Builders not dividers: Voting for character over party
We keep hearing it: don’t talk about politics, religion, or money.
And every time someone says it, I think, that’s exactly why we’re in this mess.
Because the silence doesn’t make the tension go away. It just pushes it underground until it comes out sideways on Facebook, at family dinners, or in the comments section where people act like they’ve never met a human being before.
This week we talked with Stacy Blakeley, the executive director of the Builders Movement, and it felt like we were taking a deep breath. Not because she had some magical “fix America in three steps” plan. But because she kept bringing the conversation back to something we’ve almost forgotten how to do: look for common ground without pretending the differences aren’t real.
Builders is a citizen-first movement built to combat the “us versus them” thinking that’s been sold to us as normal. Stacy called it what it is: the outrage industrial complex. The people who profit off chaos, monetize bad behavior, and keep the rest of us addicted to the drama.
And the most annoying part is… it works.
Outrage gets clicks. Meanness gets rewarded. The loudest voices get the microphone. Meanwhile, the thoughtful majority sits it out, exhausted and convinced nothing will change.
Stacy’s whole point was simple: citizens have to get back in the driver’s seat.
Not as a cute slogan. As a practical strategy.
Because Builders isn’t a think tank. They don’t walk into a room with an agenda and a stack of talking points. They start by listening. Polling. Surveying. Meeting people where they actually live. Then they build guardrails so the conversation doesn’t float off into the universe of “everything is broken.”
They give people facts. They make space for lived experience. And then they do the part most organizations never get to: they help citizens practice.
That’s what Citizen Solutions is.
It’s not a panel. It’s not a debate. It’s not a performative “both sides” photo opportunity.
It’s a carefully selected group of citizens, across race, income, and politics, sitting in a room for three days and doing the hard work of good conflict.
And yes, Stacy admitted it can be a gamble.
Tennessee was the first big one in 2022, tackling guns in a state where the stakes are high and the emotions are higher. They recorded the whole thing. There’s a documentary called Tennessee 11 that shows what it looks like when a Second Amendment absolutist and a teacher who’s lived through school violence sit down and… don’t destroy each other.
They respected each other. They stayed in touch. Two of the participants in the group are now running for office, one on each side.
That’s not kumbaya. That’s civic muscle.
Then there was Wisconsin.
This one hit me in the gut because it’s so practical it’s almost embarrassing that it took this long: extending postpartum care through Medicaid.
Stacy explained how the issue surfaced. It wasn’t imposed. Citizens raised it. Builders learned Wisconsin was one of only two states left that hadn’t extended postpartum coverage. The room tackled it. The work continued for two years. And in March 2026, those citizens stood behind their governor while the legislation they helped shape was signed into law.
That moment matters.
It proves something we’ve been trained not to believe: the system can move when regular people stay in it long enough.
Stacy said their team had that rare nonprofit moment where you look around and go, “It worked.”
And I loved that she didn’t pretend it was instant. It took patience, hope and persistence.
That’s the part we don’t romanticize enough.
We love the viral clip. We hate the two years of follow-up.
The other thing Stacy kept coming back to was the Builders mindset, built around the four C’s: curiosity, creativity, courage, and compassion.
Curiosity is the one we’ve lost first.
Because when your feed only shows you people who already agree with you, you stop listening. You stop asking questions. You start thinking you know.
And then you get mean.
Stacy said something that matched what we’ve seen over and over: people are nice in person.
Even when they disagree.
The mere proximity changes the whole tone. You can still have a feisty conversation (and you should). But it stays human.
Online, it turns tribal fast. People hide behind fake personas. They throw grenades over their phones. And the algorithm keeps feeding them more reasons to stay angry.
We’ve seen it at the most local level too.
Jolene talked about a planning and zoning referendum in rural Missouri, and how something as unglamorous as zoning turned into vitriol on Facebook. That’s where we are now. We can’t even talk about zoning without someone calling someone else a communist.
So what does Builders do about it?
They shape the narrative with high-quality content that models what civil dialogue actually looks like.
And then they build programs that let people practice it.
Because telling someone to “be civil” is useless if they’ve never seen it done.
Stacy also gave us one of the most honest answers of the conversation when we asked what worries her most.
It’s not “the other side.”
It’s the outsized influence of a small group of people who rig the game before it even starts: donors, parties, lobbying power, and the incentive system that rewards extremes.
Her technical term was perfect: the incentives are jacked.
And she’s right.
Congress has approval ratings that hover in the single digits, yet incumbents keep getting re-elected at absurd rates. We say we hate the circus, then we keep buying tickets.
Which is why Builders is trying to change the incentives from the outside.
In Texas, they ran a turnout campaign that was weird enough to work: “Turnout or Rollover,” featuring an armadillo mascot, billboards, sidewalk chalk, and a masked actor reveal. It wasn’t just funny. It was strategic.
Because the people who reliably show up for primaries are often the most ideologically committed. When turnout is 7–10%, you end up with more extreme candidates, and the cycle repeats.
They targeted the thoughtful majority.
And the group that responded most? 18–24-year-old men.
Of course it was. Weird works.
They also built a Builders Index for Texas primary candidates: builder, toss-up, or divider, based on behavior and bipartisan work. Stacy was clear that it’s not perfect, but the point isn’t to tell you who to vote for. It’s to teach you how to evaluate.
Character. Track record. Integrity. Willingness to work with people.
Basic hiring criteria, honestly.
And yet we don’t apply it to the people controlling billions of dollars and writing the rules we live under.
The part that stuck with me most was when Stacy reminded us: small groups have changed the world.
The Federalist Papers. The lunch counter sit-ins. Women in a salon talking about suffrage before it was respectable.
It always starts small.
And then it scales.
So if you’re sitting there thinking, “Who am I to do anything about this?”
You’re exactly who.
You don’t have to be a politician. You don’t have to be a policy expert. You don’t have to have a perfect opinion.
You just have to be willing to stay human.
To stay curious.
To practice good conflict.
And to stop rewarding the people who refuse to see the humanity in anyone who disagrees with them.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Builders Movement: https://buildersmovement.org/
Tennessee 11 Documentary Trailer: https://youtu.be/p-drQKzz2q0?si=ulCjPJeR5xHXtXLl
Bridge Grades: https://www.bridgegrades.org/
Builders Texas Primary Campaign- Turn out or rollover: https://youtu.be/va4dmwxtqXE?si=JqNGa5KdokVFV9yh
Ben Sasse 60 Minutes: https://youtu.be/dDveT8OesWA?si=-gfjZB6j7RHA-kn0
Political Integrity Substack: https://politicalintegrity.us/
Good for the Soul: Raye “Joy”: https://youtu.be/taHYtEGxLnw?si=NpLgzbEJTMapPfMU and the live performance: https://youtu.be/2scS3s_I050?si=bkp9PLF9Mz6AilmR
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[00:00:00] Nicole: She's conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money, and we say that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud.
[00:00:19] Welcome to We've Got to Talk. Welcome Jolene and welcome Stacy Blakely.
[00:00:25] Jolene: Stacy Blakely is the executive director of the Builders Movement. She has over 20 years experience in non-profit management, fundraising, law, marketing, and strategic planning. She is passionate about the power of civic engagement and civil dialogue to transform communities and heal the nation.
