Is Minimum Wage the Real Problem with Tipping Culture?
I have a love-hate relationship with tipping.
I love the original idea. Someone takes care of you, they are sharp and kind and actually paying attention, and you get to say thank you in a way that matters. But what we have now is not that. It is a screen in your face with three big buttons and a tiny “custom” option hiding in the corner. It is tipping for someone handing you a paper cup. It makes you feel cheap or rude if you hesitate. It is dressed up like gratitude, but it feels more like a sneaky business model.
Once you look at the history, it gets even harder to romanticize. Tipping started as a power thing, a master rewarding a servant. Wealthy Americans brought it back from Europe in the 1800s, and a lot of people hated it because it felt classist and un-American. Then it took off in the South after slavery was abolished, when employers hired liberated Black men for service work and paid them almost nothing, expecting tips to make up the difference. It spread nationwide through the railways. And the irony is Europe does not even tip like we do anymore.
Now we are stuck with a system where the restaurant owner keeps menu prices looking “reasonable”, and the customer quietly pays the wage bill at the end. The onus is on the patron, not the owner. And it has been protected by law for decades. In 1938, tipped workers were left out of federal minimum wage protections. In 1966, the “tip credit” made it normal for employers to pay less because tips were assumed. In 1996, tipped minimum wage was frozen at $2.13 an hour, and in many places it is still basically there. Two dollars and thirteen cents. In 2026. That is not a wage, that is a joke.
Jolene and I actually meet in the middle more than people expect. She likes tipping as a reward for good service, and honestly, so do I. Serving is hard. Most of us still tip even when service is average because we know the person is relying on it. But that is the problem. It is not a bonus anymore. It is the wage. And once it becomes the wage, everything gets weird. Food is already expensive, so you are tipping a percentage on a bigger bill, and half the time the service is worse. It starts to feel gross. It starts to feel like guilt, not gratitude.
I do not think the answer has to be all or nothing. Maybe we do not “ban tipping” overnight. Maybe we raise the tipped wage so it is not a joke. Tie it to the state minimum wage as a percentage, so workers have stability on slow days and tips can go back to being what they were meant to be. A thank you, not rent money.
Then there are ratings, which somehow make the whole thing worse. Yelp and Google turned everyone into a critic, and now people rate everything, constantly. Restaurants. Trades. Uber drivers. You get the “how did we do” text before the problem even has time to show itself. And yes, ratings can help consumers, because we do not trust ads anymore. But they also let unhappy revenge people take swings at small businesses. Jolene shared a story about someone claiming they got the wrong product in the wrong box, something that was not even physically possible. People do try to work the system. And to make it messier, reviews can be bought.
Uber and Lyft is where tipping and rating collide in the most uncomfortable way. You are asked to rate someone who drove like a maniac, but you know you are being rated too. So how honest can you be? I (Nicole) talked about being terrified in a late-night ride, ready to report the driver, and then not doing it. Jolene talked about getting so carsick from a driver’s weird acceleration that she got out early. The system makes you feel like telling the truth will come back on you.
So here is where we land. $2.13 an hour is bananas. Tipping has become a wage subsidy, and customers are being guilted into carrying it. And if we are going to keep rating everything, we should at least remember there are real humans on the other side of that screen. Take a breath. Contact the owner first. Give people a chance to fix it before you light them up in public.
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[00:00:00] nicole: She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money. And we say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud.
[00:00:18] Hello Jolene.
[00:00:19] Jolene: Nicole.
[00:00:21] nicole: And today y'all, uh, we are talking about this tipping and rating culture that we have found ourselves in. and it's interesting because at first, Joe, when I thought about doing this show with you today, I was like, oh, are we just gonna sort of bitch about tipping and raiding? And then I thought, you know what, it might be a good idea to find out where. This practice began, like the history of it. And so, and this is one of the things that I'm just so thrilled that we have this show because it gives me the opportunity very selfishly to learn about all these [00:01:00] different things every week.
[00:01:01] Jolene: share it with me.
[00:01:02] nicole: That's right. And so, and share it with all of you that are listening and watching. So, so here's the thing, and maybe you guys know this. I didn't know this. First of all, the word tip stands for to ensure prompt aptitude
[00:01:18] Jolene: I
[00:01:18] nicole: as otherwise, otherwise known as promptness. Um, and it actually started tipping in the middle Ages in Europe, and it was a master serfdom, practice where if the master thought that the surf was doing a good job, they might give them a little extra tip.
