet. And
[00:24:23] something being hard doesn't make it less worthwhile. And I think, you know, the, I think of us are moms and, and being a mom
[00:24:31] nicole: mom,
[00:24:32] Ali: so beautiful and so challenging and,
[00:24:35] nicole: and, uh,
[00:24:36] Ali: You know, makes you confront your own ego every single day.
[00:24:40] Like, it doesn't matter
[00:24:42] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:24:42] Ali: accomplished I am in my professional life or political life, I have a 16-year-old who thinks I'm her uber driver. You know, like I have, I, I have a 4-year-old who like, I'm, I'm just a lady with snacks, you know, so I, [00:25:00] you know, I'm a 12-year-old who's, who's can't, could not, could not imagine why I would be late to pick her up from
[00:25:06] Jolene: Hey,
[00:25:06] nicole: volley.
[00:25:06] Ali: Like, I have people who I love dearly, who, uh, have a lot to say about the, the quality of the way I show up in the world. World. And I, I think we need that. We need people who challenge us to, to think about our ideas differently and can do that while holding us in a space of, you know, real conviction and thoughtfulness.
[00:25:30] Jolene: so were the men because there were, were there four men, how did they interact with all this? I mean, Ali, you just, you, you talked about this bonding. I mean, like, it doesn't matter your background or your ethnicity or your religion or, I mean, when you're a mom, man, we've all been through it. So like, how did the men, did they take a backseat how were they in this process?
[00:25:52] Kateri Klingele Pinell: They, they engaged, they had conversations.
[00:25:54] Ali: I deeply appreciate the, the men showed up. I do think there were these moments [00:26:00] where I loved watching the men in the space learn from the women in the space. Like, I loved watching, you know, we were there with a, a woman who is, um, you know, an obstetrician and she's like, well, what about a molar pregnancy?
[00:26:16] Like, what do you, what do you think happens during an atopic pregnancy? Like, really, like letting the men be in a little over their heads and, and have to figure things out that women and, and, folks who identify with femininity, grapple with on a regular basis or grapple with from puberty. It was interesting, to see, you know, men talk about the phenomena of pregnancy as folks who were well aware that it wasn't their experience.
[00:26:45] And, I think that
[00:26:47] nicole: allowed
[00:26:48] Ali: for the conversation. To be richer in a, in a lot of ways.
[00:26:52] Jolene: how did this project land on the Medicaid postpartum extension from what the original intent [00:27:00] was?
[00:27:00] KaiM: We spent so much time really dissecting what it meant for women to receive the care that they needed for some folks in the room. really, you can't talk about pro, you know, pro-life or pro-choice without talking about insurance coverage and
[00:27:21] Jolene: services
[00:27:22] KaiM: needed for women. You know, women, needs services, but, a woman is undergoing or not, we need those services so. we were talking about everything that was needed, some people were saying, well, families need this, or families need that. And as we were talking about what the needs are, we were also talking about what the gaps were.
[00:27:48] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:27:48] KaiM: And then that emerged more and more that we have this, you know, this real problem in Wisconsin, Wisconsin being one of two states that did not extend [00:28:00] Medicaid beyond 60 days
[00:28:02] nicole: after
[00:28:03] KaiM: birth, which was when people were thinking about that, I was like, oh my goodness.
[00:28:06] So we were also tasked with what would you like our world to look like? What would you like for families? What would you like for women? And those conversations evolved into what we didn't have. order for us to come to a world where we have for women, safety for families, et cetera, et cetera, it needs to be wrapped, wraparound.
[00:28:28] You need to have systems in place. finance is in place to support to fill those gaps that women and families are going through.
[00:28:39] nicole: Terri,
[00:28:39] Jolene: was that an easy jump for you to make as well?
