New Pluralists Is Betting $40 Million that Americans Can Still Get Along | Liz Vogel
“Underneath every complaint is a hope.”
Liz Vogel quoted that during our recent conversation and it really made Jolene and I take a pause. It’s so true. The angry post. The rant at the school meeting. The neighbor who won’t stop talking about how everything’s gone downhill. Half the time it’s not really a complaint. It’s someone trying, badly, to say, “Do you see me?” or “Do you care what this feels like?” or “Can someone please help?”
Liz is the Executive Director of New Pluralists, a cross-ideological initiative working on what most of us say we want and then avoid doing in real life, which is learning how to live together in a divided country without trying to change each other’s minds. She’s also training as a death doula, which sounds unrelated, but the more she explained it, the more it felt like the same work in a different setting. When you sit with people at the end of life, you quickly learn that being seen and understood is everything.
New Pluralists is a funder collaborative, which means they pool resources and invest in organizations across the US that are doing the hard, local work of bridging divides. This is the work that helps communities build cooperation, reduce isolation, and stay in relationship even when they disagree. Their goal isn’t to create a country where everyone thinks the same. It’s to create a culture where difference doesn’t automatically turn into contempt.
Pluralism isn’t meeting in the mushy middle. It’s not watering down your beliefs until nobody’s offended. It’s learning how to live in a diverse society while still solving problems together. It’s asking, “How do we want to be together?” and “How do we work together?” without demanding that everyone give up their convictions to earn a seat at the table.
This is where the “complaint and hope” quote lands for us. A lot of what we call division is really a breakdown in belonging. People don’t feel listened to, so they get louder. They don’t feel respected, so they get sharper. They don’t feel seen, so they start performing. And then we all look at each other like enemies and wonder how it got this bad.
Liz made it clear that it’s not about winning. It isn’t to convert someone. It’s to humanize each other again. To remember that the person across from you is not a symbol or a stereotype. They’re a whole person with a story, a family, a fear, and a reason they believe what they believe.
New Pluralists are building towards a culture where we can stay in the room. Where we can hold convictions without turning them into weapons. Where we can hear a complaint and listen for the hope underneath it, instead of treating the person as a problem to shut down.
If we can get back to that, the country doesn’t have to feel like a permanent fight. It can feel like a place where people still belong to each other, even when they don’t agree.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
New Pluralists Website: https://newpluralists.org/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/newpluralists/posts/?feedView=all
LinkedIn Liz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lizvogel23/
Liz's Good for the Soul: https://goodreads.com/book/show/43708884.The_Boy__the_Mole__the_Fox_and_the_Horse
LINKS:
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/wevegottotalk/
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/weve-got-to-talk/id1797423701
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0qJVgTvjciUffRmoUienx2
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[00:00:00] nicole: She's conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money, and we say that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud.
[00:00:19] Welcome to We've Got to Talk. Welcome, Liz Vogel.
[00:00:24] Jolene: Liz Vogel is the executive director of New Pluralists, a cross-ideological funder that supports organizations bridging divides across America. Liz is also training as a death doula. She noticed that people facing the end of life often set aside their differences to show up for each other, a realization that now shapes her approach to pluralism.
[00:00:46] Welcome, Liz Vogel, to We've Got to Talk.
[00:00:49] Liz Vogel: Uh, thank you so much, Nicole and Jolene. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:00:54] Jolene: Thank
[00:00:54] nicole: you. We are so excited to have you. Can we go a little back into your story and talk about who you [00:01:00] are and what brought you to this work? 'Cause you're fairly new to the New Pluralists community.
[00:01:06] Is that correct?
[00:01:07] Liz Vogel: That's correct, yes. Um, I spent the first chapter of my career inside a nonprofit education organization, um, that was, you know, really focused on helping teachers and their students, um, look at history and the choices that people made at really difficult moments in history as a lens to help young people think about their own sort of moral and ethical choices today.
[00:01:34] And I share that as the starting point because I think my work, but also my life, has kind of been animated around the question of why we as humans, um, tend to create or need to create sort of an other. Um, and that happens like, you know, any kind of group belonging necessarily defines itself by who's in and who's out, [00:02:00] and it's, you know, that in and of itself is part of human behavior, and but the dynamic between how we move from, like, us and them to, like, us versus them has always been, I think, a central question I've held even since I was, like, a very young person, in my experience and also what I saw in the world.
[00:02:20] And so, um, after more than 20 years inside that one organization where I felt so enriched by the learning that I was able to do continually and the impact I was able to have, I was interested in sort of culture in a larger sense, um, the norms and habits and relationships that hold us together as communities.
[00:02:43] And so that's really what brought me to New Pluralists with the focus on culture change in those ways and not just education, which is a super important, um, vehicle for change, but not the only way to do so.
[00:02:56] Jolene: Uh, tell us where you went to school.
[00:02:58] Liz Vogel: Sure. So I mean, I grew up on the [00:03:00] Jersey Shore in New Jersey- Ah
[00:03:01] and then in high school moved to Las Vegas. So I finished high school in Las Vegas- Ooh ... which is, like, a whole- That could be a whole podcast episode. Um-
[00:03:10] Jolene: Okay.
[00:03:11] Liz Vogel: But then I moved, kept moving west. I went to Pomona College- Okay ... for my undergraduate degree in, sort of outside of Los Angeles, California. And then I s- have stayed basically in California, and lived both in northern California and back now in southern California.
[00:03:24] Jolene: Tell us what is New Pluralists, and what's the goal of it?
[00:03:28] Liz Vogel: Sure. So New Pluralists is a cross-ideological funder collaborative investing in a culture of respect and belonging for all in the US, right? So we envision a, a world, or, you know, our country, in which people care for each other across our differences, hold curiosity about how our differences make us stronger, and that we can show up for each other.
[00:03:55] So as a funder collaborative, it's this, an interesting, strange entity. Our funders come [00:04:00] and pool their dollars together, and then together decide where to invest, in terms of making grants to organizations and projects in communities that are doing the really hard and patient work of bridging divides or bringing communities together across their differences.
[00:04:17] And some of the early funders realized that they were funding some of the same efforts individually- They were not in relationship necessarily themselves. They thought, "Okay, well, what more could we do together than- Mm ... any one of us might do on our own? And if we're saying that it's really important for people out there to be able to connect across their differences, maybe we should practice that ourselves, and maybe we should figure out what it really looks like to wrestle with our own differences in how social change happens, or in how to allocate dollars."
[00:04:53] Because tho- that's not something that is common in philanthropy, and so they [00:05:00] wanted to kind of walk the talk. And that's what we do to this day. We are essentially about the practice of pluralism, and really through the lens of investing in work that helps to increase, like, belonging and social trust and cooperation in communities, and for the groups and organizations that are committed to doing that work.
[00:05:24] Jolene: Are you funding, um, companies that want to make sure that their employees are seeing each other and working with each other, or are you funding organizations? What... Tell me.
[00:05:37] Liz Vogel: Yep. We're funding, um, 501[c][3] organizations, um, and w- they, we work and fund across a number of types of fields and organizations.
[00:05:47] But as an example, we just recently, um, made a set of grants to seven projects, all run by nonprofit organizations cl- and working in collaboration with each other, looking at issues [00:06:00] about, um, you know, things like housing. They're working on issues like AI disruption in communities. They're holding, they're holding citizens assemblies in their communities.
[00:06:09] They're creating neighborhood coalitions as economic redevelopment is coming into their communities, but they realize that, that you can't just have economic development or, you know, real estate development happening if you're not attending to how the neighbors get to know neighbors, and how people get to have a say in what happens in their communities.
[00:06:29] So we fund that type of 501[c][3] work, and we have also funded research that contributes to how we know how to measure things like belonging or cooperation. We've funded... You know, so we're kind of in that realm. But predominantly, we're funding nonprofit organizations in communities or that work across communities to help bridge divides in different ways.
[00:06:55] nicole: This is a fairly new, uh, foundation. Is, is... What would you call it? Is it a [00:07:00] comp- So we- What do you, what do you call it?
[00:07:01] Liz Vogel: Yeah. What do you- We, we are jargon. I mean, we're- Mm-hmm ... an, we are an intermediary. Okay. So there, so because we are not a foundation. Okay. We don't have an endowment.