[00:00:43] She's a proud wife, mother, and a fifth-generation Texan. Welcome, Stacy. We are so glad to have you here on We've Got to Talk.
[00:00:52] Stacy: I am delighted to be here. You guys, this model for your podcast is, I'm all about this. My career [00:01:00] has been rooted in what you're doing. So thank you both for being so courageous and then having me on.
[00:01:06] Nicole: Of course. Of course. So first of all, we are so excited to be included in the Builders Movement as movement partners, and we, you are the introduction to our audience as to what Builders is. We wanna spread the love, and we want you to tell us in your own words what is the Builders Movement and what drew you to being the executive director.
[00:01:31] Stacy: Thank you for being movement partners. The fact that you guys have signed on to be ambassadors and, uh, cheerleaders and, uh, embodying our mission, that's really what we're about. So Builders is a citizen first movement, and the goal is to combat the us versus them thinking and focus instead on what we have in common- And then [00:02:00] looking to that common ground to build solutions, real lasting solutions.
[00:02:05] And part of this is putting citizens back in the driver's seat, and not only inspiring them, which we have an incredible national audience. Uh, we have about four million social followers. I don't say that to brag, although I might brag on our team- Mm-hmm ... a little bit. But what that shows you is a real hunger that people have for conversations that can cross all of these artificial boundaries that have been created for us, and then let us identify, gosh, what are these common things that we want for ourselves, our families, our businesses?
[00:02:42] And, and Builders is creating a human infrastructure and tools and resources, because I think we all wanna do better, but often we don't know where to start.
[00:02:52] Jolene: Exactly. And, uh, okay, so we've talked about, in several of our episodes, just how the outrage [00:03:00] is, is rewarded in social media, in, in the news, and, and all of that.
[00:03:04] So specifically, how does Builders combat that?
[00:03:08] Stacy: It's in three ways. I would say that the organization, when it was founded, focused largely on that narrative. How do you come against that sort of, what is it, the outrage industrial complex? Yes. I mean, the folks that have monetized ridiculous behavior- Right
[00:03:27] uh, and normalized it, sadly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's, that's one of the things that we push back against with really thoughtful, high-quality content that gives people an example. So when you, when you go to, uh, Builders' Instagram, um, and you dig into not only original content, but then we repost real-world examples.
[00:03:49] Because you can tell people, "Hey, you should engage in civil discourse." Unfortunately, most people are like, "What, what is that? I don't even understand." Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so when you show [00:04:00] them... And so that's really that narrative shaping. And where Builders is evolving, it's one thing to show and set examples, it's another to give people an opportunity to practice it.
[00:04:11] What is it? You know, you, you give some- You can tell somebody all day long, but until they own it And they try it themselves, uh, then it's probably not gonna go much further. And so now we have a series of civic programs, uh, that give people an opportunity. So for instance, civi- uh, Citizen Solutions is one of our programs, you know, when you gather, uh, citizens from a wide spectrum, and they really put this into practice in a difficult, challenging, but extremely hopeful and rewarding way.
[00:04:41] And we're launching more and more tools, I think every day, that give people opportunities to learn, strengthen their ability to engage in good conflict, uh, and then also just to identify, uh, what are common ground solutions, and then Builders gives folks the tools to [00:05:00] advance those. So at the end of the day, what we want is citizens standing around a governor's desk, and they're signing into law legislation that began with conversations about common ground and then progresses through systems that we build and, and help amplify, uh, so that at the end of the day, you can say, "Okay, we have real change because we were willing to be open and curious and courageous."
[00:05:26] Nicole: The Citizen Solutions is so exciting, and the first project, p-please correct me if I'm wrong, Stacy, was in twenty twenty-two in Tennessee, and they talked about gun control. Is that correct?
[00:05:39] Stacy: Yeah, yeah, you're right. So yes, Tennessee was twenty-two.
[00:05:42] Nicole: Right.
[00:05:43] Stacy: Tackling, tackling gun control- Right ... or guns, and you've got to think in Tennessee, the proximity of that particular Citizen Solutions to multiple tragedies that had unfolded.
[00:05:55] Uh, and that was a really interesting sort of [00:06:00] experiment, if you will. What, what Builders does is we try things. We're very entrepreneurial, and we really believe to sort of advance the great experiment, we have to do some experiments and some testing and piloting. And so that particular Uh, Citizen Solutions, it was a bit of a gamble.
[00:06:20] Like, we're gonna put these people in a room. Uh, they're very carefully selected and vetted so that they have a, a high level of representation geographically, socioeconomically, racially, and of course, politically. And, you know, we worked with a group called Convergence so that there was a really strong model in place to ensure quality dialogue, but that was not easy.
[00:06:48] And that whole thing was recorded, so there's a documentary called Tennessee 11 where you can watch this unfold. Uh, and then from there went to Wisconsin, and then most recently, [00:07:00] uh, we had a session last December in Texas.
[00:07:03] Nicole: The Tennessee 11 documentary I will find and put in the show notes so that people can check that out.
[00:07:10] And we're excited because we got to interview three of the 14 people for the Wisconsin Citizen Solutions, which actually your dream came true, and people stood behind the governor in their state and signed, uh, legislation in March of 2026.
[00:07:30] Stacy: I have to tell you, our team, when this came to be, there was this moment for...
[00:07:37] You know, when you work on things as a nonprofit or even as an entrepreneur and you're like, "It worked." Yes. You know, you have that moment, and that was a really satisfying moment. And I have to give a shout-out to our team who was so diligent and patient and persistent. Uh, in particular, our team member that runs this program, Ashley, it's like she just never gave up, and she always, even [00:08:00] after that Citizen Solutions session, I mean, it took two years of persistence in, in order to see this through to that, that winning moment for those citizens.
[00:08:11] Nicole: Can you explain, Stacy, what it was? So, 'cause our audience doesn't know yet.
[00:08:15] Stacy: Yeah. So, uh, you know, one of the things that's important to note about Builders is we are not a think tank. So to-- we don't walk in the door with an agenda and say, "Hey, this is the issue you should cover, and these are your talking points."
[00:08:28] This really was an issue that was surfaced through engaging with citizens in a wide variety of, you know, surveying, polling, meeting, discussions. And we don't-- through that, we learned that there was only two states that had not extended postpartum care provided by Medicaid. So it wasn't an extension. It wasn't never-ending, you know, Medicaid.
[00:08:53] And this was an opportunity. What we found is that- There was a real bipartisan [00:09:00] consensus on this issue. And so we did walk into that room with these citizens bringing this particular policy that had been surfaced by their fellow, was it Wisconsinites? I don't- Yeah ... I don't know what that is. Yeah,
[00:09:15] Jolene: yeah.
[00:09:15] Stacy: They're, they're... Is it fellow cheeseheads or something? I don't, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but, but they had, uh, they had come up with this issue, and so then that's what they tackled. And it's such a logical, practical bit of legislation when you look at this. It's, it's not open-ended. It has criteria. It's very focused in how those taxpayer dollars are serving a very specific population that needs postpartum care, and it, it's, it's, again, it's kind of like, wow, this is a no-brainer.