[00:28:43] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Yeah. I mean, I think that's like when you asked the initial question about doing this most of my time was like, I was like the kind of always felt this anxiety about like, and I don't, I don't agree with abortion because most things was working with, right? Like I ran an organization in [00:29:00] Madison. We would do work with folks in solitary confinement and kids in juvenile detention facilities and like. It was not surprising. I was like, of course we agree about this, but we're not having conversations with each other. 'cause you know, you always see maybe those like video clips and people are like, but what about the kids outside the womb? And I'm just
[00:29:14] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:29:15] Kateri Klingele Pinell: I just remember feeling so frustrated. One because of the fallacy, but two, also because it's like, there are so many people doing this work, right?
[00:29:21] And not everybody, every time I like go volunteer, I'm not like, and I'm also pro-life, or I adhere to this life ethic. Like I'm just showing up in a space and trying to be present to the people there, not like label myself so that you know, that I also do all of these things on this checklist.
[00:29:36] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:29:36] Kateri Klingele Pinell: So no, I was like, this is exactly what we need because we do support these things.
[00:29:40] And I think people don't understand that we very much support these things, that help women, that help families. So yeah, no shock there. I was like, this is great. Let's do it.
[00:29:48] nicole: do it.
[00:29:48] Jolene: Ali, what, what about you did you find like the, the original intent, um, and then landing on this extension of, of the Medicaid was, was a natural progression.
[00:29:59] Ali: I [00:30:00] think that the conversation we were able to have had a real sense of what it means to care about people and what it means to take care of people. And
[00:30:09] so
[00:30:10] when I say I believe in abortion access, part of what I mean in saying that if you need an abortion, it's not my job to like judge why or qualify that need. And if you, you know, need healthcare, if you've just given birth and you're living in, in poverty, it's not our job to like qualify whether or not you're deserving of that care. I think we as a community believe in taking care of people. and so it was, it was interesting. Where like that conversation like divergent for people, right?
[00:30:49] Like where people see
[00:30:50] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:30:51] Ali: differently and where people know care to be the same thing. And so was I surprised, when [00:31:00] people embraced like ex an expansion of healthcare?
[00:31:04] nicole: Absolutely not.
[00:31:05] not
[00:31:06] Ali: I was surprised when you know, when we had a very partisan reaction from, uh, you know, our assembly leadership saying like, this is about
[00:31:15] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:31:16] Ali: And, you know, we, we really, you know, this was, this was a bipartisan bill. Um, and it was amazing to see how people talked about it, who were against it. and sometimes it was a little, uh, hard on the heart to be, to be super honest.
[00:31:34] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:35] Ali: for us as a group of 14 people, this seemed so obvious and in a lot of ways really easy.
[00:31:41] I think we were a little like, we can totally get this done. You know? So the fact that it took years,
[00:31:47] was challenging to say the least.
[00:31:49] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:50] Jolene: Right.
[00:31:50] nicole: that was the one, there was one guy, right, one person that didn't vote for
[00:31:55] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Mainly there were others. My, my husband and I went to the state capital to meet with some of [00:32:00] these individuals. It was ha hard, but I also think it's, it's one of those things where like we all exist in institutions and I think all institutions, just like all people holds and state these ideals about who we should be, right? have ideas about the world and how we should show up in the world, and then we're people, and we often fail to do that. We fail to follow the very things that we say. We believe in
[00:32:24] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:32:24] Kateri Klingele Pinell: should do this, whether it's our personal convictions or ones we're agreeing to because of an institution we're involved in and we're messy.
[00:32:31] nicole: mm-hmm.
[00:32:32] Kateri Klingele Pinell: I wasn't
[00:32:33] nicole: shocked.
[00:32:34] Kateri Klingele Pinell: right? Like people are people and they're messy. It doesn't matter if I'm meeting with 'em at the capitol or if I'm meeting with them in my office, like, or if I'm looking at myself in the mirror, it's just a reminder that, I can't control what other people do, but I can't control how I show up, right? So I can have all critiques for all other people, but I'm still hypocrite. And so in some ways it was like, okay, yep, this just reaffirms the reality of the world that like lot of mess here and I participate in [00:33:00] that mess. but there's a lot of good, and, and so can we be with those people who are in the good and persevere for years, right?