[00:07:09] nicole: Okay.
[00:07:10] Liz Vogel: But our members are foundations.
[00:07:13] Okay. And then we are, we re-grant dollars. So are
[00:07:15] nicole: you-
[00:07:16] Liz Vogel: Beyond,
[00:07:16] nicole: yeah ... like, are you like a matchmaker? Like, in a way- I love that ... like, are you, like, a yenta? Yeah. Like, like, I'm thinking if, if I- That's a
[00:07:25] Liz Vogel: life goal.
[00:07:26] nicole: Right? Is that a life goal? Yeah. I, I mean, who would... It seems like- Yeah ... a yummy kind of goal. But, like- Yeah
[00:07:31] and I don't think it needs to... I think there, there can be yentas that are conservative and liberal. I don't think that matters. I think love is love, and people like to, to, to c- connect with each other. I don't know, what's a
[00:07:41] Jolene: yenta? I don't,
[00:07:41] nicole: never heard that before. Oh, so, so yenta is, it's a Yiddish word. It, it's a matchmaker.
[00:07:47] It's a person- Okay ... that puts peop- Like, in the old days when you would, you know... It's from Fiddler on the Roof. Okay. And sh- and she is, the yenta is the matchmaker that brings people together.
[00:07:57] Liz Vogel: Okay. I think that was a good close [00:08:00] association for what it's for. I do, too. Yeah. I do,
[00:08:01] nicole: too. I do, too.
[00:08:02] Liz Vogel: I give you- Listen
[00:08:03] I could see that. But okay, I, I do think that matchmaker's a good way to think about it. Um- 'Cause did you guys- Yeah ...
[00:08:10] nicole: start in 2021? Do I have
[00:08:11] Liz Vogel: that number? Started in 2021.
[00:08:13] nicole: Who started it? Like- Yeah ... what was... Who decided, "We need this in our
[00:08:18] Liz Vogel: life"? Yep, yep. It started with four foundations. Okay. It was the Einhorn Collaborative Foundation, it was the Fetzer Institute, the Hewlett Foundation, and the Stand Together Trust.
[00:08:31] Okay. And they represent, um, ideological diversity across the four of them. They said, "We want to see what we can do together." Okay. They invited others to join. Since then, we've engaged more than 30 funding partners. Some have come in and then gone out, in part because they learn what this work is and how they could do it themselves.
[00:08:53] They don't all need to do it together, you know, and stay doing it all together. This isn't work that has [00:09:00] been well understood- Okay ... and doesn't really fit neatly into many of the categories of the way funders think about their work. And so we end up being a place where funders get to learn together, and some, like I said, take it back and now have created their own programs or are funding their own organizations directly, and then some have decided they really are staying in it together or coming in to learn with us.
[00:09:23] And they're pooling their dollars, and we're making grants together.
[00:09:26] nicole: And is it a nonpartisan or a cross-partisan collaboration? Like, is that an important part of New Pluralists? Because we did notice Jolene's basically in Walmart country. Mm-hmm. And we did notice that Walmart is one of the funders, and so we were like, "Ooh, is this got, like, all the sides so that everyone's trying to come together?"
[00:09:46] Liz Vogel: That's our intention, and Walmart was in from, I believe, very, if not the actual beginning, like, very close to the beginning. Some of the work can be... It's, like, pluralistic by design. Like, the intention and the design of the, [00:10:00] an organization's work is about finding people from very different- And making sure that they have opportunity to participate together.
[00:10:09] So one of our, um, grantees for a long time i- was Future Caucus, and they're still part of our network. So- Y- And I think-
[00:10:18] nicole: We, we, uh, interviewed Layla. That- Okay ... we were gonna ask about that. Yeah, yeah,
[00:10:21] Liz Vogel: yeah. Okay. So Future Caucus, great example. Yeah. OneAmerica Movement, an amazing organization that brings religious leaders from all faiths together, and they work together not only to understand each other and sort of do cross or interfaith work, but then to really go back into their own congregations and help bring down the heat when they are experiencing it.
[00:10:45] And that's, you know, really, I think, important when we talk about, like, trusted messengers. Like, I can't go into just any community and spread a message about, "Let's all, you know, find strength in our differences." Like, people who are leaders with trust in their communities [00:11:00] need support and help to be able to do that.
[00:11:02] Mm. And OneAmerica is a great example, um, of a national organization really connecting leaders across communities that are committed to that kind of work, um, together and within their own communities.
[00:11:16] Jolene: As a conservative, I, I tend to look at these, kind of an organization as, um, okay, it, it sounds all good and fine, but, I mean, what's the real...
[00:11:28] W- where's the practical... Like, put, put your, you know, boots on the ground. Yep. Where is this helping, um, specifically?
[00:11:37] Liz Vogel: Yes. So that's taking it from, like, this idea and ideal that might sound great, but to, like- Yeah ... what does it mean in practice and how- Yeah ... does it affect people's lives? Yep. Yeah, so I think the, um, in particular, the latest round of grants that we just made, um, attends to the question of, like, how people...
[00:11:56] Like, what... How can it improve people's lives? And it, uh, it comes out of [00:12:00] the recognition that, like, the American dream itself feels so out of reach for so many people right now. And so what are... How are groups, um, in communities tackling questions like can people actually afford to live in the places where they work?
[00:12:15] We have a project that's looking at the displacement over time in, like, resort mountain towns. Mm. Like, i- across Colorado, right? Mm-hmm. You have some places- Mm-hmm ... where... that have become just incredible hotspots for people to have these second homes or these major, um, you know, wealth holders are coming in, and the people who work in those restaurants and teach local, like, can't even live in the, in those places, right?
[00:12:39] That's not new, but are there organizations and efforts that can actually find the third thing, we sometimes call it? Like, what's the thing that everybody cares about? It's like, the, the place they live Feels like they can belong to it. Mm. Everyone wants that.
[00:12:56] nicole: Yeah.
[00:12:56] Liz Vogel: Yeah. And how do you- Yeah ... find, like, that common thing where [00:13:00] you can actually come together, maybe make policy recommendations, have a proc- have processes where people are actually having a say in what's happening in their communities and how it affects their lives?
[00:13:13] So we're seeing that happen, especially around things like, I know I really wanted to talk to you both about, um, like, AI disruption and, like, the data center explosion. Right.
[00:13:23] Jolene: Mm. Yeah.
[00:13:23] Liz Vogel: Whether you are for it or against it, by the way, there are people on all sides of that issue. Right. Right. Sure. What's, what's true is everyone wants a say.
[00:13:32] People do not want those decisions being imposed on them.
[00:13:35] nicole: Right.
[00:13:36] Liz Vogel: Right? Right. And so- Right ... what are the, like, civic processes? Like, there actually are these things that you all know about, like citizens assemblies or civic assemblies, that are the ways that people can have a meaningful engagement or meaningful voice in those types of issues that are really pressing for all of us.
[00:13:56] That needs to be supported and funded. That's the kind of work we're [00:14:00] supporting, and we're looking to make sure that the, the projects or the places that we're working in or supporting really can reach the very different people and view, viewpoints that exist in their, in the communities, right? And s- we know that some populations or communities have been, are, uh, don't have access as much to participate in civic processes, whether it's they're working two jobs, or how does information flow in a community, or does the meeting happen at a time where they can, they have childcare, right?
[00:14:31] Like, these are real barriers, but if we can support the efforts that sit that at the center and make it possible for people to be involved, people are hungry to do so because these are things that impact their actual day-to-day lives. And we're here hopefully to show how doing so pluralistically, like actually engaging across the different perspectives, will yield more durable and more productive solutions for more people.
[00:14:59] Like, [00:15:00] that's the point. This isn't some, like, pie-in-the-sky ideal. It is about finding solutions together that work for people's lives.
[00:15:07] Jolene: That, I think, is so interesting because as we take a look at the data centers, let's say, we're seeing so much... And we've interviewed several people on- Mm-hmm ... um, o- on just, like, the, the importance of local legislation and- Mm-hmm
[00:15:23] you know, being active in your city council or your county comm- you know, supporting a county commissioner or, you know, knowing who these people are because some of the most You know, important decisions are happening, you know, not even at the state and federal level, but in your own community. That's right.