[00:09:51] There's 48 states, including, like, Texas, who'll never ex- you know, expand or provide anything in, in that realm. Uh, and, [00:10:00] and so that's how that issue surfaced. Then they, they did the citizen solution model, which is, you know, about two days gathered with a facilitator. They learn about the builder's mindset, which we can talk a, a little bit more.
[00:10:13] Uh, but then they really start to dig into, like, okay, how do we find common ground on this issue? And then what are the actual sort of solutions that could result in policy change?
[00:10:23] Jolene: So Stacy, do these topics, like, when... A- as a, as an organization, do you go into these, um, these citizen solutions with, like, a really broad idea of what needs to be decided on, and then within these, within the confines of, of the builder's mindset and, and through, you know, finding that common ground, it kind of then develops into something that you didn't, you didn't anticipate?
[00:10:48] Or how does that, how does that look?
[00:10:50] Stacy: So Texas is actually a really good example of how we structured this recently. And so tons of polling, where do Texans, for instance, have common [00:11:00] ground? And there were a number of issues that surfaced, and it won't surprise you that healthcare just was always consistently, like, in the top two to three issues.
[00:11:09] And so then we thought, "Oh my gosh, healthcare. It's so broad. It's so complex," and especially in the state of Texas, there's some real barriers here. But what we decided to focus on was affordability and access. Let's, let's bring it down just a little bit. We brought in some experts to talk about affordability challenge, access challenges, and then during the course of two days, those citizens came up with seven issues, seven potential solutions, uh, that ranged from telehealth for, uh, mental healthcare, which is an, uh, a particularly difficult issue when you think about the size of Texas and rural access to any healthcare, but let alone mental health.
[00:11:52] So again, really logical- Seems like a no-brainer. You should allow people to have access to telehealth, and they [00:12:00] don't have to be licensed in the state of Texas. We only have one licensed counselor in the state of Texas per eight hundred and twenty-five people. So that's one of those issues that you think, "Okay."
[00:12:12] Wow. So, so that was there. But, but also on the other side, they talked-- they-- th-this particular group of citizens wanted to focus on, uh, transparency, um, giving folks more options when they understand you're at a nonprofit hospital. There are some more options to have services covered. If you wanna pay with cash, tell us, you know, th-th-- there are laws on the books not being enforced, obviously, but it was a range of issues.
[00:12:39] But you have to provide some sort of guardrails. Otherwise, you know, you, you don't land on a, on a set of constructive, uh, actionable solutions. You could spend, you know, two days just trying to nail down in the universe of issues, what is it we're gonna talk about? And we also wanna provide them facts so that they layer in their own lived [00:13:00] experience alongside, uh, facts about the issue.
[00:13:04] But we're also not naive. You have to look at the makeup of your legislature. You have to think about what's viable, and how do you find bipartisan solutions that are not pie in the sky, like, that you can actually take those to the mat and the finish line. And so all of those things are baked in to this model so that you just-- you have the best chance of citizens coming up with a solution and getting it passed.
[00:13:29] Jolene: So would you say that Builders are, are, like, your organization and the Builders movement is more focused on a local level or a state level or a national level? What would be your goal?
[00:13:40] Stacy: Well, we are a national organization, so that audience that I mentioned to you and, and our following, our community, our movement partners and, and, and strategic partner all over the country.
[00:13:52] We decided, I guess almost two years ago, to focus on Texas as a place to be sort of our civic [00:14:00] lab Let's try things out here. Uh, the founder is located here. I'm located here. Um, but we also thought Texas is really a bellwether. I mean, if you look at the economy here and the state, obviously we're like five states in one when you look at the makeup of the rural and fastest growing cities in America.
[00:14:22] And so we are trying these things out now in Texas, a couple of different projects. We're also looking at m- modifying citizen solutions so that Builders doesn't facilitate this, um, big intense session. We equip folks to do these themselves all over the state. And so just this morning we were talking about, okay, we really want them to have an option to work on like a state level issue, but we also...
[00:14:51] If you're the rotary club and you have a local issue on-
[00:14:54] Jolene: Right ...
[00:14:54] Stacy: I don't know, something really exciting like sanitation or wa- water. Water's a [00:15:00] huge issue, and a- Yeah ... many times that's a county level or municipal- Mm-hmm ... level. So now we're gonna test out that model potentially. Again, we're always in this laboratory mode of how can we equip these local groups to engage in some hyper local problem solving, which honestly, that's where the rubber meets the road in this country and where the most gets done.
[00:15:22] Jolene: I will tell you just from a, from a personal standpoint, in Southwest, basically rural Missouri, we just had an election, um, at, in our last elections in, in April, but one of the referendums was about planning and zoning. Mm. And it was so interesting because i- a- again, as a conservative, you think, "No, I w- let's keep government out o- I wanna do it my...
[00:15:47] You know, I own these two acres. Let me do whatever I want with these two acres." However, it was a lot of the conservatives going, "No, that's... You can't just let your neighbor build a, you know, a resort [00:16:00] next door to you and, and have no abs- you know, absolutely no, um, regulations, zoning regulations." And so, but all of this discussion, because we're in rural Missouri, was on Facebook.
[00:16:13] And so it was so interesting to s- to see the back and forth that people were, were taking on this issue, and how some people were, you know, had their names on there, but some people had a different persona on, as they wanted to say something. And it was just so interesting that that's where we are now and how at, at such a local level as whether to eliminate, eliminate your planning and zoning commission, um, took on such, um, vitriol on Facebook of all places.
[00:16:43] I mean, but that's-
[00:16:44] Nicole: Face- ... that's what's happening ... Facebook is where it is. Dealing with, dealing with social media, Stacy, girl. Facebook is like, wow. It's this place where people feel so emboldened to be so mean. It's wild.
[00:16:58] Stacy: You know, it's, it's [00:17:00] so crazy to me because I
[00:17:02] Nicole: thought it was like to share pictures when you were, you know-
[00:17:04] Stacy: I know
[00:17:04] on the lawn- Look at my- ... or something ... yeah, look at my, look at my kids playing soccer. Wow. Like, go back. Yeah. But,
[00:17:10] Nicole: you
[00:17:10] Stacy: know, or, or humble brag, do it, use it for whatever. Whatever. Yeah. But just not this. But, you know, it, it really is interesting. I mean, if you look at... You're probably familiar with the work of Jonathan Haidt and the work that he's done about social media, particularly for adolescents.
[00:17:26] But, but what is so interesting to me, the organization I led before this was national, and you had groups of women primarily that, that, that we were trying to activate as civic leaders, but they had to have a conversation in person, and they would meet and talk about issues. And I went all over the country, I mean, from, from Maine to Arizona, rural to Palm Beach.
[00:17:50] I mean, you know, it was just everything in between. And people say, "Oh, I'm kind of nervous, you know, to have this conversation about this contentious issue in person." And I said, "Here's a shocker. People are [00:18:00] nice in person." They are not- Yes, they are ... they are not going to s- say the things that they would say on social media to your face.