[00:33:07] To try to advocate for the things that we believe to be good and true and beautiful. And I believe that, that the good does win, even if it takes a hard and long fight.
[00:33:16] Ali: But I do think like part of that misconception of what it means to be pro-life or what it means to be conservative was reinforced by Robin Voss saying, this is an expansion of welfare. And it does reinforce that them versus us dynamic or that narrative
[00:33:35] nicole: that
[00:33:35] Ali: that this person feels more than comfortable forcing a 14-year-old to give birth and then cutting off her healthcare like that, that dynamic,
[00:33:45] KaiM: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:46] Ali: and it's part of the reason the conversation is challenging and it's part of the reason
[00:33:50] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:33:50] Ali: that people don't always, um. exactly how to relate to one another because we, we do have a political system that [00:34:00] pits people against one another, and where people hoard power and authority in ways that have devastating impacts on other people's lives.
[00:34:09] nicole: lives.
[00:34:10] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Like the representative, democracy is beautiful, but it's also who are we choosing to represent us? Right? that's a reality that you're
[00:34:17] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:34:18] Kateri Klingele Pinell: hard.
[00:34:18] nicole: I mean, was that the biggest backlash in the process? Did you have any friends or family as you were doing this process, doing the sessions that you would share with that? Maybe you had like a, maybe you had a great day in the session then you came to share with it and you, did you get any backlash from anyone
[00:34:36] Kateri Klingele Pinell: At least for me, everybody that I talked to was like, great. Awesome. That sounds hard and like praying for you,
[00:34:42] nicole: Then to me it seems like that, that, sorry, I forgot the guy's name. one that,
[00:34:47] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Vos.
[00:34:48] nicole: guy, uh, when he just shut that down. That must have, like you said,
[00:34:52] Kateri Klingele Pinell: I.
[00:34:53] nicole: just very disheartening that,
[00:34:55] Kateri Klingele Pinell: I mean, almost everybody was upset with it, right? Like I was meeting with people who are working on like the Wisconsin Catholic [00:35:00] Conference bishops who are like,
[00:35:01] KaiM: Right.
[00:35:01] Kateri Klingele Pinell: you know, we're having these meeting people who are working with like, who are supportive of many of you know, the conservative right policies and approaches. And there was quite a lot of unity around this issue. Um, and unity and frustration.
[00:35:19] nicole: Kai, do you
[00:35:20] Jolene: Well,
[00:35:20] nicole: you wanna say?
[00:35:21] KaiM: Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, I did speak to some friends and family about the process and everybody was really, really excited
[00:35:30] nicole: Yeah.
[00:35:31] KaiM: um, honored that we were doing this. But did have, uh, you know, some friends who were disappointed that we didn't get more accomplished
[00:35:41] Jolene: hmm.
[00:35:41] KaiM: as far as you know. And I had, just to be completely honest and transparent, I felt. All for expansion of Medicaid. I'm so happy that we landed on that. But there were times that I was disappointed that we did not, um, agree about what [00:36:00] healthcare is defined as that. Um, that we were not more understanding about, um, healthcare being a decision that should be decided between a woman's provider her spiritual advisor and herself. And so legislating that felt not being able to talk about that or come to an agreement
[00:36:23] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:36:23] KaiM: did feel like, oh, okay. I think we did kinda fail a little bit. I shouldn't even say fail
[00:36:29] nicole: Do you,
[00:36:29] KaiM: negative,
[00:36:30] nicole: you have enough time? I mean, is three days enough? It wouldn't, I wouldn't think that would be enough.
[00:36:36] KaiM: at all. Not at all. But
[00:36:37] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:36:38] KaiM: it is something that I, I'm hoping that maybe at some point we can pick up again. Um, I am concerned about the rights of women being rolled back. And that, so that is a concern, um, for me,
[00:36:51] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:51] KaiM: know, in the work that I've done, um, even before my current work in social services for so many, many years. So I, that is a [00:37:00] concern that I
[00:37:00] Jolene: Hmm. Um
[00:37:01] nicole: Well, thank you guys. does anyone have a good for the soul? Do all of you have good for the souls?