[00:15:39] And so if you don't have a city council that i- is in tuned with the people in their community, or if the community members don't have access or don't even know how to have access to some- That's right ... of the local leaders, you know, that's such an important part of, of what's going on right now, right?
[00:15:57] Liz Vogel: Totally. Um, and that's the, [00:16:00] like, the challenges that are, um, very just, like, brass tacks and tactical, um, that you need to be addressed to be able to live out the, the reality of people coming together across difference. Like, you're talking about the very... Like, what do we do? H- do we even know who are the decision-makers and what, how we can engage as individuals in our communities?
[00:16:22] And, like, getting that alone, like as a, laid as a foundation, is really important work.
[00:16:27] nicole: I'm wondering if we should define what pluralism is- ... first. Okay. 'Cause then I've been thinking about, like, all these, as you're talking about these different communities, like, I wanna put a pin in these, these ideas. I grew up in San Francisco, and San Francisco is now super expensive, and I have a friend that, uh, was in the wine business with a restaurant, and she can't find employees 'cause it's too expensive to live there.
[00:16:55] I have two friends in New York City who are married to policemen, who can't [00:17:00] live in the places that they patrol. Um, I just heard a story, there's a community in Fort Worth, Texas, that is being infiltrated by Amazon drone, the drones. Wow. And the, and they, they got, I get extra money maybe or something, and now the neighborhood's freaking out because it's loud.
[00:17:19] It doesn't stop. They, it's- it's from morning till night on the weekends, and they're like, "What do we do as a community?" So those are the my, those are floating around. Yeah. But maybe we should, what's- what's- what's pluralism?
[00:17:32] Liz Vogel: Okay. Okay, okay. We define pluralism as both a worldview and a practice. As a worldview, it is the idea that we are all enriched by the diversity of our society.
[00:17:47] Like, we encounter difference in so many different dimensions living where we live in this country, and that that, we are all made better by it. That's the worldview. As a practice, pluralism [00:18:00] means, like, the way we navigate that diversity to, you know, to be together. And I've heard people say, this is pretty stark, but, like, pluralism is essentially, how does a diverse society live together and not just kill each other?
[00:18:18] Yeah. Like, it can get boiled down to that- Yeah ... if we really need to. Right. Um, I talk about it more as, like, how we wanna be together, and then how we work together to get stuff done, just a little gentler. Um, but that's really what we're talking about. Okay. And in a practical sense, it's the daily work of building trust and cooperation across real differences, like not pretending they don't exist, doing that to enable people to solve problems together.
[00:18:46] Mm-hmm. Right? And I mean, that's what you all do here, I think, across your friendship- Yes ... is, like, a model of that, is a microcosm of what we see communities doing and grappling with You know, [00:19:00] every day. So that's, that was, that's like- Yeah ... my baseline definition. Yeah.
[00:19:03] nicole: Yeah, because one of the things that we're very passionate about is that we are not trying to change each other's minds at all.
[00:19:09] We're trying to listen to each other, and I have learned so much, and honestly have changed because of my friendship with Jolene and this podcast with Jolene. Learning why she believes what she believes, how she believes what she believes, uh, has been an enormous gift, and I'm thinking about just the experiment of America.
[00:19:27] Liz Vogel: Yeah.
[00:19:28] nicole: Just- Yeah ... the experiment that, that we're all doing this together, and we're seeing a lot of pushback in countries that have always been homogenous And now they're, they're, you know, bringing other people in, and they are a mess. They can't work together, can't talk together, and so it's... This is an interesting idea, Liz.
[00:19:51] Jolene: I think one of the things that, that we see now, a- a- again, maybe this is a conservative, um, perspective, is that, [00:20:00] um, I, I think the pendulum has kind of swung in that we used to say, you know, everyone is welcome, and we need to make sure that everybody's diversity is seen and heard and, and recognized, um, to now that we're kind of saying, "Okay, wait, shouldn't you be coming to our country and trying to assimilate instead of trying to bring your, you know, your ideology from whatever country it is and coming into the United States and trying to make then change the United States?"
[00:20:31] I mean, are those the, the, that kind of dichotomy that you're, that you're saying, "Okay, wait, where's the, where's the common ground, or where's the, where's the, the field that we can both play in?"
[00:20:42] Liz Vogel: Yeah. I mean, I think all of those pieces have a role or have, like, an angle in or an entry point into this bigger conversation.
[00:20:52] I think your ability to be curious in the ways that you are and to [00:21:00] stay together in the way that you have and that you do, I think is predicated by a baseline sense that you are not threatened by each other's existence.
[00:21:11] nicole: Right.
[00:21:11] Liz Vogel: When that foundation is true, then things like political or ideological tension or differences isn't even something that needs to be avoided- Mm-hmm
[00:21:19] right, because it can be handled well, and it can, y- you know, be engaged with. I think in what you're describing, Jolene, um, is, like, we really are and have always actually navigated this question. Like, the American experiment is truly an experiment. It's a 250-year-old experiment at this point of can we be from the beginning a multiracial, multifaith, or at least multi, multi, multi- Mm-hmm
[00:21:49] um, society, right? I, you know, I track back to things like the first synagogue that established in Rhode Island wrote to then President [00:22:00] Washington and asked about religious persecution.
[00:22:03] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:22:03] Liz Vogel: And the answer that came in the form of a letter from George Washington was essentially the idea that he would give bigotry no sanction in this country.
[00:22:14] nicole: Hmm.
[00:22:14] Liz Vogel: And that that would not apply only to Jewish people, but to the idea, that principle, that this is a place where people can practice their faith freely. So those are things that, like, this is an experiment. And I think depending on different points in time how expansive our vision for who gets to belong as an American, there's always been exclusions.
[00:22:39] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:39] Liz Vogel: There's al- Mm-hmm, always ... right? I mean, if you look at- Yeah ... the history of immigration, different groups. I mean, and, and many of us with European ancestry, like, I certainly know so many stories of the adversity of ancestors who had to, you know, come here and struggle, right? There's, like, we have such pride- Yeah
[00:22:57] in those stories. Sure. Yeah. Um, but [00:23:00] then there's times where that sense of belonging does contract, and we don't necessarily apply that same sense of, like, awe that I might have for someone's family story to a whole other set of immigrants or people who are struggling now. Like- Mm-hmm ... I think that's an interesting dynamic that we have.
[00:23:18] But we have always in this country, like, expanded or contracted based on whether we feel threatened- Mm-hmm ... or whether we feel-
[00:23:26] Jolene: Mm-hmm ...
[00:23:26] Liz Vogel: more at ease. Mm-hmm. And I'm talking, you know, speaking- Yeah ... kind of at different levels. Sure, sure, sure. But that's how I think about what makes it even possible to really, like, embrace a pluralism.
[00:23:36] H- it really, I think, does have a role, like, there's a role for, like, how threatened people feel individually and at a group level and at a national level, um, that we don't always talk about.
[00:23:48] nicole: Yeah. I mean, I, I'm guess, like, dehumanization is a big part of this, right? I mean, I'm assuming it's always been there.
[00:23:56] We've dehumanized from the beginning of time. But now it's on such [00:24:00] a grand scale with social media and the algorithms that are fed, it's really easy to dehumanize And just be incredibly ugly to each other. Like, is, is, is that- Yeah ... have you struggled with that in this new pluralist space?
[00:24:20] Liz Vogel: Absolutely. I mean, I, that's part of something I've, you know, grappled with in my, my whole career.
[00:24:26] I think it's- Yeah ... a through line, and it's something that we absolutely name as one of the most, um, insidious and persistent, like, barriers to, like, achieving the type of, like, culture that I was talking about stri- Yeah ... yes, striving for. The interplay of dehumanization, and to your point, how, how pervasive it is, can that, you know, along with, like, distrust- Mm-hmm
[00:24:52] so it's not- Mm-hmm ... I mean, right, which feeds- Mm-hmm ... one another. Mm-hmm. Like, I to- I, we do not trust those people over there. Yeah. They are not, right, like us. [00:25:00] And then disconnection. It's like social media's such a paradox of seeming like we're more connected than ever, but then we're more isolated than ever.
