Monica Guzman: Why Talking Politics With Family Isn't Just Okay - It's Essential
We're told not to talk about politics, religion, or money with friends and family. But what if that advice is exactly what's destroying our ability to function as a country? That's why we invited Monica Guzman - author of "I Never Thought of It That Way," and advisor at Braver Angels to be our very first guest. If anyone knows how to have fearlessly curious conversations in dangerously divided times, it's Monica. And she didn't hold back.
Monica thinks America is fraying. Not just divided - anxious. We're collectively worried about whether this whole experiment can survive the constant barrage of outrage, misinformation, and loneliness. As an immigrant, Monica says she sometimes has more optimism than those who were born here. She sees what's worth preserving, and she believes the only way forward is to keep talking to each other, especially across disagreement. Too many people are looking for the exits, she says, when what we actually need is to stay in the room.
We asked Monica about social media, and her answer was brutal: it's made it easy to be incurious while feeling righteous. Outrage and fear get rewarded with likes and shares. The people profiting off our division are what Monica calls "conflict entrepreneurs". They’re thriving while the rest of us are miserable. But that doesn't mean every conversation is doomed or that social media is inherently evil. It just means that having real, meaningful conversations about contentious topics takes more resilience and skill than ever before.
Monica's advice? Step away from the keyboard. Pick up the phone. Meet for coffee. Have those tough debates face-to-face, where empathy and nuance actually have a fighting chance. Because when you're looking someone in the eye, it's a lot harder to reduce them to a caricature or dismiss their humanity.
With the holidays approaching, we had to ask Monica for advice on navigating family gatherings where political divides run deep. Her first tip: know what you're after. Are you seeking connection, or are you secretly hoping to change someone's mind? Because if it's the latter, you need to understand that persuasion only works if you first genuinely understand the other person. No one's mind changes when they feel judged.
And if your goal is to repair a relationship that's been damaged by political disagreement, be prepared for it to be hard. The other person might not meet you halfway. They might not even acknowledge your effort. But curiosity and grace are contagious, Monica says. Even if you're the only one modeling them, you're planting seeds that might grow later.
One of Monica's most practical pieces of advice is something Jolene and I have discovered ourselves: swap "why" questions for "how" questions. Instead of "Why do you believe that?" try "How did you come to believe that?" The difference seems subtle but it's profound. "Why" puts people on the defensive, making them reach for canned talking points or rehearsed arguments. "How" invites them to share their story, their journey, their actual human experience.
When we share stories, Monica reminds us, there's nothing to contest. You can't argue with someone's lived experience. You can only listen and try to understand. And when you do that, misconceptions start to melt away and you start seeing the person instead of the political position.
Monica shared a story from her own reporting that perfectly illustrates this. After the 2016 election, she organized a trip for a group of liberal Seattleites to visit Sherman County, Oregon - a deeply conservative, agricultural community. The goal wasn't to educate or persuade, but simply to understand. What they found was eye-opening.
The issues that mattered most to the farmers - water rights, land use, agricultural policy- were completely different from what the city dwellers assumed conservatives cared about. And the farmers, for their part, were surprised to meet liberals who weren't out to destroy their way of life but were just, well, people trying to understand a different perspective.
The lesson? We're all terrible at estimating what the "other side" really thinks. Studies show that both liberals and conservatives wildly overestimate how much the other side supports extreme positions like political violence. The real numbers are tiny (we’re talking single digits) but our projections are huge. We imagine the worst about each other and then react to those imagined extremes instead of engaging with real people and their actual beliefs.
The best intervention, Monica says, is simply correcting these misperceptions by talking to real people. Not the loudest voices on Twitter or the most extreme examples on cable news, but actual humans in your community who happen to disagree with you politically.
Some people argue that maybe it's time for America to split up, to become the "Divided States" where liberals and conservatives just go their separate ways. Monica pushes back hard on this idea. The notion that we're hopelessly divided is a lie, she says - one pushed by the extremes for political gain. In reality, most of us want something in the middle.
The more time we spend only with people who agree with us, the dumber we get. Our blind spots grow, our worldviews narrow, and we lose the ability to make wise decisions for a healthy society. We need each other, Monica insists. We're part of the same beating heart, whether we like it or not.
This hit home for both Jolene and me. Our friendship works because we challenge each other's assumptions, fill in each other's blind spots, and force each other to think beyond our comfortable echo chambers. We're better thinkers, better citizens, and honestly better people because we engage with perspectives different from our own.
So is there hope? Monica thinks so, and after talking to her, we do too. She sees it in the growing number of people on both sides who are tired of the yelling and ready for something different. She sees it in podcasts like ours, in community bridge-building projects, and in the small but mighty coalition of politicians willing to work across the aisle.
The revolution, Monica says, isn't happening in the halls of power. It's happening in living rooms, coffee shops, and yes, podcasts. The people who dare to cross the divide, to have the hard conversations, to choose dialogue over dismissal - they are the counterculture. They are the resistance to a political system that profits from keeping us angry and divided.
This resonates deeply with what Jolene and I are trying to do. We're not politicians or professional mediators. We're just two friends who refuse to let political differences destroy our relationship, and we're inviting others to join us in that refusal. It's not always comfortable, it's not always easy, but it's necessary.
Monica left us with a beautiful concept: "sonder" - the realization that every person you meet has a life as vivid and complex as your own. When we remember that, when we look at each other as potential friends rather than enemies, everything changes. That person who voted differently than you? They have hopes, fears, struggles, and stories just as real and important as yours.
So as you head into your next family dinner, your next online debate, or your next awkward conversation with someone who sees the world completely differently, try a little curiosity. Ask "how" instead of "why." Listen for the story, not the soundbite. Assume good faith instead of malicious intent. And remember that the way we treat each other, the way we engage across our differences, is what will determine whether we can actually function as a country.
Monica's book, "I Never Thought of It That Way," is a must-read for anyone who wants to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. And if you're reading this, if you've made it this far, you're already on the right path. You're choosing curiosity over certainty, dialogue over dismissal, connection over contempt.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Good For The Soul:
https://valariekaur.com/books/see-no-stranger/
Connect with Monica
https://www.moniguzman.com/book
https://braverangels.org/author/moniguzmangmail-com/
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[00:00:00] nicole: She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money. And we say, that's exactly what friends should talk about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud. Welcome to, we've got to talk.