[00:37:11] Ali: my Good For the Soul is a book called My Friends by Friedrich Bachman that I just
[00:37:16] Jolene: hmm.
[00:37:17] Ali: And I loved this book so much that I was lonely when I stopped reading it because it was like,
[00:37:24] Jolene: Oh.
[00:37:24] Ali: it was like every time I was in the car outside my daughter's job waiting, I was like listening to the audio book. I was reading this book everywhere I went. It is so beautifully written and it is one of those books that is devastating because it is true to what it means to be a person and to be alive. And it is riveting and beautiful for the exact same reason. And it definitely aligns with like the James Baldwin quote. Like, I thought my pain was what separated me from everyone else until I learned to read.
[00:37:58] And then I realized the [00:38:00] thing that I thought made me so different is actually what I have in common with everybody.
[00:38:04] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:38:04] Ali: Um oh, please read it. It's so good. Join my book club, my friends. That's what it's called.
[00:38:11] nicole: Awesome. Awesome.
[00:38:12] Jolene: That is great.
[00:38:14] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Yeah, to pick up on the pain of, uh, the, the thread of pain. Mine was, I, I've, I've reread East of Eden recently for the second time,
[00:38:21] Jolene: Oh, wow.
[00:38:23] Kateri Klingele Pinell: oh my gosh,
[00:38:24] nicole: time.
[00:38:25] Kateri Klingele Pinell: the world is so broken and full of suffering, like there's just so much pain and sorrow. but the book and its ability to be honest about that and be honest about our brokenness, but also about the impact of family and community and, yeah.
[00:38:42] Historical reflection in future goals is, yeah. I don't know. Every time I read it, I feel Yeah, like there's almost, yeah, like something esoteric about it, like just, yeah, it feels good for the soul.
[00:38:57] KaiM: What.
[00:38:57] nicole: it,
[00:38:58] Jolene: That is great.
[00:38:59] nicole: Kai.
[00:38:59] Jolene: [00:39:00] Kay.
[00:39:00] KaiM: Uh, for me, anything related to music or food. So
[00:39:03] nicole: Ah,
[00:39:04] KaiM: um, looking at old concerts online from Hammersmith ion from the 1975 Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band Con Live concerts to Bob Marley's live concerts there. I love that. And also anything to do with food on Instagram. There's so many people that are so very creative. Um, you know, whether they're honoring their own tradition, culinary tradition, or if they're trying something new. I've just seen some great stuff.
[00:39:34] nicole: that's
[00:39:34] Jolene: That is, that is great. I agree with you totally.
[00:39:37] nicole: language
[00:39:38] Jolene: Oh my gosh, yes. Yeah.
[00:39:39] nicole: food, food, food.
[00:39:41] Jolene: Yep, a hundred percent.
[00:39:43] nicole: why don't you start with the, would you rather
[00:39:45]
[00:39:50] Jolene: would you rather have dinner once a week with someone from the opposite party that you strongly disagree with?
[00:39:59] [00:40:00] Or give a speech to a stadium full of people who already agree with everything you have to say,
[00:40:07] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Dinner. That's way more fun.
[00:40:10] KaiM: Dinner.
[00:40:13] Jolene: Ollie.
[00:40:13] Ali: gonna go with dinner.
[00:40:15] Jolene: Okay. I love that.
[00:40:18] nicole: that
[00:40:18] Jolene: Good for you.
[00:40:19] nicole: in our future? Is that what's happening?
[00:40:21] Jolene: Right. Kai's gonna make something that she saw on Instagram. We're, and we're all, uh, yeah. Perfect.
[00:40:29] nicole: gonna read and eat and listen to music.
[00:40:31] Kateri Klingele Pinell: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:32] Jolene: We'll go. Yep. We'll do Ali's book Club. Kai's gonna make dinner. Perfect.