[00:25:08] Yeah. Mm-hmm. And there's this loneliness epidemic- Mm-hmm ... and people are just cr- craving and craving at deep levels, I believe, a sense of belonging and purpose, and looking for who do I belong to? And, and really being willing to belong, you know, at the exclusion of others. Like, this is what happens. So that's what, that's, we're talking now back to meta level, and I re- we wanted to talk practically, but I really do believe it's, that, you know, we're attending to sort of all of that.
[00:25:37] Jolene: Because I think, yeah, we were seeing that with, with, again, past interviews, that we all wanna belong to a team- Mm-hmm ... and we wanna rally behind that team and- Mm-hmm ... but then when it gets to the point where we only want our team to win, and we think that, you know, you're a bad team and you, uh, and you are bad people, and that, I mean- And
[00:25:57] nicole: evil
[00:25:57] Jolene: and evil even. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's like- [00:26:00] Yep ... so you're right, Liz. We're, like, we're trying to, we're g- we, we want to belong, but not so much so that we want to kill the other side, you know? I mean, that's,
[00:26:11] nicole: that's where we are. I
[00:26:11] Liz Vogel: mean, it's tough to figure that out. Yeah.
[00:26:12] nicole: Is, is that the biggest threat that you are seeing in society today?
[00:26:18] Liz Vogel: There's a lot of emphasis on the practical practice side of the definition I gave you. Ev- Mm-hmm ... people ask me ta- all the time, Jolene, like, like, you know, "Is it even possible to work together? People aren't talking to each other. Uh, you know, they won't show up in the room if they're in the room," or, you know, like, that's real.
[00:26:34] Like, practice, can, you know, can it happen, and what, how does it change people's lives?
[00:26:38] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:39] Liz Vogel: I actually worry mo- more, or at least as much, maybe not more, at least as much about the worldview side, the belief side. Like, do we even want?
[00:26:51] nicole: Hmm. Hmm.
[00:26:51] Liz Vogel: Do we believe it's possible?
[00:26:53] nicole: Hmm.
[00:26:54] Liz Vogel: Have we lost faith-
[00:26:56] nicole: Mm-hmm ...
[00:26:56] Liz Vogel: in the possibility of a different way?[00:27:00]
[00:27:00] That's my, like, if we lose that- I don't know
[00:27:07] nicole: Right.
[00:27:08] Jolene: If we
[00:27:08] nicole: can fix anything else. Right, right, right. Well, that, that brings me to q- ask you then, your training as a death doula. Can we talk about, like, what brought you to that, this point- Mm-hmm ... and how that affects your lens in doing this work?
[00:27:24] Liz Vogel: Absolutely.
[00:27:25] Sure. So what brought me to this exploration for myself was, I mean, a number of losses. Mm-hmm. Um, and but I, I think probably most about my father who was—had lived a full life, died right before he turned 92. So it wa- Hmm ... I've had other sudden losses that are out of the order of things, and that's a different conversation, and we could talk about that.
[00:27:51] But with my father, we were not close growing, when I was growing up, and even int- you know, just was not close with my father. Pretty [00:28:00] estranged at certain points and but I really made an effort, um, in the last 10 years of his life that I wanted to see if I could know him differently. Hmm. I just, I just wanted to try, and he was game for that.
[00:28:15] I think there were a lot of conversations we didn't have. Um, we, you know, areas we just did not, we could not touch on, or I didn't feel like I could touch on with him. And then right, you know, at the very end of his life, and I've talked a little bit about this, I was very good. I'm like a very good doer.
[00:28:30] Like I can have all the task lists, and I just like went to town on the logistics. Having never done it before, it's overwhelming, but it was like, "Okay, I can do all of that." And what I could not do was sit in the room with him.
[00:28:41] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:28:42] Liz Vogel: I just could not be present, and I realized after the fact that I, I really wanna get better at that for the people I love in my life Hmm.
[00:28:55] Um, if I can support others in that process, [00:29:00] all the better. Um, but it's quite selfish in that I will only experience more loss as I, you know, if I am so lucky as to live longer. And, um, it just feels like kind of the most important thing. Um-
[00:29:15] Jolene: Yeah ...
[00:29:15] Liz Vogel: and- Yeah ... I need help. You know, like, I wanted to have some help and some guidance and, um, it's been such a huge gift.
[00:29:24] In terms of how it's affected my work, I think there are some really interesting parallels. The, the, one of the, the most important ideas that came through my training is the idea that the role of the doula as a non-medical professional who's there in support of the dying person, the, the thing that is, is, like, of highest order there is to try to capture the dying person's wishes, needs, like, how they want to be seen and heard on their own terms.
[00:29:55] Hmm. Like, it's not about you and what you think constitutes a good [00:30:00] death or what you think they should be caring about at that time. Hmm. Or if you can provide even a little bit of space for them to be known as they wish to be known on their own terms, that they, that, um, enables a peacefulness in their passing, in their transition.
[00:30:17] Hmm. And I feel like that's sacred, and I feel like that's actually what all of us want while we're alive, right? And it, it's that, like, can you, can I sit across from someone with whom I vehemently disagree and understand what matters to them on their own terms- Mm-hmm ... without trying to change their mind- Mm-hmm
[00:30:39] without passing judgment, with just, like, "I see you, I hear you, I get what matters to you"? Like, could we do that? That's my question.
[00:30:49] nicole: I mean- Wow ... we had, we had Larry Rosen on. Do you know who he is? Ooh. Of the Enemies- I do ... the Enemies Project? Um-
[00:30:56] Liz Vogel: Yep,
[00:30:56] nicole: so powerful. Hey, Larry. So powerful. What he's able [00:31:00] to do, and honestly, what the participants are able to do to, to- Yes
[00:31:05] through over, over a course of a day, and they edit it down to an hour, hour and a half. They put e- put themselves in each other's shoes and really, like, seem to absolutely understand what's, what the other person, why they feel what they feel. That's right. Those are the moments, Liz, that it makes me think when you were asking that question, can we do it, that I think we can And I don't think it's kumbaya, and I don't think it's liberal.
[00:31:33] I think it's like, because in the, the beginning and the middle and the end of the day, we do wanna be s- seen and heard and loved and respected and h- and humanized. Like, we do. And that's one thing that I've learned in this work with Jolene, is that that doesn't have a label of libla- liberal or conservative.
[00:31:54] Yeah. It's called I'm showing up and I see you And a story. [00:32:00]
[00:32:00] Liz Vogel: And it's so different than, I think, the skepticism that a lot of people rightfully have that they're gonna enter a conversation or a space and actually be, try to be changed. Like, "I'm gonna try- Hmm ... to change your mind," right? Yeah. "We're really here-" Yeah
[00:32:13] "'cause I'm gonna persuade you." People can sniff that out, and who's gonna... No one's gonna stick around for that, at least not, they'll may- maybe make the mistake once, right? But to be able, like what Larry Rosen, what Enemies Project, what other groups doing this work, tried and true. Mm-hmm. We have dozens if not more than dozens of examples of groups and organizations so steeped in the rigor of how to not fall into that trap- Mm.
[00:32:40] And not become the persuasion game, but actually about that deeper understanding and more durable relationship building, which is the foundation for being able to do anything together, much less solve intractable problems together. That's what we're talking about here.
[00:32:58] Jolene: Liz, do you have an [00:33:00] example of, of someone in their last moments before they transition, or even in the last couple of days, of, that, that, that, that reckoning has happened and, and- Hmm
[00:33:11] you've seen, like, the, the, um, the ability for s- maybe another family member or a friend or, or someone to, to really, like, grasp that such important, um, feeling for the, for the dying person?
[00:33:25] Liz Vogel: Well, I am still in training, so I wanna say that. I'm like a baby end of life doula. Mm. Still learning. Um, but I have encountered this alm- you know, in almost every kind of situation where, um, and I'm thinking of an example actually that another doula shared with me recently about where religious beliefs between the dying person- Hmm
[00:33:49] and their son, which w- had been a wedge there- Hmm. Mm-hmm ... you know, for decades, that it was in, like, the final days that the [00:34:00] son finally recognized that the job was not to impose-
[00:34:07] Jolene: Hmm ...