[00:00:20] Jolene: Hello. We are so excited to have Monica Guzman with us. we have talked about her in a previous episode, because she is, is the professional of what we have are trying to do here. So, we're just so delighted to have you. This is our first interview too. We're like big girls doing a big girl things.
[00:00:42] Yes, I know.
[00:00:43] nicole: Big girl thing. And you. And it seems like you are the perfect first
[00:00:48] Jolene: Totally. Yep.
[00:00:49] nicole: So let me introduce, let me introduce you. this is your book, it's called, I never Thought of it that way. Uh, how to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations and [00:01:00] Dangerously Divided Times. you are also an advisor at Braver Angels. You're the host of the podcast, A Braver Way, and the founder and CEO reclaim curiosity. Welcome Monica to We've got to Talk. Yay. It's so great. It's so great. Oh my gosh. Um, we're just gonna jump right in and then see where this conversation takes us. Uh, so our first question is. do you think is happening to our country right now and how do we move forward together?
[00:01:36] Monica: I think we are fraying. I think we
[00:01:38] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:01:39] Monica: fraying. I think we've been divided always from the beginning. We've been divided for a purpose and with intention. The founders of this country said we want people to be able to discuss and disagree and for their conflicts to [00:02:00] animate. Our Democratic republic, so from the beginning we had states rights versus the federal government.
[00:02:07] Still today, we have that same tension, so this is a country that has worked very hard for a quarter millennium to uphold a system that allows us to contain. Healthy tensions and seems to understand that there's a lot of really important issues that you can't resolve for all time. You can only find the best balance for now. I think right now on the eve of the 250th anniversary, there's a lot of anxiety about whether this experiment can still withstand the slings and arrows of. Everything. Uh, the media environment, social media, technology, misinformation, disinformation, misperceptions, exaggerations, anger, emotional reactivity, the impacts of loneliness and disconnection on a human level across our society. The depth and [00:03:00] breadth of disagreements that exist, the high stakes that people feel on and on and on, and on and on. Everyone's
[00:03:07] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:03:07] Monica: their own monster that they're afraid is gonna bring it all down. So that's what I see.
[00:03:13] I feel like as an immigrant, I have sometimes access to a little more optimism, I think, some native born Americans because
[00:03:25] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:03:26] Monica: could be a lot worse and. I see in our country so much worth preserving and such an impetus for working really hard to preserve it yell maybe less loud about everything that's wrong try to lean in and, and work on those guardrails and work on the things that keep us robust. And the foundational one is talking to each other across disagreement. That's the foundation, and people are looking for the exits from that project, but that's the foundation.
[00:03:58] Jolene: Do you think then that [00:04:00] social media has, has totally inhibited this need for curiosity?
[00:04:04] Monica: I think it has made it
[00:04:06] Jolene: I,
[00:04:06] Monica: to be incurious while feeling righteous.
[00:04:10] Jolene: hmm.
[00:04:10] Monica: I think that's what, that's what's happened. It's a playground for reactivity and for messaging and performance of perspectives. That's what it's become. The people who have, least when it comes to political issues, been most rewarded and elevated for. Their behavior on social media tend to be the ones who are the best at
[00:04:34] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:04:35] Monica: outrage and fear, are two channels to inaccuracies around what people actually think in service of some other ends. my friend Amanda Ripley, who wrote a book called High Conflict, a label for people who seem to. Profit off our division. They are the conflict entrepreneurs. Conflict entrepreneurs do real well on social
[00:04:58] nicole: Yes, they do.
[00:04:59] Monica: [00:05:00] It doesn't mean that there are bad people on social media. It doesn't mean that every conversation on social media is bad.
[00:05:05] nicole: It.
[00:05:05] Monica: does mean that it takes more resilience and more skill. To have contentious conversations on social media and that it is almost always better not to, to be the person who can pick up the phone, who can meet that person for coffee, who can have those contentious, know, debates with more tools in their toolbox than what social media
[00:05:27] Jolene: So then when, when we talk about family, we're getting ready to, to go into the holiday season you know, you, you talk about so much about your story and, and your family being divided. what's the first step that we can take in, in a family setting when you've got polar opposites sitting around the same table?
[00:05:46] What, what's your advice? What are we gonna do?
[00:05:47] Monica: Yeah. First thing is know what you're after. I think a lot of projects for Bridge building fall
[00:05:55] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:05:55] Monica: at that very first step. Where people think that they're after [00:06:00] connection, they're
[00:06:01] Jolene: Ah, yeah.
[00:06:02] Monica: or some form of coercion and they don't know it. Maybe it hasn't been lit up for them, or maybe they just think that it's the right thing to do to try to change their relatives. So that's deep and difficult and personal. That's the first step, is know what you're after. If you are not after. Conversations with someone in order to understand them. Question if
[00:06:29] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:06:30] Monica: to have them, because
[00:06:32] nicole: If you aren't after persuasion.
[00:06:34] Monica: that's not bad. If you want to change someone's mind, that's not bad, but that road. Passes through understanding you cannot change a mind. You don't understand because that mind refuses to be changed because that mind is not feeling accepted. That mind is feeling
[00:06:48] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:06:48] Monica: and condescended to, and we can tell we're not dumb. We're really, really smart species for conversational dynamics.
[00:06:56] We know when somebody is BSing us. We know when someone's [00:07:00] cajoling us. You know, all these, all these things that we do. if you wanna persuade, great. understand first, do you understand? What are you missing? Now's a great time to ask if what you wanna do is repair a rupture. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. That's tough. And among the things that are hard about that is that it's not always up to you and you can't control what the other person
[00:07:26] is gonna do. All you can control is how you behave. But you might be curious and they might not be curious back. You might be giving them a lot of time and grace and they might not be giving you time and grace back. What I say to that though is that. In the modeling and showing and demonstrating of curiosity and grace, those things tend to be contagious. Curiosity in particular, I've seen so much research
[00:07:49] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:07:50] Monica: me very excited about
[00:07:51] nicole: that.