[00:40:36] Kateri Klingele Pinell: come sit by the pool in Florida. That'd be
[00:40:38] Jolene: Oh,
[00:40:38] nicole: There
[00:40:39] Jolene: okay. My gosh. It's planned.
[00:40:41] nicole: who, who of you has a, would you rather, or all of you, who would like to go first?
[00:40:46] KaiM: would you rather do 50 burpees or run 25 miles?
[00:40:52] Jolene: Oh God.
[00:40:55] nicole: 50
[00:40:56] Ali: Wow.
[00:40:56] nicole: no
[00:40:57] Jolene: going with the burpees too. Yep.
[00:40:59] nicole: Ugh.[00:41:00]
[00:41:01] Ali: I'm, I'm training for a marathon right now.
[00:41:04] Jolene: Oh.
[00:41:05] Ali: a marathon related injury to my ankle that I'm recovering from. So yeah,
[00:41:09] Jolene: Oh, no.
[00:41:10] Ali: is to get to that 25 miles a little more than that. So I'm gonna go with that as my Would you rather, what about,
[00:41:16] Jolene: Wait. When is
[00:41:17] Ali: I,
[00:41:18] Kateri Klingele Pinell: am seven months pregnant right now, so I'm like, both of those sounds terrible to me. Terrible. So I think like the, the going down like squat, like, I think I would have to go with like a very slow run.
[00:41:32] nicole: Oh my gosh, that's
[00:41:33] Jolene: Ali? What marathon are you doing?
[00:41:35] Ali: I wanna do the marathon here in Madison by the time I'm 40. I turned 39 in about a week and a half, some. I'm working my way up. Thank you.
[00:41:46] nicole: That's
[00:41:46] Jolene: Oh,
[00:41:47] Ali: Because I
[00:41:48] Jolene: okay. Let's see it.
[00:41:49] Ali: a wedding and it was one of. The most sacred and gorgeous experiences of my life. Just shout out to Aiden and Tiffany.
[00:41:57] Thank you so much and congratulations, you gorgeous [00:42:00] newlyweds. Would you rather officiate a wedding or provide the entertainment, meaning you are the wedding singer? Which role suits you and your personality better?
[00:42:14] Jolene: I know which one. Nicole's picking.
[00:42:16] nicole: You do?
[00:42:17] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:42:18] nicole: Well, I used to sing, I've sung in weddings like, would you sing a song? But to do the whole night would be horrifying to me 'cause it's so terrifying to sing. And the older I get, the more terrified I get. So I think I'm gonna go with the sacred experience and be an efficient,
[00:42:37] Jolene: Oh, really?
[00:42:38] nicole: like a really, I had a friend officiate our wedding and it was just the most, she spent like months like talking to us and our story.
[00:42:48] It was the most, like the amazing gift to us. And I think to our, our people. Like it was so personal. It was so loved it. So I would like to do that for somebody[00:43:00]
[00:43:00] Jolene: Okay. No, that's not what I thought you would. I thought you'd go for the entertainment. How about if you and I were the entertainment and we get to sing karaoke all night? Like so, I mean, it doesn't have to be that good. Like we could do that.
[00:43:11] nicole: We're not gonna ruin their wedding.
[00:43:14] Jolene: We'd get 'em real drunk first. Like they would have to drink a whole bunch and then we'd come on like at like 10.
[00:43:20] nicole: dumb and tweedle dumber.
[00:43:24] we done?
[00:43:24] KaiM: rather officiate because
[00:43:26] Ali: Have you officiated?
[00:43:27] nicole: officiated?
[00:43:28] KaiM: I, never done it before, but I think that would be much more fun because otherwise I sound like a frog. Singing, I only sound good to myself in the shower, so I don't wanna ruin their
[00:43:39] nicole: Yeah.
[00:43:41] Kateri Klingele Pinell: I'd
[00:43:41] Jolene: All right.