[00:18:11] And in fact, even if you have conversation with disagreement, just the mere proximity means that the, the whole tenor... Now, don't get me wrong. We've had some feisty conversations, but that's productive. That's American. Yeah. Right, right. That's how we're supposed to operate- Right ... as you model all the time.
[00:18:29] Yeah. But, but social media tends to, um, also fuel this tribalism. Yeah. So it's not only the vi- the vitriol that you have between two individuals and, you know, just throwing grenades over their iPhone, uh, but, but what it also does is people are, are so inclined to stick to their bubble. The algorithm, as we know, feeds their bubble.
[00:18:53] Now, I mean, this is all so common knowledge now. But what, what is sad about that is [00:19:00] when you lose that ability to listen to other perspectives, your curiosity is out the window because you're not, you're not curious anymore. You, you know all the answers. You know, that's where we land. That's why Builders is such an important place for these conversations, and you can go to our social media feed.
[00:19:18] You'll see some of this play out on our social as well, but we know we're doing a good job when the conservatives tell us we're a mouthpiece for socialists, and then the, the- ... the liberal, the liberals in the feed tell us we're a mouthpiece for the fascists. And so we're like, "Oh, we nailed it." We're doing our
[00:19:36] Nicole: job.
[00:19:37] Stacy: We nailed it.
[00:19:38] Nicole: So Stacy, what is a Builders mindset?
[00:19:41] Stacy: The Builders mindset, our, our founder, Daniel Lubetzky, he's really spent his entire adult life focusing on ways to bring peace through solutions, unifying folks. His-- He still does incredible work in the Middle East with his [00:20:00] foundation and with organizations, Builders Middle East, uh, and PeaceWorks.
[00:20:04] But that really laid the foundation, and when he started to see, uh, the United States, unfortunately, start slipping into that really deep divide where you dehumanize the other side, and then that leads to violence. And we saw-- we've seen this play out tragically. And so, like, there's a mindset that, that he really has, has l- been leaning into and sort of baked into everything we do, and it's the four C's.
[00:20:32] It is Monday, and I've only had three-fourths a cup of coffee, so I hope I hit all four. Uh, but, but, but curiosity is a big one, uh, that we've discussed. I mean, you, you have to- We can
[00:20:46] Nicole: help you. Creativity.
[00:20:47] Stacy: Yeah. Creativity, which that to me is such an important part of any solutions that we're, that we're gonna find is, gosh, you gotta get outside the typical framework to [00:21:00] be...
[00:21:00] You have to be courageous. Uh, and that's difficult in this world because often courage is not rewarded, especially on social media, and that's why we see so many of our elected leaders who are the opposite of courageous because they can't handle the blowback. Uh, and then the last is compassion, and we have to see each other as human beings, and we have to understand that everybody is bringing their own experiences and their own challenges to the conversation.
[00:21:27] So that mindset really rooted in Uh, open dialogue, uh, respect for the rule of law, love of, of country, but more importantly, love of your neighbor. And, and that is something we wanna foster, and something that, again, our, our founder's done a really great job modeling, but then sewing into the very fabric of our organization, our community, which is, it's a really wonderful place to operate.
[00:21:57] Jolene: If you ever want a feel-good moment, I love [00:22:00] when, when the Builder's Instagram feed, um, feeds me something. And the, the last one that... And I seriously have, I've watched it a couple times now because it was just, it made me feel so good, was when George Bush gave Michelle Obama an Altoid at a funeral. And, like, and he's talking about it.
[00:22:17] That personal connection that you see amongst leaders who are supposed to be divisive and, you know, the, all of that, uh, you see that moment of, that we could all relate to. Mm-hmm. And it completely changes your mindset. I mean, like, oh, yep, we, uh, it just, that makes you feel good.
[00:22:35] Stacy: Well, and one of the things that I find when you post those is people...
[00:22:40] It's funny, because you'll read in the comments, which we engage heavily. Uh, it really is a di- a place for dialogue. But folks will be like, "I never thought I would miss George W." And I'm like, okay. There, there it is. And, uh, and I'm like, well, I'm gonna age myself. I worked on his campaign for governor back in the day, uh- Oh
[00:22:57] against Ann Richards, so that's how [00:23:00] old I am. Oh, wow. But, but they even then, they're, you know, there was humor, there was, you know, they, they, there was... It's politics, right? You know, there's always, always been some, some interesting moments there. But you can see that example, and what I encourage people to do is instead of having nostalgia, "Oh, those days are gone.
[00:23:19] Oh, I really miss that," start trying to live it out, and then support the people that live it out. Stop electing the folks-
[00:23:29] Nicole: Yes ...
[00:23:29] Stacy: that, that absolutely re- refuse to see the humanity in anyone that disagrees with them. Just stop. You're rewarding bad behavior.
[00:23:37] Nicole: That's how our now dear friend, Brad Porteous, who created Bridge Grades, who's also a builder- Mm-hmm.
[00:23:43] He is ... he went, and his website's amazing, and we plug him all the time. We love this website because it's really about, uh, like, paying attention to your leader. Is your, just because your leader is maybe working with a, someone from acro- across the aisle [00:24:00] does not mean that they are bending over to whatever they want.
[00:24:04] Like, and we find that, like, what was astounding to us was that the leaders that got the Fs, we all know them. They're all famous. They're famous. They just- And they
[00:24:15] Stacy: ra- and they raise a lot of money ...
[00:24:16] Nicole: and they raise a lot of money. Yep. It's like, what if we actually voted for people that- tried to make things happen
[00:24:24] Jolene: We're so excited about this Texas, um, th- the Texas race with James Talarico and John Cornyn.
[00:24:31] I mean, you've got two really good human beings going against each other, and it will be so- Which is kind of a bummer ... interesting. Well-
[00:24:38] Stacy: Well, here's the- We hope it's John Cornyn. Sorry ... w- w- as I say- I guess I- We, we, we hope Right We hope. Yeah. Uh, that, you know- Right ... and the, and the thing about- Oh, right, you
[00:24:45] Nicole: don't know, do you?
[00:24:46] You
[00:24:46] Stacy: don't know yet. We do not. You don't know. May, May 26th. So I mean, one of the things that Builders has been working on this year is, uh, we got really engaged in turning out the vote for the primaries. So if you get- Oh, the armadillo
[00:24:59] Nicole: [00:25:00] thing,
[00:25:00] Stacy: right? Yes. Turnout- That was effective ... rollover.
[00:25:03] Nicole: I loved
[00:25:03] Stacy: that. Oh my gosh.
[00:25:05] You
[00:25:05] Nicole: guys. It was
[00:25:05] Stacy: so good. I got, I gotta tell you, I'm so in love with our armadillo. You might even be familiar with this, but, you know, Texas has this Don't Mess with Texas, which started off as a littering, you know, anti-littering campaign. And s- and we're like, "Okay, like, we want the turnout or rollover to be ubiquitous with 'Don't stay on the sidelines.'"
[00:25:27] Because Builders wants to give voice to that thoughtful majority, right? It's the 60 to 70% that are sick of extremes that, uh, get all the attention, right? All the ones that, that the voices that are the loudest are the most extreme. And so we thought, "Okay, this is the most difficult group to get them to turn out.