[00:07:52] Monica: that it only takes one. You can't guarantee that the other person is gonna start using more flexible language. I don't know. What do you [00:08:00] think? When I think of this, this is what comes up. You know, these kinds of things. They do spread in the context of a conversation. More people will begin to speak
[00:08:09] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:08:09] Monica: one person does. Um, so it, there's at least a chance, at least a chance. Um, the other issue with repair, of course, is we tend to think when something has, has broken, uh, or ruptured, or is tough or there's baggage with another family member, that it's all their fault.
[00:08:28] nicole: Yes.
[00:08:28] Monica: That, you know,
[00:08:29] Jolene: Yep.
[00:08:29] Monica: there's two in a dynamic. And so it takes humility to recognize that it's not them, it's you plus them in
[00:08:36] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:08:36] Monica: of way. What way? You don't have to judge them or yourself necessarily, but you can take a close look at that dynamic. And sometimes if you want to reopen conversations that you haven't been able to have or open them at all, you have to come a little bit with your headed, you know, you, you have to come and say, Hey. I'd love to talk to you about this. I just wanna tell you, I know that I tend to interrupt
[00:08:56] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:08:56] Monica: That's been pointed out to me, and I, I [00:09:00] apologize for that. I actually, I'm working on that, so just so you know, I'm, you know, call that out for me because I really do wanna try to listen. So whatever it is that's been off in the past, know, show up with it, name it, goes from
[00:09:12] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:09:13] nicole: you would talk about how, not using the word why, but using the word how is such a game changer. Can you. more about that. I think that's really helpful to people to, to whether you're sitting around. We do it. I mean, we do it every day. You know, she and she and I together on this podcast,
[00:09:31] Monica: Good.
[00:09:31] nicole: you know, I am the one answering the Facebook and the YouTube and all the things, and even me with all the tools I have, I have to like take a deep breath and Okay, how come that like, you know, and I think about what you say about the why versus the how.
[00:09:47] So I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit.
[00:09:49] Monica: Yeah, we tend to want to ask why do you believe what you believe? Why do you think that It's the first question that pops into our minds? It's, it's [00:10:00] raw and it's obvious. Switching it to how takes the focus off of reasons and puts the focus on people and their stories. Why is this important? Because there's so much suspicion and mistrust and misperception across our divides when you ask people why they're gonna feel. Suddenly kind of called up, called out. They're gonna wanna be guarded. And when they think of finding reasons to answer, they're gonna be tempted to reach for reasons that others have used,
[00:10:39] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:10:39] Monica: taken shelter under. When they heard on the newscast what they saw on TikTok, they're gonna reach for those reasons and they're gonna give them to you. And then. You are gonna look at those reasons and so, and say, well, those don't make any sense. Here's my reasons they're better and the other person's not gonna budge, and you're not gonna budge. And so you're gonna repeat your reasons, but louder. [00:11:00] Trying to find different angles,
[00:11:01] you
[00:11:01] nicole: Yes. Yes, exactly
[00:11:03] Monica: yell it now. meanwhile, you're not
[00:11:07] nicole: right.
[00:11:08] Monica: And you're not learning. But the the truth is you're not really actually necessarily answering genuinely as yourself. are looking for reasons in a divided mistrustful and scary time. When we see in the research, people are afraid sometimes to say what
[00:11:24] nicole: Right.
[00:11:25] Monica: about things.
[00:11:26] They're cautious, they're guarded all the time. So the. The thing is to remove us from those contexts where we are so likely to be guarded and therefore a little unoriginal, a little dishonest, inauthentic. Not because we mean to be, but because we're trying to survive the interaction. So if you go, how did you come to believe that? What you're asking for is, is a story. You're asking someone to give you a tour and walk you down the path they took to some conclusion of putting them on trial, which
[00:11:57] nicole: right.
[00:11:57] Monica: that's gonna feel a lot of the times. [00:12:00] So it doesn't, this is not a script. You don't actually have to say the words, how did you come to believe?
[00:12:03] You know, it's more about, did that ever happen to you? Or when did you, do you remember when you started, you know, sensing that
[00:12:12] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:12:12] Monica: came down on this. that gets people to talk about. Their own internal story because when you talk about your story, there's nothing to contest about it.
[00:12:22] It's like fake news. Like, no, there's no fake
[00:12:24] nicole: Right.
[00:12:24] Monica: I know where I was five years ago. Like, you get, you get to step away from that level of scrutiny and just connect as humans.
[00:12:33] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:12:34] Monica: gets built.
[00:12:34] nicole: Well, and also, I mean, when you were talking about just connecting as humans, that's where the misconceptions come in. When you tell your own story, those misconceptions start to go away. and that we all do this all day long,
[00:12:47] Jolene: Yep.
[00:12:48] nicole: day. And now we're in these hyper. As, as from your book, the, the siloed we're in our own silos,
[00:12:56] and the media's feeding us, uh, what we wanna hear. [00:13:00] Right. I looked at your, um, your kolby, And there was a really smart student was about misconceptions and it was about, you know what I'm talking about, about political violence, and it was, I think it was right after Charlie Kirk had been assassinated.
[00:13:18] When you went to Colby, maybe. I think that timing was about that and how far off the mis can you talk about that question and,
[00:13:26] Monica: Yeah. Honestly, I think this is the. of trivia that I wish everybody fully understood is how wrong we get each other when we're asked to estimate other people's perspectives on things. If they are on the other side of us politically, we are all terrible. A lot of folks just kind of assume like, well, my side, like we, no, we get it.
[00:13:50] It's them that hate us. They, they're, they don't understand it. I was like, no, look in the mirror, dude. We're all doing that, and in this. In this instance, it was a, a survey, [00:14:00] and I don't have the numbers in front of me, but it was a survey that showed that both sides thought the other side supported political violence degrees
[00:14:09] nicole: I, I felt like it was like 40, 42%, and in reality it was like 1% and 2%.
[00:14:17] Monica: nuts. there's so
[00:14:18] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:14:19] Monica: those
[00:14:19] nicole: Yeah.