[00:34:08] Liz Vogel: their beliefs on their father.
[00:34:10] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:34:11] Liz Vogel: So I haven't witnessed that personally. Um, I have pra- in the, in the practice of it, and the role, you know, in that case, that's between the father and the son, but the doula is, like, sh- guiding it along.
[00:34:25] How can we keep coming back to the, your, the dying person? How can we keep... And doing that gently because the son is grieving. The son- Yeah, yeah ... is afraid of losing their father, right? Like, how do you attend to those dynamics, um, and I, and have great compassion and capacity and not take it on if, like, maybe the son in that situation doesn't ever, doesn't isn't able to let it go.
[00:34:49] Like, that's, you have to, as the doula, a lot like that might be possible, or what happens also. But yeah, I mean, I've, I, those are things that happen all the time. I, [00:35:00] I wish I could give you a better example from my own practice, but I'm still learning.
[00:35:03] Jolene: No, I, I love that because I think, I mean, just from a personal experience, when my father was dying, and we have three daughters.
[00:35:10] Mm. And they, you know, got to be with him and, and the day before he died, he was in the hospital, but he was still coherent and was able to verbalize, you know, and, and talk and everything. And it was so important for my girls. My dad was not a big churchgoer, but was a really good man. And so, you know, my girls would ask me all the time, you know, "Do, do you think that Poppy believes in Jesus, and do you think that, you know, he's gonna go to heaven and, and all that?"
[00:35:38] And I go, "I, I think God sees Poppy's heart, and I absolutely know that he is going to heaven." But it was so important for my girls to be able to talk about Jesus to him before he passed, and that... And so at that moment, it's almost like, you know, the girls thought that they were doing this for their poppy who was dying.
[00:35:58] Mm-hmm. And you wanted to make [00:36:00] sure that he knew that, you know- Yeah ... about Jesus. But really it was probably more for them, you know? Sure, yeah. That they felt good about what they were sharing with him, and that was their job to be able to share that with him.
[00:36:12] Liz Vogel: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:12] Jolene: So, I mean, it's kind of both, right? I mean...
[00:36:14] Liz Vogel: Yeah, I mean, I think what you're describing is sort of if I lift, well, if I lift up from, like, the role of the doula and the relationship I see between that and my work, you're talking, I think, about how we grieve.
[00:36:28] Jolene: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:36:29] Liz Vogel: And how we make meaning of loss. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I believe grieving, I mean, grieving is, like, the most universal experience.
[00:36:38] Yeah. Even as it's deeply personal in the way that your girls needed something that really could hold them in their process. I would need something different. You may have- Yeah ... needed something different. That's all fine, and I really hold out this great wonder about the transformative power of grieving [00:37:00] collectively.
[00:37:00] Like, if we can see each other in, in our grief. We all go through it. Mm. And we kinda keep it quiet a lot, or private, or-
[00:37:08] nicole: Mm. Yeah.
[00:37:09] Liz Vogel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... um, and I feel like there's so much more power, um, that could be possible for us if we, um, revived some rituals- Yes ... created new rituals- Mm ... right? All of that, it feels very fertile to me, um, as places that I see opportunity connected also to the kind of work that we're talking about.
[00:37:29] Like h- the h- let's connect as humans. Mm-hmm. 'Cause that's-
[00:37:32] Jolene: Mm-hmm. Right
[00:37:34] Liz Vogel: Mm-hmm ... the biggest coalition that we have. Yeah. 100%.
[00:37:37] nicole: My mom died in 2017, and it was a long, uh, a long process, and I had a complicated relationship with her. I didn't know how to grieve. We were all sort of, like, bumbling around, and different ways to deal with it.
[00:37:51] But a month into the, a- after my mom had passed, um, my husband, he invited, like, there were, like, [00:38:00] 12 or 15 friends of mine- Hm ... and I know this is gonna sound liberal, Jolene, but they held the space for me in a way that was s- We did a dinner party. Mm. And my mom was an incredible cook, and so we, w- and as is Josh, Josh.
[00:38:18] And we, we made all this food, and my mom made lemon bars, and so I made her lemon bars. And I was just really struck by I, I'm sitting around the table and all these friends, they weren't afraid to talk. They weren't afraid to cry or to be or to laugh, and I thought, "Gosh, we all have this in common, all of us."
[00:38:43] Mm-hmm. We're all gonna die. We're all g- we're all gonna know people that are gonna die, and we don't talk about it. We don't- Yeah ... think about it. We don't talk about it. We just like, "Please, no, no, no." Yeah. And it made me think about, like, I can't wait to talk to Liz. I also, in one of your [00:39:00] interviews, you talked about the dinner party that I wanted- Mm
[00:39:02] to get into. Mm-hmm. And, and also this grief to grievance pipeline.
[00:39:08] Liz Vogel: Mm. Sure.
[00:39:09] nicole: To talk about, like, how do, how does all of this work? How does all of this... Like, how do we deal with this current climate?
[00:39:18] Liz Vogel: Yeah. Yeah. The dinner party is a great example. Um, incredible leader named Lennon Flowers, um, who created this program called The Dinner Party out of her own need.
[00:39:30] She was a young person, I think in her 20s, when her mother died, and she found that just trying to be in social settings, like, and holding this identity that no one else could relate to just made her feel so, you know, I think out of place. I, I don't think I'm speaking out of turn by saying that. And so she, she looked, she went and said, "Okay, I don't find community, and what would it be like to bring [00:40:00] together other people my age with like similar life experiences but who also have lost a parent?
[00:40:05] We don't even have to talk about- Mm ... losing our parents if we don't want to." Right. "But we... It's not a barrier. Like, we all get it from the, from jump." And- That movement grew. It was within that practice of solving a problem really for, out of her own experience that she started to, like, identify and codify a, a set of, like, practices.
[00:40:27] Like, how do you connect to the heart of the thing in a group? Mm-hmm. How do you, um, bring people into and out of, like, vulnerability safely, right? Mm-hmm. Like, how do you, um, build trust quickly in a group? And can that be done ac- I mean, these were... These people might have had nothing else in common. Right.
[00:40:48] Might have been very, very different except for the fact that they lost a parent- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... in, in that, at that age. She has translated that into her work, um, in a [00:41:00] sort of an entity now called Trust Labs that brings those practices to communities working across all kinds of differences and all kinds of issues, and her starting point, we were just together, um, is sort of like, "What's your pain point?"
[00:41:15] You know, even just that framing of the invitation to, um, not try to be stoic or not try to be strong- Right, right ... um, I think is really, um, kind of revolutionary. Well, grief to grievance I can, I wanna talk about for a second. I was with a leader named John Sarrouf, runs an incredible organization, similar k- type of work, different maybe methodology, but the group is called Essential Partners.
[00:41:44] And John said something to, to a group of, I was with, um, earlier this week, that has so stuck with me. He said, "Underneath every complaint is a hope."
[00:41:56] nicole: Mm.
[00:41:57] Liz Vogel: If you can get through - Yes ... [00:42:00] the complaint, the shouting, the complaint. If you can tap into or ask into what is the hope underneath this complaint, like, it just changes everything, and that ties to me to the grief to grievance pipeline.
[00:42:14] So if we can accept that we are, like, we are all grieving at, something at some point, and our society has, is changing so fast, you know, whether... I mean, you can go farther back than the pandemic, but I think about the pandemic and that collective experience of, like, literal loss and death, but also just, like, a way of life.
[00:42:33] Like, ways of life- Yeah ... that are- Yeah ... not returning. And economies, like, people are losing their job. You know, their kids don't know, are they gonna have a better future? Like, all of these things that we are grieving, um, when, like, we can't really attend to that, or there's nowhere to go with it, no outlet for that pain, it can harden into grievance.
[00:42:58] Mm. And grievance [00:43:00] It calcifies and is kind of not, there's less to work with, right? It's just less, less malleable. And so I, I, that's what I, um, I see that. I think, you know, people f- feel like their future is not necessarily gonna be better, or this American dream is out of reach, right? Like, that is, that is hard.
[00:43:23] There's s- who's to blame? Who can I- Right ... where can I send my grievance, right? And I really have been just reflecting on John's provocation to me that underneath all of that is a hope, and I really wanna tap into that. I really wanna sharpen my ability to, to work on that.