[00:25:49] You're faithful, diehard, far left or right, they show up for the primaries. But you, you have in cases where we have had as low as like [00:26:00] 7 to 10% turnout. That's crazy. And then, and it's the diehard folks that show up, you end up with more extreme candidates, and then the cycle just repeats itself. And we, our theory of change was, let's speak to a, a, a thoughtful majority that typically sits it out.
[00:26:16] They don't even know when the primary is, so let's just plaster this all over the state of Texas. And so we had billboards, we had guerrilla marketing where we were spray-painting these armadillos all over sidewalks. People are like, "Okay, there's a almost dead-looking chalk drawing." Um, and, and but because it was a little weird, and we had a, a guy with an armadillo mask and live armadillos popping up all over, um...
[00:26:44] But, but you've gotta watch some of the videos. Quite funny. And then we had Zach Levi, if you know him. He's with Shazam. Uh, he was on The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, if you remember. But he's an incredible actor. He lives in Austin. He's this really thoughtful guy. [00:27:00] He, you know, kind of appeals to one political spectrum, and we thought, "Okay, let's have some different folks."
[00:27:05] But at the very end, you'll watch, he reveals, and he's like this masked armadillo that's been running around. Oh, funny. But I say all of that, clearly, I- enamored with our creativity. But I say all of that because going into this with creativity and not having your typical, "Oh, go vote," and, "Your vote matters," this was like, "Oh, wait, what is this?"
[00:27:25] And then they had curiosity, and then they went to find out more. And there were numerous groups. We partnered with March Matters and Texas Matters, and we were the presenting sponsor of The Tribune's Voters Guide. Like, we just got out there as much as possible, trying to explain to people that if you'll go into this and really evaluate the candidates, which I can tell you a little bit more about that, um, and look for the builders, that you can have an impact on the primaries.
[00:27:54] We had historic turnout in the Texas primary. We can't take full credit [00:28:00] for that. There's a lot of things animating people's decision to go, but we, we know we were part of it, and we did surveying about awareness. But here's the kicker, is the group that loved our campaign and responded to it were 18 to 24-year-old males.
[00:28:17] Which, that's 'cause it was weird, right? But-
[00:28:21] Jolene: That
[00:28:21] Stacy: is such an important group to activate- Right ... who just sit it out. And so that for us motivates us to think about what are other creative ways that we can get out the vote and, and, and get these folks to quit being so apathetic? 'Cause in that runoff, bringing this full circle, even fewer people show up, and by some calculations, your vote is like 25 times more impactful in a runoff than in the general because so few people show up, and it, it matters so much.
[00:28:53] Jolene: Yes. And so are you, are there efforts then from builders in this runoff?
[00:28:59] Stacy: Yes. [00:29:00] So we're, we're running campaigns around this. It's obviously a smaller footprint because of the number of statewide races, uh, but we are actively gonna start, um, really next week, start pushing that out there to make sure people...
[00:29:14] We reminded everybody last week to register, but one of the, you know, interesting things, people think, "Oh, I didn't vote in the primary, I can't vote in the runoff." Yes, you can. You, you know, you can still do that. And so, and voter education about the dates, the processes, the locations sounds so basic, but it's incredibly important.
[00:29:32] Uh, so we'll have the campaign during the runoff. We will do a lot around midterms. But one of the things that we introduced during the primaries that, uh, similar to what Brad does at that national level with Bridge Grades, we did it at the state level for all 524 primary candidates, and utilized sort of those qualities of a builder.
[00:29:55] We y- utilize AI and algorithms and human intelligence [00:30:00] to, to give you a, an index. It's the, the builder's index. Um, and you c- they say, "Okay, here's their score. Are they a builder? Are they a toss-up? Are they a divider?" And looking at, do they work on bipartisan issues? And, uh, you know, it's not a perfect system.
[00:30:17] We're still tweaking it, but we thought, "You know what? We're gonna give this a shot so that people can make up their own minds, evaluate." All the sources are there, just like Brad. M- Brad inspired us, you know, to have everything where you can click and look at the algorithms. But we think that's an important tool that hopefully, uh, in, in not a very distant future, we can roll that out at the state level and maybe even the local level all over the country.
[00:30:42] That's really the, the, the long-term plan for that. So you can say, "Is this a builder or a divider?"
[00:30:47] Jolene: Right.
[00:30:47] Stacy: It doesn't matter what party.
[00:30:48] Jolene: Do you have any politicians that are builders right now?
[00:30:52] Stacy: So we do, actually. So again, another Texas experiment. Uh, we launched a C4 [00:31:00] during the primary. It was very rapid and very builderly of us.
[00:31:04] We just jumped in and did it. And, uh, and so the C4 is a separate entity, obviously, than the C3. It's independent, and we engaged in some evaluation of clients, so the Builder's Index sort of lives there. But then we also looked for some builderly clients to support through the C4, through awareness and, and highlighting their builderly qualities.
[00:31:27] So we just picked four, two Dems, two Republicans, and tested that out. Three of the four won their races, and again, we can't take full credit for that, but their turnout was far higher, uh, on both sides. So again, we just think awareness and giving people the ability to critically think about the candidates.
[00:31:46] We don't wanna tell you who to vote for. We wanna tell you how to evaluate them. And so that, that is one of those things where I would like to see, uh, us have a, you know, a builder's caucus. We would love to start working with freshmen, incoming [00:32:00] lawmakers, train them on the builder's mindset. Hmm. And so we're trying to look at the full spectrum of engagement from your citizen who's curious, your citizen who's ready to do some work, your citizen that actually wants to go testify on the Hill and get more political or run for office, all the way to l- how do we start changing the incentives so that political leaders and elected folks start listening to the will of the people?
[00:32:27] And part of that is holding them accountable. Are you a builder? Are you a divider?
[00:32:31] Nicole: I mean, honestly, Stacy, it wasn't until I discovered Brad on Facebook, that was a positive thing, on Facebook- See, there's, there's,
[00:32:39] Stacy: there's good ...
[00:32:40] Nicole: Yeah, there's good. And we interviewed him and talked to him. I w- I was like, "Oh, I-- maybe I would vote for someone that wasn't a Democrat."
[00:32:51] Like, it's never occurred to me. So I mean, I was- ... I, you know, I was so psyched to be a voter at 18, and [00:33:00] I knew I was a Democrat, but it was never like, "Oh, you mean- It's about working together versus just standing in our grounds and finding... I mean, Brad said that I'm sort of an anomaly in this, but I thought this is, to me, so liberating to look at the political landscape in this way, to actually look at a candidate and say, "Do you say what you mean?
[00:33:23] Do you mean what you say? Do you have integrity? Are you honest? Are you kind? Are you willing to work with people?" Versus like, "Well, you're not a rep- a Democrat, so I'm not voting for you."
[00:33:35] Stacy: I don't think you're anomaly. 45% of Americans are identifying as independents, and we're not giving- Well, there you go
[00:33:40] them good choices. There you go. We've got a prim- a primary system that forces you to choose-
[00:33:45] Jolene: Right ...
[00:33:45] Stacy: in many states. Uh, and, you know, Texas shockingly is still an open primary. Uh, but, but once you log in- Wait,
[00:33:53] Jolene: so can I interrupt you for a second, Stacy? W- so does that mean in this runoff between Paxton and Cornyn, that, that you can [00:34:00] be a Democrat and vote in this runoff?