[00:14:20] Monica: and some of those surveys I think are just less robust than others. You can find probably a survey that a social scientist will tell you is not very well done. That might show some large numbers. Right. But you have to like. You have to parse it out. So the, the, the folks who are being very careful about this see very low levels of supportive political violence, but very high levels of projections of support for
[00:14:42] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:14:42] Monica: side. So if you think the other side would go that far, well, gee, you
[00:14:48] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:14:48] Monica: far just to protect yourself. Or if they're doing it, we can do too. And this is, this is a cycle of, um, projections about hate same. There's all these studies that show, I mean, an early one that I put in my book [00:15:00] was. Both sides believe the other side
[00:15:03] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:15:03] Monica: twice as much as they actually do. So, so, so yeah, it's misperceptions. I, and in fact, there was also like full
[00:15:09] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:15:09] Monica: studies today, but there was a giant sort of study of studies out of
[00:15:13] nicole: a study of studies.
[00:15:14] Monica: Willer. Yeah. They, they exist, but this guy named Rob Willer, who's a master at this stuff. And, um, they were looking for interventions. They actually tested real world interventions and their impact on reducing support for political violence and the number one intervention. In terms of impact was correcting misperceptions. That's it. we just get each other right, we'll have taken a giant leap forward. And that is so hard because so much of the media and the signals are exaggerations not always intending to be so misleading, but they are, and they leave us with horrible impressions of each other.
[00:15:49] Meanwhile, we are too afraid of each other to do what
[00:15:52] Jolene: So, so how do we do that? I mean, how do we, if we, if we are being fed from each side our, you know, our [00:16:00] media and our social media and, and all that, how do we get through those misconceptions?
[00:16:06] Monica: I, I really think it's that foundation I talked about earlier. You have to talk to somebody. A flesh and blood walking human creature,
[00:16:15] Jolene: Yep. Yep.
[00:16:16] Monica: Not an ai,
[00:16:17] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:16:18] Monica: an actual messy human whom you can't predict and whom you might have to be a little vulnerable around, um, and might be a little vulnerable with you and check it out, as a journalist, I mean, I, I came up in journalism and there's this joke rule about how important
[00:16:36] Jolene: Hmm,
[00:16:37] Monica: check your facts, right?
[00:16:38] If your mother says she loves you, check it out. I love
[00:16:42] that. I love, I've always loved it, uh, yeah, if the world is telling you, you know, you're conservative, that liberals are condescending, hateful snobs that hate America, check it out. if the world is telling you that [00:17:00] conservatives are, I don't know, like all the iss that you can imagine putting at the end of words and, and just want people to lose their freedoms. Check it out. Is that really true? I, I don't know how you check it out without at least checking some primary
[00:17:16] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:17:16] Monica: another lesson I got in journalism. And by the way, in school, I was taught to trust the secondary, tertiary quartile sources. At least my
[00:17:27] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:17:28] Monica: a good grade on my reports, right? So if that's what we all learned, why, why don't we recognize that people are the
[00:17:34] Jolene: Um, okay. So that, I think this goes, this is a great segue into your, your Sherman, Oregon, um, project and, and that whole, uh, you, you actually went in and did a project that absolutely exemplifies what you're talking about. So tell us a little bit about that and, had it all turned out.
[00:17:57] Monica: Yeah, this [00:18:00] was way back in the year of, right after the 2016 election. I had started a. Publication here in true blue Democratic Seattle. the day after that election was shocking in many Democratic areas, for sure, across the country, including here. It felt dead. And after that, because some of the values we held as an organization, we were trying to be closer to people than most other local news.
[00:18:30] And so we also held as a strong value curiosity, and so.
[00:18:37] nicole: We.
[00:18:37] Monica: asked people, what, what do you think will be important now? And we heard back, I just don't know any republicans and conservatives. I don't, I mean, I, maybe I do, but, but I'm hearing in the news about folks who live very different lives than I do. long story short, we ended up finding out that Sherman County, Oregon is the nearest county [00:19:00] geographically to King County, Washington, where Seattle is, that voted exactly opposite. in that year's presidential election, so it was completely flipped and more for Trump. So we said.
[00:19:13] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:19:14] Monica: could we, could we find someone there who might help us bring these worlds together? And it is a county of some 2000 people. It's small. It borders the Washington, Oregon border. It's all agriculture. It's. A sea of beautiful wheat fields. I didn't know any of this at the time. I was just Googling. ended up, uh, connecting with someone who would become a dear friend, Sandy McNabb.
[00:19:39] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:19:39] Monica: passed away
[00:19:40] Jolene: Oh.
[00:19:40] Monica: I was at his
[00:19:41] nicole: Sorry.
[00:19:41] Monica: got to meet his family. Incredible, incredible person. Just a legendary agricultural agent for the county and. Boy, he taught me a lot. We got on the phone with him over and over and planned this experience and ended up taking a busload of [00:20:00] liberal seattleites who were ready for what this was and for what this was not.
[00:20:05] We were very careful to say, if you're get on a bus to go educate people, you don't belong on this trip. is not what we're doing. This is, this is understanding and curiosity. We don't wanna hear any of that kind of thing. And we got
[00:20:18] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:20:19] Monica: people on that bus. And we met wonderful people in Morrow,
[00:20:24] nicole: Very small town, like
[00:20:26] Monica: like
[00:20:26] nicole: of people.
[00:20:27] Monica: And we had 16 show up, so it was a high penetration.
[00:20:30] Jolene: the impetus behind this then was, was curiosity. And it was the,
[00:20:35] Monica: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:35] Jolene: in Seattle couldn't understand for the life of them why somebody would vote for Trump. And, and I think this was, this goes back to why Nicole and I started this podcast. It was the day after the 2024 election and said the same thing. all of her liberal friends were calling her because they knew that she had a conservative friend and they were saying, could you get some answers for us?
[00:20:58] 'cause we don't know what the hell just [00:21:00] happened And. And it was funny because. Nicole was like, okay, I, I gotta understand this. And so I feel like it's the same thing that happened, you know, in, in Sherman County that then you took, take these people and they really, you got to learn that the, like the, the agriculture community, the, the farmers had a completely different agenda Their priorities were completely different,
[00:21:29] Monica: Exactly, and the assumptions that Urban Seattleites brought we're missing so many variables because they were mostly focused on their own
[00:21:40] Jolene: yeah.