[00:43:44] Jolene: That's
[00:43:44] nicole: beautiful. I mean, it's so beautiful.
[00:43:46] Yeah. And there's s- and, and hope is malleable, right? That's
[00:43:50] Liz Vogel: right.
[00:43:50] nicole: Right? Yep. So, so even thinking about the grief to grievance and the, and the image of the calcification, that person was in so [00:44:00] much pain. So what's under the pain? Yep. The pain was probably love.
[00:44:06] Liz Vogel: Yep.
[00:44:06] nicole: And love, like, love is more malleable and where the hope is.
[00:44:10] Liz Vogel: Yep.
[00:44:11] nicole: And yeah.
[00:44:12] Jolene: God, listen how deep you are. Dang.
[00:44:16] nicole: Okay. Dang, girl Okay. Girl. So is this... You were just in New York City. Were you at the UN?
[00:44:24] Liz Vogel: No, no, no, no, no, definitely not. But there's, like, every organization, I, like, social impact, anything-
[00:44:30] nicole: Okay ...
[00:44:31] Liz Vogel: ho- hosts meetings sort of- Okay ... connected to that somehow. Okay. I don't know how that happened, to be honest.
[00:44:35] Somebody smarter will know, but, um, that's- that's what happened. Yeah.
[00:44:37] nicole: And are you meeting with a lot of, for lack of a better word, rich people?
[00:44:43] Jolene: Let's
[00:44:44] nicole: call them foundations. Like fu- like, like fou- founders that want to cr- to work with your, with New Pluralists or, or... How does- Yeah. I'm still trying... I don't know about you, Jolene, I'm still trying to understand this.
[00:44:56] I'm still trying. I wanna unpa- unpack New Pluralists and [00:45:00] understand also, like, how our listeners and viewers can help.
[00:45:03] Liz Vogel: Yes. We are, like I said, a pretty unique entity in philanthropy. Okay. And we, um, we, you know, welcome and are getting a lot of interest from donors and funders who care about how division is pulling us apart, and care about dehumanization or what they're seeing, you know, in- in terms of violence and things like that, and wanna support efforts, but don't necessarily know how to do it.
[00:45:30] We can help. We can, we provide guidance to folks like that, but we also, you know... And when people donate or invest in New Pluralists, like, we have a proven track record. We've made more d- more than $40 million in grants to more than 100 and now maybe 20 organizations all over the country, at national level, local level.
[00:45:52] So we're, like, a good reference, and can be a reference for, like, someone who's interested in this work who- but doesn't know where to start, or doesn't [00:46:00] know where to go. Um, we take calls like that all the time. I am meeting, certainly yes, we're, we're seeing increased interest because sometimes funders, you know, who care about a particular issue on whatever side of the political spectrum, if it's even a political issue, like you can contribute on, uh, inadvertently to division, um, when you're, you know, working on something so one side wins.
[00:46:27] Like, that's pretty common. Yeah. So we have a lot of foundations who are saying, you know, "How do we... What else do we need to think about? What else, what else would it look like if we... Or what do we need to be doing maybe differently in our own grant-making practice, or how we make grants and, uh, support organizations?"
[00:46:45] So we're pretty, we're in a way a technical, like, support for the professional philanthropic world. But we're getting more and more interest from just donors, like individuals who really care about this in their community or are looking for, like, what [00:47:00] are the good programs? Like, who's, who's in my community working?
[00:47:02] Yeah. We don't know every community everywhere, but we're pretty tapped in and could probably help guide people, um, to, to organizations or efforts. I mean, not in every case, but we would certainly try and we wanna help. That's what we're doing. And I think what's interesting about the meetings that I was in in New York, besides like, yes, we did have our funder community come together and make sense of what's happening in the world in the past year, so much is changing- Mm-hmm
[00:47:27] every day. Mm-hmm. That no one can, like, under- like, make sense of that alone. So we, we were doing that together, but I was also part of gatherings, for example, with organizations that are working on, um... working with youth, for example, and sort of understanding, like, this crisis of loneliness- Mm-hmm ... and how it's relating to really anti-democratic views, like, globally.
[00:47:51] Right. Right. Um, and you know, like, if we care about democratic values and norms, we [00:48:00] have to look at that. Why are young people attracted- Mm-hmm ... to more autocratic forms of government across the globe? Like, what's happening there, right?
[00:48:08] nicole: Right. Right. Right.
[00:48:09] Liz Vogel: So I think I learned something from, from that meeting.
[00:48:12] There was a meeting that I attended that was really looking at the state of, like, women's and girls' rights around the world. What does that have to do? How does that correlate to democratic norms and the strength of d- democracy, not just in our country, but around the, the globe? How do we hold that, and what's the relationship between that work and pluralism, right?
[00:48:35] Like, it's not simple, but- Um, women comprise... There's a huge spectrum of political ideologies that women hold, right? Different kinds of identities, but, but as a one way of understanding half the population or more, what do we see about where women's rights are thriving? Where do we see where that may not be true?
[00:48:59] How do we [00:49:00] understand how that relates or doesn't to these other sort of democratic principles? Like, the... It's very- Wow ... some of it's very maybe academic and things, but it's... I find it really interesting to see how different groups approach maybe a slice of work, and like, I have, I take on the responsibility to kind of look across all of that and maybe try to sense for patterns or where there are common threads, like where different groups that wouldn't necessarily see each other working together could maybe work together.
[00:49:29] nicole: Do you have cli- would you call them clients? Funders? You would...
[00:49:34] Liz Vogel: Like- We have funders and we have field partners- Okay ... is what I would say. So- And we sit in the middle ...
[00:49:38] nicole: and you sit in the middle. So would you have someone, a funder come and say, "I want to give someone a bunch of money," just like that, "and I am very interested in making sure that, uh, kids have a good education, like, good schooling."
[00:49:58] Like, is that something that, [00:50:00] that would... I s- again, I guess I'm really struggling with trying to understand how This works
[00:50:07] Liz Vogel: How we fund. Okay.
[00:50:08] nicole: Yeah.
[00:50:08] Liz Vogel: Um, so that, in that way, and what your, your example, that funder doesn't really need us- Okay ... to make their grant. Okay. Probably. Okay. Maybe they need to know, well, what are...
[00:50:17] Maybe they wanna know what are the best programs that are, you know, in education and the things I care about. Um, there are ways for them to find out about those programs, and they would probably fund them directly. Um, but if they were to s- if someone were to come and say, "I don't know, like, I wa- I think we, you know, we care about social cohesion.
[00:50:40] We care about this division that we're seeing. We're really looking to support efforts where, um, communities, you know, in communities, but I don't know which communities, and I don't... How would I go about finding it?" We do that. Okay. So we would say, "Okay, you can be part of, you know, pool your resources, pool your [00:51:00] dollars here.
[00:51:00] We will, um... We're doing our sort of diligence to construct a portfolio of invest- of grant investments." Our latest theme, I think I was mentioning about, um, some of the work around, like, the American Dream, for example. We set, we set out and s- you know, about a year ago, to say, this is an area we wanna invest in.
[00:51:24] We're looking for, um, projects that are bringing people together actually across class divides to solve problems in their communities. That's what we're looking for. We had put out an open call, which means organizations could nominate themselves and their projects- Okay ... to get funded. We received 250 nominations for that grant.
[00:51:46] investment portfolio. Mm-hmm. We, our work on our team is to go through those nominations, decide on a, a group to invite to, for full proposals. We just, we had a set of criteria. We looked at which [00:52:00] ones really matched up, which ones felt like the strongest. We invited, I think, 45 proposals, and we had a bun- they submitted their proposals.
[00:52:09] We reviewed them. We had a set of funders who had pooled their dollars. They got to review certain proposals. We had a whole sort of system for who reviewed what, and, you know, made sure each proposal had a few different people looking at it from very different perspectives. They ranked them. They, you know, we had a whole set of criteria.
[00:52:27] Then we came together to discuss, like, here's what came through. Here are some of the themes that, that, of the proposals that were strongest. Here's... This is now, like, grant craft they call it. I'm not, I'm new to this, but I'm t- giving you the sort of sausage making here- ... and how we do it. Um, right, but really saying, like, what is this group doing?