[00:34:02] Stacy: Yeah, so, so the thing that's interesting, like once you vote, so like if you voted one way in the primary, you don't get to switch, okay? Okay. Oh, okay. But you can come in, in most states, you register, you're a Democrat- Right ... you're a Republican, and that's where primary you get to participate in. Here, you can choose.
[00:34:18] So if you're a Democrat and the, the, the candidate that you really wanna support is a Republican, you can do that. I mean, at the end of the day, there needs to be reform so that we can all just make choices based on character, based on their track record experience. I mean, if you think about the fundamentals, if you own a business, like these are basic like low bar for me to hire somebody.
[00:34:42] Right. We don't even get to like utilize that criteria on somebody that controls, you know, for instance, you know, billions of dollars of a, of a state budget, and you just think, "Wow, okay, I didn't get to look at their character. I had to choose by party." So, and the parties don't, don't necessarily... well, not necessarily, they don't really [00:35:00] reflect the majority of citizens anymore.
[00:35:03] So I, I just think that 45% of Americans that are saying, "Hey, I, I wanna have more choices," needs to be listened to. Um, but I think you also need to look at, you know, congressional approval ratings. What is it? 8% of Americans- Yeah ... approve of Congress, and then their re-election ra-
[00:35:22] Jolene: Which is equal to how much we approve of North Korea.
[00:35:28] Wow.
[00:35:29] Stacy: Great.
[00:35:29] Jolene: How about that comparison?
[00:35:30] Stacy: Wow. You guys are killing it. Uh, but, but, but then look at the re-election rates. I mean, it's like- Oh my gosh ... 80%. Yes. 80% or more like get re-elected. I'm, I don't... that's not an exact stat, but it's close. And you think, "What are we doing?" Like the, the- Yeah ... definition of insanity, right?
[00:35:47] Nicole: Yes. Exactly.
[00:35:47] Stacy: And, and it's, it's a system, it, the system is set up in that way, and I think that's the other thing about being a builder is we want you to be courageous enough to question, is this the only way?
[00:35:59] Jolene: Right. [00:36:00]
[00:36:00] Stacy: Could we do better?
[00:36:00] Jolene: Okay. Stacy, what gives you the most optimism in our country right now?
[00:36:05] Stacy: Talking to citizens in just about every citizen- uh, every setting, and when we do have the Citizen Solution, it is really a really hopeful experience. For instance, in Tennessee, which is a great example, you had a, a Second Amendment absolutist. You had a teacher who had, you know, friends and colleagues that experienced violence in their schools.
[00:36:30] And so you think how in the world could these two ever sit down together? And they did, and they respected each other, and they still keep in touch with each other. And two of the, I guess, 12 folks that participated in Citizen Solutions in Tennessee are running for office, one on each, you know, side. Wow.
[00:36:48] Nicole: Wow.
[00:36:49] Stacy: Yeah. And so that g- gives me hope that if you get people to a place where they start thinking, "I am empowered-
[00:36:56] Nicole: Yes ...
[00:36:56] Stacy: and I do- Yeah ... and I, and I do have some agency over this," [00:37:00] you, you will be surprised, and you will be filled with hope because there is change that is possible, and it is you, it's me, and we need to stop waiting for someone else to jump in.
[00:37:14] Uh, and, and I'm really hopeful when, when I see this happening over and over again, not just through builders, but you just look around in your community, and it's like what Mr. Rogers says, "Look for the helpers."
[00:37:29] Jolene: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:30] Stacy: Look for the, look for the builders, too- Yeah ... because those are the folks that are gonna give you some hope.
[00:37:34] Jolene: What worries you the most?
[00:37:35] Stacy: What worries me the most is the outsize influence of a very small group of people on the elected officials, on the outcomes or the gridlock, and whether that is the parties, the donors that control parties, the lobbying, extremely powerful lobbying groups. [00:38:00] It, it concerns me how the system is set up right now so that those folks on the inside, they're able to kinda rig the game before it even starts.
[00:38:14] And, and I d- I don't say that to make citizens hopeless 'cause you can still get in the game, and we see you make change, but it is a little bit of a David and Goliath scenario. We know that. And so it's gonna take more organizations and institutions and elected officials going against their self-interest.
[00:38:34] I mean, everybody just needs to watch the Ben Sasse 60 Minutes, uh- Mm. Mm ... over and over- Yes ... and over again because he articulates it in a way with clarity that Again, you should watch it over and over. But until we have folks that have that level of conviction to change, to push against that very powerful but small group of extremes or highly [00:39:00] self-interested folks, uh, that, that's what worries me.
[00:39:03] The incentive system is, is, is jacked right now, to use- Mm-hmm ... a really technical term.
[00:39:10] Nicole: Stacy, do you know, uh, I d- I'm not that familiar with it, but on Substack, it's a group called Political Integrity. Oh. It's a new Substack, and I'll put it in the show notes. But they are doing... They are working with politicians that are running to take the pledge to take no money, to t- Ah
[00:39:31] I mean, it's... A- and to... And I will... I don't know that much about it, I'm just brand new to it, but I'm super excited about it, and I thought- Haven't seen it ... maybe builders should know about it or we should all know about it. I,
[00:39:42] Stacy: yeah, 'cause they're trying to fund crowdsource their campaigns. I did see something could be similar to that.
[00:39:48] I think more groups like that, um. I also think if you, there are some groups that are doing some really amazing work to help lawmakers [00:40:00] engage in bipartisanship- Yeah, yeah ... without it hurting them. So it's almost like they run cover to help change narrative and give these folks runway to do that. But I also think, and, and again, that helps shield them from some group that they tick off, and then they run ads against them in the primary, right?
[00:40:16] You gotta think about that dynamic. Um, but I think more groups, and I will say, Nicole, more groups on the right need to be engaging in some of this courageous reform. When you look at democracy reform, a lot of those groups are center, center left, and so it's like everybody needs to come to the table with some reality checks.
[00:40:39] Yeah. Uh, and it, I just, I mean, what a dream scenario is there's no fundraising. Everybody gets a set amount, which it's like this in other countries. This is, "Here's what you get to go campaign. Hit the trail. Stop buying, you know, $20 million worth of ads that run- Yep ... in Ames, Iowa." [00:41:00] Yeah, yeah. And, and, uh- Yeah
[00:41:02] and, and, you know, it's good for the ad economy in Iowa. Right, right. They probably don't like me saying that. But, but it's just there's, there's the system in, on so many levels could be reformed and, and but at, at this stage of the game, you, you're not gonna see that, uh, based on where we are with the Supreme Court rulings.
[00:41:21] And so we all just need to start holding those politicians accountable.
[00:41:24] Nicole: I wanna go back for a second because I think it's interesting 'cause I can't believe the liberal is gonna shout out to the le- to the right. But this is also what I'm learning, 'cause you said s- there's more groups that are center left that are working on this.
[00:41:38] One thing I'm also i- curious about is that- And what I'm learning is a lot of the conservatives out there are afraid to say that they're conservative.