[00:21:41] Monica: their own experiences. And this is what we lose when we don't ask other people how, how, how. When we don't hear other people's stories, we lose the fact that different paths walked through life in this country show you different concerns. we'll lead you to put a different priority on problems and how to solve them. And that's exactly [00:22:00] what we found in Sherman County. And on the bus ride back, you couldn't
[00:22:03] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:22:04] Monica: hear yourself. Think people were just a buzz on some of the things we learned. was really cool and really inspiring.
[00:22:10] And I'm still in touch, in touch with, you know, everyone who was on that trip. And, um, some of the folks ended up being, being quite lit by that, you know, and, and carried it. Same with the folks who showed up from Sherman County. I've been in touch with them
[00:22:20] nicole: Were they, when you guys got in the rooms, what did that look like? Were you doing exercises? Were you, like, how did that, how did it work?
[00:22:28] Monica: Yeah, it was really important to not go straight into some kind of
[00:22:31] nicole: Yeah.
[00:22:32] Monica: part of the skill. Of all of this talking across differences is to understand that the, the people have to come before the
[00:22:42] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:22:42] Monica: Um, you have to see each other as humans. So the very first thing we did was we showed up with a house warming gift.
[00:22:48] Um, you know, and a card and a, and a plant. They were hold, they were hosting us. Um, they had a meal that had been donated. Just lovely sandwiches and we shared a meal without any [00:23:00] agenda. Before that, we hopped on a bus and Sandy and some friends gave us a
[00:23:05] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:23:05] Monica: of the wheat fields, and we just saw the rolling hills and we understood different parts of the seasons and what kinds of wheat it was and all of this, and that was so important.
[00:23:17] nicole: That wasn't.
[00:23:18] Monica: was maybe the most important part of the whole experience. It's critical that people feel seen. Before you just start fighting, you have to just know who are you and here's who I am, demonstrate, give yourself the opportunity to demonstrate that
[00:23:35] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:23:35] Monica: I care about you. That there's some level of I'm here and I'm, I accept you.
[00:23:41] I. I'm, I feel welcome by you and I, I'm trying to welcome you back. That's extremely hard when there's so many differences. And there was nervousness. I could tell there was a tension in the air, you know? And then by the time lunch was over and we started, was, my heart was pounding just outta my chest.
[00:23:59] [00:24:00] And the first question we asked everybody was, what do you hope to take away from this experience that's gonna make you feel like it was worth it For the folks in Seattle, they drove. Five hours.
[00:24:09] nicole: Yeah.
[00:24:10] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:24:10] Monica: This was not a little trip. So, and it
[00:24:13] Jolene: I,
[00:24:13] Monica: then that I started to breathe easy because one after another, you couldn't even tell
[00:24:18] Jolene: Hmm,
[00:24:18] Monica: was from Sherman County, which person
[00:24:19] Jolene: hmm.
[00:24:19] Monica: from King County.
[00:24:20] They were all saying the same things we're so divided. I just want to understand, I'm just tired of the yelling. I. understand why our politicians have to behave the way they do. I like to think that I'm a curious and open-minded person, but I don't get to practice that one after the other. You know, older farmers, younger Seattleite, whoever. Once we went around and everybody kind of gave that message, I was like, we're gonna be good. And all my, I had like a crisis response. Me and my co-founder, Annika, we had planned scenarios like, what if somebody yells and like flings a pen at someone? I don't know. What if someone storms out of the room?
[00:24:59] [00:25:00] Not even close. I honestly, one of the biggest lessons I learned was, why was I so afraid? What was I so afraid of putting people in a room together? When did I lose this much trust?
[00:25:11] nicole: I think that when people in the rooms with each other, they don't like, we've created this society with social media and everything that. Uh, people feel, uh, emboldened to behave badly, and that when you are in person
[00:25:29] Monica: Yeah.
[00:25:31] nicole: it's like, are you really gonna scream at that person?
[00:25:35] Monica: Exactly.
[00:25:36] nicole: you are. I mean, even that there is, that YouTube. Show that put one conservative with a thousand liberals or one liberal with a thousand conservative and they just scream at each other. I'm like, this isn't, this isn't real. This is performative. And when you really like get in the rooms with people, everyone. Wants to be seen and heard and loved, and they're scared [00:26:00] and they don't wanna sound stupid and they wanna feel accepted. And there was one thing that I remember as you were talking about, had an example in your book about, and I'm gonna get this wrong, but it was like a water law or
[00:26:14] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:26:14] nicole: about water ownership that the Seattleites and, and you know, New York City girl.
[00:26:20] I was like, what? What's that?
[00:26:22] Monica: Isn't it
[00:26:23] nicole: Yeah.
[00:26:23] Monica: were all like,
[00:26:24] nicole: Can you explain what that is? 'cause that was a big, a big aha.
[00:26:28] Monica: It's called the Waters of the United States rule and it's, it's like, you know, several paragraphs in federal regulations about land, for people in the cities, I don't care. I, you know, I got my apartment. I don't care. Uh, for people who own acres and acres of farms or work on those acres and acres of farms, it's a completely different story. And the waters of the United States rule, the fear was that it could be red and interpreted to mean that if there's a big rainstorm [00:27:00] between hills and there's a valley on the, on your farm, and suddenly the next morning there's a pond there that the government can come and say, oh. That's a body of water. That's our land now. Bye-bye. sounds crazy, but I look, I looked into it. It's not crazy. There's been, there's been a bunch of close
[00:27:19] nicole: Really?
[00:27:20] Monica: control of land and farmers. I mean, farming was one of the first industries, you know, family owned farms.
[00:27:27] They're still
[00:27:28] nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:29] Monica: um, and the people in the cities doesn't have no connection to them anymore. But, uh, but for these farmers, many of them, like there was a fourth generation farmer there,
[00:27:38] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:27:38] Monica: read this rule back in front and they do not trust Democrats to know the first thing about how to safeguard. Their interests in something like this, but they trust Republicans and they trust the businessman who just became president. Hey, he understands something about this. And that was a big motivator the farmers in Sherman County, and it seemed to be a heck of a lot [00:28:00] stronger than a lot of the social issues that some of the liberals assumed that conservatives in Sherman County actually
[00:28:05] Jolene: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:06] Monica: Maha ha.