[00:52:46] Like, do we do... How strong is their, um, collaboration across difference, right? Yeah. Or how ti- like, is this really about outcomes, or are they just getting together? It sounds lovely, but, like, what's really gonna change? Like, we were pretty [00:53:00] rigorous. Um, and we ended up, um, putting forward a recommendation to our funders, 'cause we're the, we're kind of the stewards of their collective- Right
[00:53:08] money.
[00:53:09] nicole: Right.
[00:53:09] Liz Vogel: Saying these are the seven projects of the 45 we got, and the way that you all looked at the review, here are the seven projects that we think are the strongest in really trying to bring people together across class divides in very different ways to solve problems, tangible problems in their communities.
[00:53:30] And the funders vote, and then we make the grants, and then we start being in relationship with the grantees. And we learned in that process that all of those projects, that we didn't know this upfront, all of them are working on AI disruption- Hmm ... housing, economic opportunity. Like, very different places, very different demographics, very different communities.
[00:53:54] These are the issues that are coming forward, and we feel very strong about [00:54:00] that they, in their methods- Might hopefully bring forward, like, actual solutions and be able to make change together. We'll see. We're just getting started. But that's, like, how it works, and I don't know if that makes it any clearer.
[00:54:14] Uh, and you
[00:54:15] Jolene: know what? I, I would liken it to, uh, I almost feel like you're a, a venture capitalist for- Mm ... ideas, you know, civic ideas, you know? I mean, it's like- Mm-hmm ... you've, you've got all these funders who are saying- Yeah ... "Okay, we wanna make a difference," and so then you're going out and interviewing- Mm-hmm
[00:54:32] and kind of like, "Okay, here's the pool. Let's narrow it down. Here's the presentations."
[00:54:37] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:37] Jolene: Mm-hmm. And, and who's, who gets the grants, right?
[00:54:40] nicole: No, that's
[00:54:40] Liz Vogel: sup- That's a great, yeah, analogy, yeah. It's
[00:54:42] nicole: super helpful. Yeah. Thank you for that. Great. Yeah.
[00:54:45] Liz Vogel: Yeah. That's great, and actually you're helping me, 'cause I realize I don't have to describe this very often to people who are not doing it.
[00:54:50] So I'm like, "Oh, this is important," and I think venture capital's probably... I don't know enough about that to know, but one of the things that's so interesting is that we have different funders [00:55:00] ha- who have very different sort of appetites for risk or risk tolerance.
[00:55:03] Jolene: Sure.
[00:55:04] Liz Vogel: Sure. Which is the just another dimension of difference that's so fun to sort of try to work across, because- Oh, my gosh
[00:55:10] yeah, I would see... Yeah, it's really, um, interesting, but I l- I think that's a helpful analogy. Thank you.
[00:55:15] nicole: Before we go into the, the games that we like to play and all of that- Yes ... is there something that you want to make clear to our audience about New Pluralists, or we also love to give assignments to our listeners and viewers, 'cause I think that that's really important for, for our cause to, like, make sure that everybody feels that they have advocacy.
[00:55:37] Liz Vogel: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:38] nicole: That, that they're not just, like, stuck in their corners fighting each other.
[00:55:42] Liz Vogel: Yeah.
[00:55:42] nicole: So anything that you wanna let us know about.
[00:55:46] Liz Vogel: Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I think we've talked about this quite a bit, but the idea that pluralism is not about agreeing, forcing agreement, or consensus, or, like, meeting in, like, the mushy middle, right?
[00:55:58] It's about [00:56:00] how can people keep their convictions and their fullness as a, you know, as people and still work side by side on things that they care about to build a shared future. Like, what is our shared future? So that's what I really want people to know. Um- Yeah ... I think the assignment, I mean, it's the assignment that I'm really trying to take seriously, which is the next time I encounter, like, complaint-
[00:56:27] nicole: Oh, yeah
[00:56:27] to,
[00:56:28] Liz Vogel: am I in a position to actually, like, ask into the hope that's underneath it? I mean, maybe that's not, if you're not in a relationship with the person complaining, but- Yeah ... as you encounter a complaint, like, can... Is there a way to, yeah, be curious about the hope that sits underneath it? That's just a practice I'm looking to cultivate for myself, and I would give that assignment to literally anybody that's listening
[00:56:51] Jolene: or watching.
[00:56:51] nicole: Yeah. I love that. I, I l- I love that. Yeah. I love that. I mean, this is a side note, but thinking about- When my mom died, and, [00:57:00] you know, grief is so, such a beast and it, it comes out of nowhere, and then it stops, and like you have no real control of it. Mm-hmm. But I do remember in the first couple weeks, I would sometimes, like, just burst into tears, sometimes in front of a stranger.
[00:57:14] And every time they h- hugged me and I said, "I'm so sorry, my mom died," and they're like, "My dad died. Like, we're in the dead parent club." Oh. Like every time. Oh. There was this sense of like... And I'm just thinking about hope and complaint, that you just don't- Yeah ... ever know what someone is going through.
[00:57:33] Liz Vogel: Yeah.
[00:57:34] nicole: And that we can all have bad days, and we can all think someone's a jerk, but why? Like-
[00:57:40] Liz Vogel: Yep ...
[00:57:40] nicole: if, if we have the moment to, like, take a breath and go, "Okay."
[00:57:44] Jolene: Yep. Yeah. "
[00:57:44] nicole: What's underneath that?"
[00:57:46] Jolene: That is good stuff. Liz, we've loved- I'm glad ... having you on here. Yeah. This is, this is a great- Thank you ... conversation. This was amazing.
[00:57:51] Thank you. This was really good.
[00:57:56] nicole: Do a good for the soul?
[00:57:59] Liz Vogel: They certainly [00:58:00] can. Okay. Yay. I brought, um- Show and
[00:58:02] Jolene: tell.
[00:58:03] Liz Vogel: Show and tell. Let's see if, I don't know if you can read this, probably not. It's called The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse. Oh, my gosh. And it's by Charles Macke.
[00:58:14] nicole: Okay. Okay.
[00:58:15] Liz Vogel: And it's just this beautiful book that it started as a series of Instagram posts by the author, and it really speaks to, like, his own experiences of grief and loneliness, and I think it maybe struggles with mental health.
[00:58:29] But it is so beautiful in its simplicity and in, like, the core messages. Um, and there are two quotes that I love, love, love. Um-
[00:58:39] nicole: I love this ... "
[00:58:40] Liz Vogel: What is the bravest thing you've ever said?" asked the boy. "Help," said the horse.
[00:58:47] Jolene: Oh, wow.
[00:58:53] Liz Vogel: So I love that
[00:58:54] nicole: It's cool. Mm-hmm.
[00:58:55] Liz Vogel: And then there's another one, um, that says, "Most, [00:59:00] most of the old moles I know wish they had listened less to their fears and more to their dreams."
[00:59:07] nicole: Hmm. Oh.
[00:59:09] Liz Vogel: So every page is just like a little illustration. Oh. I know you can't read it.
[00:59:13] nicole: Oh, that's so good. We'll put it in the show notes for sure- Amazing
[00:59:16] so
[00:59:16] Liz Vogel: that we can
[00:59:16] nicole: share this with-
[00:59:18] Liz Vogel: Amazing.
[00:59:18] nicole: That's amazing.
[00:59:19] Liz Vogel: Yeah. Oh. That book got me, got me through the pandemic. It got, it's gotten me through many things, and it's just like- Yes ... you can just open to a pa- you don't have to read the whole book. You like open to a page- I love that ... or a few pages and, um, it's really, yeah, it's like w- it's good for the soul, for sure.
[00:59:33] Jolene: Oh, so good. Oh my gosh. That's great. That's so good.
[00:59:41] Well, do you have a would you rather for us?
[00:59:44] Liz Vogel: I do, and it has, like, nothing to do with anything we've talked about. Good,
[00:59:48] Jolene: because ours doesn't either. 'Cause ours
[00:59:49] nicole: doesn't either.
[00:59:50] Jolene: Yes.