[00:41:48] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:49] Nicole: And so I don't, I think p- that's part of the issue, is that, like, even on your Facebook, uh, discussion Jolene and the Ozarks about, like, giving a [00:42:00] fake, uh, persona to tell how they feel about something.
[00:42:05] Because I do believe that liberals, I love you, I'm one of you, but we can be real jerks. We can be real harsh and real know-u- know-it-all-y, and the conservatives don't wanna be shamed. I don't blame 'em. Mm-hmm. So I feel like there's go- we've all gotta take some responsibility here, and I know I'm gonna get- Yeah
[00:42:27] pushback from my liberals for, for saying that, but it's true. Like, we need to, I think, all be brave, all be courageous. Here's a perfect example, and then we can move on to the, to all the fun stuff. But I had the privilege of going to Jolene's eldest daughter's wedding in February in Austin, or outside Austin.
[00:42:46] So, um- Great.
[00:42:47] Jolene: Dripping Springs ...
[00:42:48] Nicole: in Dripping Springs. Yeah. And the day before, I was dealing with the Facebook, and people were real pissed, real pissed. And I was... It was one of those gutted days where I was like- Mm ... [00:43:00] "Can I, can we keep doing this podcast? I am s- I'm so-" Mm ... "gutted by the hate." And the hate was from my side to me.
[00:43:09] Or not to me. They don't know. Now they know. But a, like, I deal with the, uh, the, the social media. And I was like, "I'm supposed to be on a little vacation. I forgot my d- my, my laptop, and I'm dealing with the Facebook on my phone." And people are mean. Like, mean. And I'm just thinking, "Well, I'm not gonna bug Jolene because she's about to have her daughter get married.
[00:43:33] So I'm just gonna handle this shit by myself and just..." But I, I felt- Such a good friend. Right. But I was like- Such a
[00:43:39] Stacy: good
[00:43:39] Nicole: friend. But I was like, I felt that David g- and Goliath energy, like, are we idiots trying to do this? Like, what are we doing? Who do we think we are? Girl, the next day I go to that wedding, and I had, I'd forgotten that we're on YouTube, so I was recognized.
[00:43:57] And so people, the guests were coming, all [00:44:00] these conservative frien- family members and friends of Jolene's, and one in particular was like, "Hi, I'm a conservative. Can I talk to you? I have some questions. Please don't be mad at me, and I love you." And I was like, "Well, that's a lot, and yes." Let's go do it And I will not yell at you.
[00:44:21] I will listen to you, and I will try to understand why you're, why you're afraid, why you're afraid to admit that you're a conservative to me. Like, it was the absolute 180 where I was like, "Oh, now I know why we're doing this podcast. Now I know." Mm-hmm. Here is, here is- Yes,
[00:44:39] Stacy: yes and amen ...
[00:44:40] Nicole: right? Yes and amen.
[00:44:41] Yeah. Here's little David, and here we are. Yep. Is it- is David the good... David's the good one, right?
[00:44:46] Stacy: Yes. Yes. Stephanie's laying it out. Right. Here's the thing. I wanna give you two just a little piece of encouragement, and I, and I've, I've talked about this for years 'cause this is a big part of, of my [00:45:00] life's work, right?
[00:45:01] Is, is that small groups have changed the world. A s- very small group of people with deep conviction and, and sometimes a novel approach, a radical different idea. I mean, look at our founding. It's America's 250th birthday coming up. That's a small group of people. It's a few folks writing the Federalist Papers.
[00:45:27] Talk about anonymous, right? They're trying to, like, just not be hung by the king. And, and so they had a lot more at stake than we do on Facebook. And just saying, those, those og- ... the OG builders had a lot more going on. Uh, but look at that. I mean, look at a lun- look at a lunch counter at a Woolworth's. Yes.
[00:45:47] Look at the women's suffrage movement and a, a small group of women sitting in a salon, uh, having these conversations. And it, it's small groups. That's where this starts. And, and, and I think [00:46:00] for builders, our thought is we wanna take that small group, and we want 10, 15 million people who say, "I'm gonna hold these elected officials accountable.
[00:46:12] I'm gonna do the hard work. I'm gonna open my mind." And you've gotta have scale, but man, you gotta start somewhere. And I just wanna applaud the two of you for the audience you're building and the conversations you're having. It's essential. Don't lose hope.
[00:46:27] Nicole: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:46:29] Jolene: Thank you. That's sweet. Woo!
[00:46:30] All right. So speaking of good, Nicole?
[00:46:34] Nicole: Uh, yes. So, uh, Stacy, do you have a good for the soul for our audience?
[00:46:44] Stacy: Everybody has their get ready song, I think, sometimes. Like, you just need it. And so- That walk-up
[00:46:49] Nicole: song ...
[00:46:50] Stacy: oh, it's the walk-up song, and no one- Yeah ... sees you, but you need it to kinda give you a little moment. Mm-hmm. And so I have been listening, thanks to my [00:47:00] 25-year-old daughter, uh, almost 25, Raye, her new song Joy.
[00:47:06] Nicole: All right.
[00:47:06] Stacy: Go listen. It's with her two sisters. It is beautiful, and it is really rooted. It is joy comes in the morning And it is really good stuff. And sidebar, I am driving after this podcast to Austin to take my daughter to see her in concert tonight. So I get to have my- Oh, that's amazing ... morning, my morning psych song in person tonight.
[00:47:30] But I, I would- Aw ... encourage everybody, if you need a new lifty-up song, it's Joy by Raye.
[00:47:37] Nicole: I'll put it in the show notes so that we can all enjoy it. Okay. Oh, I can't wait
[00:47:40] Jolene: to
[00:47:40] Nicole: listen to it now. Me too. Me too. Me
[00:47:42] Jolene: too. So now we play the would you rather game. We love this game because it makes you think, um, about things that maybe you don't want to choose.
[00:47:53] And you played into this so well, Stacy, because you have already touched on this, and so now I'm gonna make it really difficult [00:48:00] on you.
[00:48:00] Stacy: Oh, no.
[00:48:06] Jolene: Stacy, would you rather eliminate lobbyists or political action committees? I know.
[00:48:15] Stacy: PACs.
[00:48:18] Jolene: Really?
[00:48:19] Stacy: Mm-hmm. Because that's where... Different types of PACs, right? Is where you get massive infusion of cash, and you, you have a very hard time figuring out where it came from. And- And the super PACs and, yeah ... the super PACs.
[00:48:38] And so that to me, again, I would really like to give everybody 50 bucks and say good luck, but, uh, you know- ... with your campaign. But, uh, you know, and, and then they don't even have enough to buy a social media ad. Oops. Okay. Get out and see everybody. Uh, I wanna go back to the train campaign, uh- The
[00:48:57] Jolene: whistle stops and, yeah
[00:48:58] Stacy: whistle stop campaign. I'm an [00:49:00] old lady. Uh, but- ... but I think I would do that because not all lobbyists are bad. Lobbyists often are... They're, they're groups that- Okay ... represent nurses. They are groups that are looking at innovative ways- Yeah, that's fair ... to educate our children. And so while there could, there are some tough lobbyists, uh, they are humans too.