[00:28:06] You know what I mean? Like for malevolent reasons and all this. It was just not quite that
[00:28:12] Jolene: Well, okay, so what was it then that the conservatives learned about the liberals in Seattle?
[00:28:19] Monica: I remember talking with one of the folks who had been there four years later. I went down in 2020 again just to visit everybody, and he was telling me that he kind of like, he was readying himself for a bunch of people with piercings and tattoos just everywhere and, and people who, you know, he was seeing. TV tearing up the world in summer of
[00:28:42] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:42] Monica: people who, you know, who would destroy their own
[00:28:45] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:28:46] Monica: which for him was just so evil. You know, here's these small businesses or businesses of any kind, like people trying to make a living and you're just
[00:28:52] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:53] Monica: like, what is this? Right? So he had, what he saw in those liberals in his mind was a lot of, a lot of hate [00:29:00] and he was wondering back then like. You know? Yeah. Like he had an image of that, obviously not like the 2020, but, but there were already like this, this
[00:29:09] Jolene: Yeah. Yep.
[00:29:10] Monica: kind of who would just tear it all down. That was the image he had. yeah, and he was, he was delighted to see. normal people who could have just boring in some ways.
[00:29:22] You know what I mean? Like, we're not, we're not trying to tear up anything. Was was kind of what the, the liberals probably showed is like, we're, we're trying to build things too. We just, we just have the wrong
[00:29:33] Jolene: So you, uh, um, I watched your TED talk and, and you talked about, this idea of maybe we just need to divorce, you know, maybe we just need to have this, you know, it's not the United States of America. It's a divided states of America what about that idea? I mean, maybe we do, maybe we just need to say, Nope. You know what? We're better off just dividing. Yep.
[00:29:58] Monica: I've heard people argue for [00:30:00] that in surprisingly, almost like peaceful ways. You know? This is the way, this is the way we just give in
[00:30:06] and we create separate societies and. I'd be lying if I, if I said like, there isn't like a
[00:30:12] Jolene: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:13] Monica: undercurrent to that. It's like, well, let's just, you know, let's just draw the circles where they seem to be already. Um, you know, I see, I see many problems with that. One of them being that scenario is based on a lie. scenario is based on the idea that we
[00:30:33] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:30:33] Monica: divided. Research shows that we are not, we are not that grossly divided. folks at the extremes tend to be the ones who most believe that and most. Push that narrative because it tends
[00:30:49] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:30:49] Monica: political ends, right? Fear and rage mobilize people to the polls, and those extreme voices are good at that. And so the parties go, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fear, you know? Yeah. [00:31:00] Extremes. Sure. Come on in. Let's, let's use your rhetoric. Let's all work together
[00:31:05] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:31:05] Monica: freak people out and convince them that the other side is not just like disagreeing with them on a few things about this issue, but. Would destroy the very values that they
[00:31:16] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:31:17] Monica: around this issue. It's complete bs. Um, so that's one thing is I think that that would be a harsh and rash action because it's based mostly on kind of the media and projection and narrative layer, uh, that is making everything a fun house mirror right now and making it hard to tell what's real and what's not. if it were based on reality, then okay, maybe that's a conversation. Even then.
[00:31:39] Jolene: Yep.
[00:31:39] Monica: a lot of problems with it. Including, I can already tell that each side is getting dumber.
[00:31:45] Jolene: Did you say dumber or dimmer? Dumb dumber. Okay.
[00:31:47] Monica: know, when dumber,
[00:31:49] nicole: She said dumb.
[00:31:50] Monica: too. Dumber, I think. I think each side is getting dumber and the research shows us why surrounded by people who share our
[00:31:58] nicole: Yes.
[00:31:58] Monica: we
[00:31:59] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:31:59] Monica: our blind [00:32:00] spots. So. Each side is getting a narrower worldview, the more time it spends with only itself.
[00:32:08] Um, while also believing that it's seeing enough of the world to make judicious decisions for a thriving and healthy society. We need each other. logo of my podcast is a beating human heart, and what I love about it, many things, but one of them is that. The
[00:32:24] nicole: there.
[00:32:24] Monica: there is, you know, red and
[00:32:26] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:32:26] Monica: and we got with, we got the arteries, and you can't have one without the other. It's, it's, we're part of that same beating heart. We need each other to beat. That's what I believe. I think once, once the United States of America starts carving itself up because of ideological differences, something extremely primitively Will die. I, I, I,
[00:32:49] nicole: Maybe I'm putting way too much on that.
[00:32:51] Monica: much on that, um, but really proud of us. I'm, I'm proud of, of the way that we have fought each [00:33:00] other in order
[00:33:00] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:33:01] Monica: stronger and gotten better at fighting each other right as we've gone. There's been a lot of wounds and a lot of scars, boy, and a lot of pain and a lot of hate and all these things, but we keep emerging stronger and stronger.
[00:33:14] So if we choose this to be the moment where.
[00:33:17] Jolene: That we throw it? Yeah.
[00:33:20] Monica: it.
[00:33:20] nicole: yeah, yeah,
[00:33:21] Monica: on. You know? And I don't think anyone's gonna end up better off in that scenario. I, I, I just don't
[00:33:26] nicole: Do you, Monica, do you see any hope?
[00:33:30] Monica: Oh yeah.
[00:33:33] nicole: Tell us.
[00:33:34] Monica: Uh, I mean in U2
[00:33:36] nicole: Yeah.
[00:33:36] Monica: I'm just like a wash in the hope that you two represent I mean, podcasts like this, were not, were even more rare. You know,
[00:33:45] nicole: Yeah.
[00:33:46] Monica: when we did the Sherman County
[00:33:47] nicole: Yeah,
[00:33:47] Monica: it just would've been unheard of. Now, there is a universal, I think, consensus honestly, around how necessary this is what you two are doing. Now, what I'm hearing is people [00:34:00] acknowledging that it's necessary, but then telling me
[00:34:02] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:34:02] nicole: exactly. hear that a lot.