[00:43:42] nicole: You'd sing
[00:43:43] Ali: Aw.
[00:43:44] Jolene: Okay.
[00:43:46] Kateri Klingele Pinell: doing theater, so I would, it would be a fun experience to
[00:43:49] Jolene: Love it.
[00:43:50] nicole: great.
[00:43:50] Ali: beautiful.
[00:43:51] nicole: Beautiful.
[00:43:51] Jolene: Love it. Yes.
[00:43:54] Kateri Klingele Pinell: one. I don't know how to answer myself. So good luck,
[00:43:56] Jolene: Okay.
[00:43:57] Kateri Klingele Pinell: um, crew. [00:44:00] Would you rather only be able to share the first half of your thought or the second half of your thought?
[00:44:05] Jolene: Oh,
[00:44:06] KaiM: Oh,
[00:44:06] nicole: Girl, that's good.
[00:44:08] Jolene: oh, wow.
[00:44:10] nicole: I would say the second, because the first is like just the menopausal brain, which
[00:44:16] Jolene: Ah,
[00:44:16] nicole: of you on the call haven't gotten there yet and it's just your life that it's the first half is there and then you're like, what? What were we talking about?
[00:44:26] Jolene: was I saying? Something
[00:44:28] nicole: half would help. Remember what the first half is,
[00:44:30] KaiM: Uhhuh.
[00:44:31] nicole: is what I'm
[00:44:31] Kateri Klingele Pinell: I get
[00:44:33] nicole: Joe
[00:44:34] Jolene: like that I, but I don't know. I think, um, yeah, because I think my thoughts change mid-sentence, and so you're right. I would have to, I, I would have to differentiate of what I started with and what actually comes outta my mouth. So I, yeah. I'm gonna have to go with the second half, I guess.
[00:44:52] KaiM: Yep. Second for me, that's for sure.
[00:44:57] Ali: I would definitely go with the first [00:45:00] half. Um, I'm a long-winded person and I think I usually get the point across earlier than I need to keep, I, like, I think I go too long, so I'm like, I'm, I would be more efficient if it was just like the beginning.
[00:45:15] Kateri Klingele Pinell: That was my thought too. I was like, I think actually, yeah, I could just get it out. We'd be straight on the
[00:45:19] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:45:20] Kateri Klingele Pinell: pregnancy brain, so I just sort of lose the plot as I
[00:45:23] Jolene: Oh yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:25] nicole: Ali, my brother calls me the extended dance mix version, so we're sisters right
[00:45:32] Jolene: I get that. I get that.
[00:45:33] nicole: Yeah.
[00:45:33] Ali: my brother tells me I dress like a runaway Canadian. So I love, I love a brother who's willing to, to give you that feedback, give you that feedback. Only brothers can give.
[00:45:46] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:46] KaiM: Yes.
[00:45:46] nicole: really good. It's really good.
[00:45:48] Jolene: Oh,
[00:45:49] Ali: We're
[00:45:49] Jolene: you guys, it was so great.
[00:45:51] nicole: yes.
[00:45:51] Jolene: to meet you guys. We are, uh, you are amazing women who have done some amazing work, and so we're honored that you, [00:46:00] uh, could join us today and, um, we hope you get to do more of it. And we hope that you are an example to others that, um, you know, that this work is hard, but it can be done.
[00:46:10] And it, it makes us all better in the long run. So
[00:46:13] nicole: Thank
[00:46:14] Jolene: appreciate you so much.
[00:46:15] Kateri Klingele Pinell: you for having us.
[00:46:16] Ali: Thank you.
[00:46:17] KaiM: us, and thank you for your podcast. This was a lot of fun.
[00:46:20] Ali: This
[00:46:20] Jolene: Oh, thank you.
[00:46:22] nicole: Yay.
[00:46:23] Jolene: you.
[00:46:23] nicole: Yay.
[00:46:24] If you are interested in learning more about the Builders Movement, please check out their website, www.buildersmovement.org.