[00:59:50] nicole: Okay. All right. Okay. Let's make it light. Excellent. Okay.
[00:59:52] Liz Vogel: Yeah, exactly. I know. It's like, I'm sorry, this has been so heavy. Hope it's okay.
[00:59:57] Um- Listen,
[00:59:57] nicole: it's what, it's what we do here.
[00:59:59] Liz Vogel: Okay, okay. All right, [01:00:00] here it is. Okay. Would you rather be the person who always forces the group to leave for the airport at 4:00 AM- Oh, gosh ... for a 9:00 AM flight- ... or be the person who gets your name called over the terminal intercom while you're sprinting past Auntie Anne's Pretzels- Ah.
[01:00:19] while your group waits at the gate wondering if they should leave without you?
[01:00:25] Jolene: Oh, my gosh.
[01:00:29] Um-
[01:00:33] nicole: That's a really, that's just really good. It's just
[01:00:35] Jolene: good No, that is really good, Liz. Um, Nicole, do you wanna go first?
[01:00:41] nicole: I think I do. Listen- Uh, I love to travel. I travel all the time. I now live in two places. I love it, but I'm an anxious traveler, and so I could easily- I mean, that seems really intense, five hours ahead, but I could [01:01:00] easily see myself, Miss Anxious Annie, not, not Annie Pretzels or whatever- Yeah
[01:01:06] doing that. Um, I just love the image of the second one. I think it's hilarious.
[01:01:13] Jolene: Yeah. I, okay, so that's where I'm at. I would rather be- Yeah ... the one that, that they're waiting for at the gate and going, "We're g- no, we are, we are literally leaving without you." "Like, you are too late."
[01:01:23] nicole: Yes. Yeah.
[01:01:25] Jolene: And I'm running- Yeah.
[01:01:25] Yeah ... telling, "Are you Jolene?" Yeah. "Yep, that's, I'm the one they're waiting on." Yeah. Yeah.
[01:01:28] nicole: And I could totally see that you're like, "I gotta get my, my s- my sweet treat or whatever."
[01:01:33] Jolene: Yeah.
[01:01:33] nicole: Right?
[01:01:34] Jolene: Yeah.
[01:01:34] Liz Vogel: Can you travel together? Have you traveled together then? How does that go?
[01:01:37] nicole: Me and Jo?
[01:01:38] Liz Vogel: Yeah.
[01:01:39] nicole: No.
[01:01:40] Jolene: I don't think
[01:01:40] nicole: we ever have.
[01:01:41] No, we've seen, like she'll come to New York. I've gone to Missouri. Like- Interesting ... but we've never traveled together. Huh. Listen, Liz, she doesn't like that I take my shoes off in the airport. Oh, my gosh. And I, I'm clean, and I wear socks, but she doesn't like that, so I have literally changed my behavior.[01:02:00]
[01:02:00] And I try not to do it, 'cause I think of Jolene. The other thing that she has changed me is that, not in New York 'cause New York is bananas, but when I'm in Utah and I go to the grocery store, there have been times I have left the cart. Mm. I don't do that anymore- Mm ... because she shamed me.
[01:02:19] Liz Vogel: Yeah.
[01:02:20] Jolene: So
[01:02:20] nicole: proud of you.
[01:02:21] And now I, I know, girl. I d- listen.
[01:02:23] Jolene: So proud of you. Okay. That's what
[01:02:25] nicole: friendship is for.
[01:02:26] Jolene: Liz, it's so funny that you had an airport one, 'cause that's exactly what ours is as well.
[01:02:30] nicole: Yes. I
[01:02:30] Liz Vogel: can't wait. Yeah.
[01:02:31] Jolene: Okay. Okay. Liz.
[01:02:32] nicole: Oh, that's true.
[01:02:34] Jolene: Would you rather sit on an airplane with a man that is snoring the entire trip or someone's listening to their phone without headphones?
[01:02:45] Liz Vogel: Okay. This is traumatizing. Um...
[01:02:49] Jolene: I know
[01:02:51] Liz Vogel: I have to say listening to their phone without headphones and I'm so sorry to say it. I can't believe I just said [01:03:00] that. Yes, because, okay, so I love my partner Kevin very, very much. I hope he never listens to this podcast.
[01:03:08] Jolene: Uh-oh. He's the snorer.
[01:03:11] Liz Vogel: He is a snorer, and I, when I tell you that he has, bless him, he has tried everything.
[01:03:16] Like, he's done e- anything I've made him do. Like, I mean, the thing, the note, the all the... He's done it all. I have professional grade earplugs. Like, I got them customized to my ear holes. Oh, they're so good. Yes. Wow. And I can he- I'm pretty dead to the, like, I'm pretty out. Like, I can't hear anything except guess what I can hear?
[01:03:34] Jolene: His
[01:03:35] Liz Vogel: snoring. So I-
[01:03:38] Jolene: Like, your brain has ac- has just attuned to that, like- Oh my gosh ... that sound Amazing. Amazing.
[01:03:44] Liz Vogel: And I, so I would be afraid that I would not be kind at all. I would leave it. Oh my God, this is so good. I couldn't do it. Yeah, I could not do it. Um-
[01:03:57] Jolene: So
[01:03:57] Liz Vogel: I hope that- That is, I don't know how you chose that question for [01:04:00] me, but that was- Isn't that
[01:04:01] Jolene: wild?
[01:04:01] Yeah. No, no, that's good. Wow. That's good. So I hope you are never in the middle seat of a kid- No ... playing video games over here, and Kevin on this side. And a snorer. Yeah. You just go
[01:04:09] nicole: bam, bam, bam.
[01:04:10] Jolene: Yeah.
[01:04:10] Liz Vogel: Exactly. Exactly. I get carted off the plane. So much for pluralism. Yeah. Exactly.
[01:04:14] Jolene: Yeah. There goes your pluralism.
[01:04:16] Get banned. You're, you're on, you go viral, you know?
[01:04:20] nicole: Ah, exactly.
[01:04:21] Liz Vogel: That's right.
[01:04:21] Jolene: Liz Vogel, who, the director of New Pluralists- Of New
[01:04:24] nicole: Pluralists ...
[01:04:25] Jolene: gets kicked off the plane for-
[01:04:29] nicole: And then there would be funding for days. It would be amazing.
[01:04:32] Liz Vogel: There would. It's the outrage machine. It's true. I know. That would generate so much interest.
[01:04:35] I know.
[01:04:36] Jolene: Right?
[01:04:36] nicole: I know. It's crazy.
[01:04:38] Jolene: Any
[01:04:38] Liz Vogel: publicity- Okay,
[01:04:38] Jolene: I
[01:04:38] Liz Vogel: can't wish for that. I cannot. No, no. Oh my God. I can't wish for that. I travel way too much. Yeah. It's awful.
[01:04:45] nicole: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Liz, this was wonderful.
[01:04:48] Jolene: Thank you,
[01:04:48] nicole: Liz.
[01:04:49] Jolene: Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And thanks for your work and, and all that you do 'cause this is, this has been so, um, interesting, for sure.
[01:04:57] nicole: This has been great. Can you please- I really loved it ... tell our [01:05:00] audience where to find you, where to find New Pluralists? We'll obviously put everything in the show notes, but we'd love it to come from you.
[01:05:06] Liz Vogel: Yes. Yes. We are, um, newpluralists.org. Um, and we also are on LinkedIn, and I'm also on LinkedIn, I think at Liz Vogel.
[01:05:17] Uh- Mm-hmm ... and that's pretty much it.
[01:05:19] nicole: Okay. Great. All right. Awesome. Um, thank you everybody. Thumbs up, like, subscribe, and share with a friend, and share with someone that maybe you don't agree with- Oh ... 'cause it's fun. We have some fun here. We
[01:05:35] Liz Vogel: have some fun. Love it.
[01:05:36] nicole: All right. Thanks everybody. All right. Bye everybody.
[01:05:39] Liz Vogel: Bye. Bye-bye. Thank you.
[01:05:41] nicole: We've Got to Talk is produced across the world by the wildly talented, creative, and hilarious team at Bamby Media. Our theme song is Jump Jive Swing by Space Train Unlimited. Thank you so much for listening, and join us every week for another episode of We've Got to Talk.