[00:34:04] Monica: hearing right, but I'm not hearing a lot of people saying it's not necessary or it's not important. They're carving out the reasons or the corners where they can't
[00:34:12] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:12] Monica: or where they think another, deeper, more deeply held value.
[00:34:17] Uh, usually I gotta fight for this one thing, and in order to do that, I can't be talking to the other side, I don't think is correct, but a lot of people have, a lot of, have walked different paths and they believe it's correct for them in that moment. I'm not gonna begrudge them that, it's, it's tipping.
[00:34:31] nicole: it.
[00:34:31] Monica: It just doesn't feel like it's tipping because it's happening at the same time as we're seeing the consequences such reactionary, vicious, political comportment play out on the national stage from both parties. And, you know, people will hear that and say, both parties, like only one party is in power, and look what they're doing.
[00:34:51] And, and if you're on the left and you're saying that. I get you. But look, this is how escalation works. You know, usually the next, [00:35:00] the next party is gonna take something to an egregious extreme even more. And I'm not, I'm not trying to make, make an equivalence. I, I think that, think that the left and the right, uh, can do awful things in their own very unique ways.
[00:35:13] Um, and we should always be very vigilant and aware of the damage happening to the entire system based on whatever's happening right now. And you were talking about the shutdown. I gotta tell you, the image from this shutdown that just aggravated the heck outta me was just the image of, you know, the, the Republican leader, speaking at a podium.
[00:35:35] And the sign at the podium says the Democrat shut down. And then the Democrat leader speaking at the podium and the sign on the podium says the GOP shut down. And I'm like, you two are like my
[00:35:47] Jolene: We have said that. Yep.
[00:35:48] Monica: I'm
[00:35:48] nicole: we, we, we, we talked about that. We did a ch a government shutdown episode, and we're like, are they three?
[00:35:53] Monica: What?
[00:35:54] nicole: happening?
[00:35:54] Monica: Yeah, is ridiculous.
[00:35:56] nicole: voted for you and you guys need to all [00:36:00] go away. We
[00:36:01] Monica: Get the
[00:36:01] nicole: get the job done.
[00:36:02] Monica: what I'm hearing? I'm
[00:36:03] Jolene: Yep.
[00:36:04] Monica: tantrums. Well, if the Republicans, if the Democrats is blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, shared purpose
[00:36:09] nicole: Yeah.
[00:36:09] Monica: you're there with a shared purpose. Part of what's going on now is that for the Republican Party, their purpose has gotten bigger than the shared purpose and for the Democrat party.
[00:36:17] Same. And when you start playing those games where the
[00:36:21] Jolene: Yep,
[00:36:21] Monica: shared purpose, we start to lose our nation altogether. It's, it's embarrassing. It's humiliating. get paid a lot of money and get a lot of prestige to be, to be like, we can't do it because you, you just being mean. And I know, I don't mean to demean, I
[00:36:37] nicole: No, we,
[00:36:38] Jolene: No, that is Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:36:41] Monica: uh.
[00:36:42] nicole: true. true.
[00:36:44] Monica: That's not an excuse. The only reason we accept that as an excuse is because we are already so poisoned to look at the other side as being just that
[00:36:53] Jolene: Yep.
[00:36:54] Monica: That's why we believe
[00:36:54] nicole: Right,
[00:36:55] Monica: Yeah. They are bullies. They're stupid. You're right. They're foolish. They're terrible. We already [00:37:00] blame the people in our lives.
[00:37:01] We know on the other side for
[00:37:02] nicole: right,
[00:37:03] Monica: we didn't do that, if we were had more resilience. We would laugh at this.
[00:37:08] nicole: right.
[00:37:09] Monica: We, we don't have
[00:37:09] Jolene: Yep.
[00:37:10] Monica: to laugh. Too many of
[00:37:11] Jolene: Yep. Now I think there is a small coalition from both sides, and I've seen interviews with, um, it's like a, a New York Congressman who is a Republican with a Democrat from Nevada or you know, I don't know. I think it's a small faction that is not, um. Probably getting paid a lot of money and, you know, who aren't the senators that have been in there for 40 years.
[00:37:39] They're the, you know, relatively new that are trying to work together. And, um, I, I, I think that's where our hope lies, is with, you know, the ones that are finally gonna say, come on enough.
[00:37:54] nicole: Yeah.
[00:37:55] Monica: know, I know. And the truth is they've always been there. [00:38:00] The really good politicians there are way more of them than not. It's just, again, the media, the amplification machines, they
[00:38:07] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:07] Monica: a word in
[00:38:08] nicole: Right, right,
[00:38:09] Monica: I've known so many really incredibly hardworking politicians that like struggle to get on any of the news channels to talk about what they're working on because
[00:38:18] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:38:18] Monica: is what sells.
[00:38:19] And so
[00:38:20] nicole: right, right.
[00:38:20] Monica: the whole information system is, is
[00:38:22] nicole: Yeah.
[00:38:23] Monica: way, but, but things are happening because of the
[00:38:27] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:28] Monica: people are hitting the level of intolerance for the kind of rupture. That is happening to families and communities everywhere. Not to mention the dysfunction. I
[00:38:37] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:38:38] Monica: us
[00:38:39] Jolene: totally.
[00:38:40] nicole: Yes.
[00:38:41] Monica: fighting over blaming and whatever.
[00:38:42] We, we have a job to do, and we are a lot better and smarter than
[00:38:46] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:48] Monica: I think the, I think the tolerance is just kind of hit, hit, hit the floor, um, and, and change happens from there. So I'm, I'm, I'm working on the revolution
[00:38:57] nicole: I like it.
[00:38:58] Jolene: Yes.
[00:38:59] nicole: Yes, we [00:39:00] are. Yes, we are. Oh my gosh, Monica,
[00:39:02] Jolene: Oh, absolutely.
[00:39:04] nicole: think. I think it might be time for a good for
[00:39:07] Jolene: Yes.
[00:39:08] nicole: Do you have one for us?
[00:39:10]
[00:39:14] Monica: Valerie Cower wrote a book called See No Stranger, and she talks about looking at every human being as a potential
[00:39:25] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:39:26] Monica: that you don't know yet. you are a sister. I do not yet know you are a brother. I do not yet know.