[00:49:21] Uh, and there are some builders. Uh, you'd be surprised, there's builders that are lobbyists, so.
[00:49:26] Jolene: Oh, wow. That's good. Okay. That's good. Well, that does make me feel a little more encouraged then. Okay, good.
[00:49:31] Stacy: Okay.
[00:49:32] Jolene: All right. Do you have one for us?
[00:49:34] Stacy: Yes. Because I think that we vilify leaders, and we cast them all as, "Oh, you're just horrible, and you make all these evil decisions," right?
[00:49:44] Especially with the world. So I was gonna say, would you rather be the CEO of ChatGPT- ... or the President of the United States?
[00:49:57] Jolene: Oh, God.[00:50:00]
[00:50:01] Nicole: I wanna be the President of the United States
[00:50:05] Jolene: And, and we've kind of talked about we'd be really good co-presidents. So I mean, you've got the conservative and the liberal together. Mm-hmm. And, um- Oh, y'all be great. Wouldn't we be good? And we've just recently discovered that, um, menopausal women are probably, like, the best women to have because...
[00:50:22] In, in elected office because n- number one, we're up at 3:00 in the morning, you know, thinking about all the things. Our brain is nonstop going. 100%. Um, we, we would fix climate change because- Quick ... I mean, y- y- we could have a hot flash, and we're like, "Yeah, do, get, just I'll sign it. Just give it to me right now-
[00:50:39] and it'll sign, it will sign it." And our libido is a little bit low right now, and so, like, you're not gonna see us- Well, we can work on that ... sending any inappropriate pics to anybody or getting into any trouble- ... in a hotel room with a
[00:50:53] Nicole: video-
[00:50:53] Jolene: Yep ... or-
[00:50:53] Nicole: That's our Catholic right there. Just, just wanna- You know
[00:50:56] let everybody know.
[00:50:57] Stacy: You know, you know what? We're keeping it
[00:50:59] Nicole: real. [00:51:00]
[00:51:00] Stacy: If you look at the- If you look at the scandals, though, we've got some women that have engaged in some- Oh ... fairly questionable behavior lately. I know. Oh,
[00:51:09] Nicole: my gosh.
[00:51:09] Stacy: And I'm not sure if they've hit, hit the, uh, special time in their lives or not, but man- Wow
[00:51:15] you're, they're, they're, it's equal opportunity gross behavior lately. Yeah, it's wild. Well, not well played. Seriously. It's wild. Not well played. And it's abuse of power. Yeah. Like, you're seeing- Yes ... it, it's, it's- Yeah ... it's, it's universally available clearly now 'cause, like- Yes ... you, these are women in high levels of power abusing it financially and sex, like, sex scandal-wise, and you're like, "Come on."
[00:51:40] Jolene: How in the world? I, I, yeah, I just,
[00:51:43] Nicole: ugh. I, I mean, the pow- the power must be blinding 'cause it doesn't make any sense, right? We're in a world where there's no privacy, and so where do you think they're gonna get away- Well, and
[00:51:53] Stacy: there's not a ton of accountability. There's not a ton of accountability. Well, there's, I guess there's not.
[00:51:56] Right? Like, think about some of the scandals, I don't [00:52:00] know, in the '90s that wiped out people's political careers. Yes. Like, there was a whiff of, you know, they'd gone hiking with their, or camping with their mistress- ... and the whole career was over, right? Right, right. And now look at what we tolerate. Mm-hmm.
[00:52:15] Yeah. And so to me- Right ... I just think it's been so normalized. No offense. Mm-hmm. It was normalized by a lot of men, and so for the women, I don't, I don't think there's this barrier anymore. It's like- Mm-hmm ... I can do whatever I want because- Mm-hmm ... you know, I'm going Fifth Avenue, bang, bang. Mm-hmm. Like, I can do whatever I want.
[00:52:33] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Jolene, do you wanna be the ChatGPT CEO? She uses it. I'm so against AI, so it's It, I would be the dumbest CEO Oh my gosh I'd be like, "Yeah, let's
[00:52:44] Jolene: stop it." I mean, I, I, iChat everything. Me too. Like, I- You chat everything ... we have, we have a tarantula. We iChat everything. There's a tarantula that we found as we were doing some plantings this weekend in our front.
[00:52:55] I am, like, doing a deep dive on tarantulas right now. I go [00:53:00] into chat, and what are their mating habits, and where do they live, and how do I... Do I protect her? Is she, is she poisonous? She's not poisonous. Great. Well, how do I... I'm a huge chat person.
[00:53:08] Stacy: You know, my, my boyfriend is Claude. Uh- Yes. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm
[00:53:13] and, and we, we spend way too much time together. Yes. Uh- Yep ... but you know what's interesting on that, if you think about which seat you're gonna sit in, my younger daughter, she actually works in the Senate. Sh- and she's a newbie right out of college. But, you know, her focus is AI and ethics and policy. And for, for, I ask this question 'cause you think which, whether you're, let's say, CEO of Anthropic now, honestly, I think they're gonna have more of an impact, but the power that is vested in the hands of a couple of people, uh, it has the potential to transform our world in a way that no elected leaders ever have.
[00:53:54] And 'cause they're not elected, there's n- you know, it's like all the power in the world in the hands of, [00:54:00] of s- very few people. So I do think it's a very interesting moment. Like, who, who has more power to save us or destroy us?
[00:54:10] Jolene: Right. Right. 100%, yeah. Yeah.
[00:54:13] Stacy: Food for thought. Food for thought on a Monday.
[00:54:15] Nicole: It was like, "And on that note."
[00:54:17] Jolene: Wow. Be
[00:54:18] Nicole: a builder.
[00:54:19] Jolene: Wow.
[00:54:20] Stacy: Join
[00:54:21] Jolene: us a- join us again on We've Got to Talk. Be
[00:54:24] Stacy: a, be a builder if they don't, if the robots don't come. I mean, no, that's not the- Exactly. ... that, and, and, and, but to your point, there is some amazing things that we're gonna be able to do with AI, from curing diseases to, you know, special needs folks are gonna have access to things they've never had access to, and mobility and all of that.
[00:54:46] And so what we need, whether it's the White House or the boardroom, are people that are looking at the long game, what is best for humanity, and it's just like everything [00:55:00] else. Can you put the self-interest lower on that list, please? And think about the impact of what you're doing on everyone else. That is a builder-ly mindset
[00:55:10] Jolene: Yeah, 100%.
[00:55:12] Oh, Stacy, this has been such a great conversation. Yes, thank you so much. We are so appreciative of you coming on and, and, and talking to us. Thank you so much for letting us be builders- Oh, I'm so glad you are ... um, with
[00:55:25] Stacy: you.
[00:55:25] Jolene: Yes. Uh, we just, we so align with what you're doing- Yes ... and, and so appreciate, um, all that Builders does.
[00:55:32] Stacy: Well, y'all are living it out. Keep on keeping on.
[00:55:35] Nicole: Thank you, Stacy. Thank you. We've Got to Talk is produced across the world by the wildly talented, creative, and hilarious team at Bamby Media. Our theme song is Jump Jive Swing by Space Train Unlimited. Thank you so much for listening, and join us every week for another episode of We've Got to Talk.