[00:39:31] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:39:32] Monica: find that really inspiring and when I catch myself looking at people through the lens of my emotions for that moment, I'm tired, so everybody's uninteresting. I'm irritated, so everyone's in my way. I have to take that veil off. By remembering that person I'm with their own extremely complex, vivid life.
[00:39:58] They had their own irritations [00:40:00] and
[00:40:00] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:40:00] Monica: I don't know what they went through. I don't know who they've been talking to. I'm an extra in their story. In fact, that's probably the good for the soul I wanna leave you with. You are an you. You are the center of your story, but you're also an extra in
[00:40:12] Jolene: Oh, that is so good.
[00:40:13] Monica: Um, right. Like, ugh. There's a word that was added to the dictionary a few years ago. It's called Sonder.
[00:40:23] nicole: yes.
[00:40:23] Monica: Sonder is the realization that other human beings have lives as vivid and complex as yours. And to me it's a physical sensation. The awareness of that filled with this warmth. What do I have to fear?
[00:40:36] And I recognize that sometimes we do have to fear each other, I like injecting myself with
[00:40:41] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:40:43] Monica: And it makes, it makes interactions with other people so much more possible and mysterious, which just
[00:40:50] Jolene: Absolutely. That is so great.
[00:40:52] nicole: great.
[00:40:53] Jolene: okay, so now we're gonna play a little game of would you Rather,
[00:40:57] Monica: Okay.
[00:40:57]
[00:41:02] Jolene: would you rather. Be a guest speaker in front of a group of people that purely align with your train of thought. Don't align at all with your line of thinking, or 50 50,
[00:41:20] Monica: 50. 50 because. Okay. I, I wouldn't say just me versus an entire crowd that's disagreeing because if I am on stage speaking and they're not, that's not enough parody,
[00:41:35] P-A-R-I-T-Y, uh, for me to learn from them as much as they're learning from me. If it's a 50 50 group, then I can model. What I speak about is how to interact across difference so I can model something that I could have them exercise
[00:41:54] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:41:54] Monica: there in that same room. You know how
[00:41:56] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:41:57] Monica: rooms are.
[00:41:58] nicole: Yes.
[00:41:58] Monica: would much rather be in a [00:42:00] 50 50 room.
[00:42:01] Jolene: That is awesome.
[00:42:02] nicole: I love it. I love it.
[00:42:04] Jolene: Nicole, what would your be,
[00:42:05] nicole: oh, 50 50. 50
[00:42:07] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:42:07] nicole: Absolutely. 'cause you have an opportunity to learn from. The people that, that don't align with you. I think we've gone to this point, like it's so boring. I have, have we not acknowledged how boring this is, that we all like think alike and talk alike and see all the same shit.
[00:42:24] Like I like learning from other people, like everyone has. Different experiences, and we've talked about this a lot, Monica, where even the words liberal and conservative, it's gotten to the point where if you're a liberal, you must believe all of these things. Or if you're a conservative, you must believe all of these things.
[00:42:44] And if you dare say something different,
[00:42:47] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:42:47] nicole: you're out of that tribe too. And then so, and it's like, wait a minute,
[00:42:52] Monica: Makes no sense.
[00:42:52] nicole: am me with all of my stories and all of my feelings that has made me this complex human just like everyone [00:43:00] else. Everyone else. And how cool is it when you actually take the time learn from each other, right?
[00:43:08] Jolene: Absolutely.
[00:43:09] Monica: everything.
[00:43:10] nicole: huge. It's huge.
[00:43:12] Monica: I don't want it any other
[00:43:13] nicole: Right?
[00:43:14] Jolene: That's good.
[00:43:15] nicole: Uh, do you have a, would you rather Monica.
[00:43:17] Monica: would you rather zip into the future and give advice to your 80-year-old self or zip into the past and give advice to your 16-year-old self?
[00:43:31] nicole: I wanna go to the past because I feel like I'm getting so much more wise the older I get. And if I could just tell that 16-year-old, it's gonna be okay.
[00:43:43] Jolene: I think I'd go the other way because I think, everything that I, the stupid, stupid things that I did in the past made me who I am today. I need to let my 80-year-old self know that it's gonna be okay. I have so much more anxiety now than I ever have in my life.
[00:43:58] And whether that's 'cause I'm [00:44:00] menopause or just because of the world that we live in, I, yeah, I think I need to, I need to go talk to my 80-year-old self and go, okay, it's, we're all gonna, we're gonna survive this.
[00:44:13] Monica: Yeah.
[00:44:14] nicole: I love
[00:44:15] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:44:16] Monica: Beautiful.
[00:44:16] nicole: I love that.
[00:44:18] Jolene: Monica, thank you so much. This has truly been.
[00:44:21] nicole: you so,
[00:44:21] Jolene: honor to have you, you are brilliant and beautiful, and you have so much experience and, and so much to, uh, knowledge. I think that our listener needs to hear. I mean, we can just say things all day, but you're the expert here and, and you've got, um, just the, the work that you've done on this topic is fantastic and gives us hope for sure.
[00:44:44] nicole: Yes.
[00:44:44] Monica: Yeah.
[00:44:44] nicole: Thank you.
[00:44:45] Monica: I, I, I wanna emphasize though that this goes the other way, and I tell this to Brave Angels volunteers. I tell this to folks who are innovating in their own communities, the, the people who are routinely going across the divide. Are [00:45:00] the revolution. Like you two are the revolution.
[00:45:01] You two are the resistance. You the one that I care about. You two, you two are the counterculture, right? In a society where division and at least verbal violence is the norm, conversation is counterculture. As my friend Mannum likes to say, like, so pat yourselves on the back. Tell your kids
[00:45:19] Jolene: Oh, I love it.
[00:45:20] nicole: Oh,
[00:45:20] Monica: See what they say.
[00:45:21] nicole: thank you.
[00:45:22] Monica: you are so you, you are doing the work that matters most. I'm just trying to get more people to dare
[00:45:27] Jolene: Uh, that is awesome.
[00:45:29] nicole: Wow.
[00:45:30] Jolene: So cool.
[00:45:31] nicole: you so, so
[00:45:32] Jolene: Thank you.
[00:45:33]