[00:01:36] So then, um. It didn't start until wealthy Americans went to travel in Europe in the 1850s, and then they brought the practice back to America in the 1860s. But there was a lot of resistance, and a lot of Americans thought it was un-American and they thought, we don't wanna do anything that Europe does.
[00:01:59] [00:02:00] We left Europe for the reason, it's started to take off in the American South after the abolishment of slavery. and it really took off during the railway. World.
[00:02:15] George Pullman, who owned most of the railways, he hired, um, liberated southern black men as porters and servers. And then he paid them a very tiny wage of $12 to 27 50 per month. And the rest, they were hopefully made with tips. Um, and because it was a railway, it, it, travel, literally the practice of tipping became a, uh, nationwide practice.
[00:02:46] Ironically, Europe doesn't tip anymore,
[00:02:48] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:02:49] nicole: which is funny to me. and of course that became also very tricky at that time because it wasn't like abolish, like slavery was abolished and there was no more [00:03:00] racism. People could use that as a way of people of color. Or women when that eventually happened, uh, that women were working, that they didn't necessarily, it was a, it was definitely a power, um, push and pull whether you were going to, receive a tip or not.
[00:03:18] But the practice of, restaurants took that on very early on, which has then put the, the onus on the customer and not on the restaurant worker, which is, um, really, really,
[00:03:32] Jolene: you mean.
[00:03:33] nicole: I'm sorry, the restaurant owner. Thank you. The restaurant owner. And then in 1938, uh, the United States, uh, passed the Fair Labor Standard Act and it established a federal minimum wage except for, tipped workers.
[00:03:49] They were not included. And then this I thought was wild. So in 1966, Congress created a quote tip credit, and at the [00:04:00] time it was for tip workers that they had to, it was like a 40 to 40 to 60% of the minimum wage. They had to, uh, delegate to a tip worker. But in 1996, when Clinton. And Gingrich, there were the photographs of the two of them together.
[00:04:21] They passed, um, a minimum wage freeze at $2 and 13 cents an hour for tipped workers, which to this day, 43 states still have $2 and 13 cents an hour. what is it? Go on. It goes on the customer, it goes on the patron I'm very curious. Jolene, let's start here. As the conservative in the room. what are your feelings about, tipping and, minimum wage and all of the things you were just talking about?
[00:04:56] Jolene: I go back to why it started [00:05:00] was rewarding. Good, service. And I think when you are working in a service industry, I like it. I, I think about eating at a restaurant and, you know, when we get really good service, man, we're gonna tip a bunch. And so, and if you get average service. Well, I guess I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth here, because then you get average service, you're still gonna tip because you feel obligated and you feel, and you know, except for those, you know, seven states, you know, that they're relying on that tip. And I think if, if that's a hard job, being a server is a hard job.
[00:05:38] nicole: It's a and so
[00:05:39] Jolene: I think, man, if the service wasn't that good, I'm still gonna tip because I know that maybe they're dealing with something else or maybe, you know, or, or a lot of times it's not the server's fault, you know? I mean, it could be the kitchen was backed up and they didn't get it out. Whatever. I, I still think, um, rewarding good [00:06:00] service. I still, I like that. Do you,
[00:06:03] nicole: It. Well, it was, it, well, it was also in 2018 was when they actually included, they passed a law that they would include the back of house, meaning the chefs and that, like in part of the pools before that they weren't even included in the tipping. Um, which,
[00:06:25] Jolene: you always, I always thought about that, like, okay, wait a second. Is, know, is the, is the, the cook is actually the one who's making our food?
[00:06:35] nicole: mm-hmm.
[00:06:35] Jolene: something or she gets something, you know,
[00:06:37] nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:06:39] Jolene: has, so I love, I love that they do that. Okay. But here's my question to you. Do you want the
[00:06:43] nicole: Okay.
[00:06:44] Jolene: to advertise that they're giving that tip in a pool?
[00:06:48] nicole: It's so funny that you ask because when I, I was worked in one particular restaurant in, in New York called Carmines that a lot of people have been to. it was the original one. The Midtown one didn't exist [00:07:00] yet, you know, it was the early nineties and they, at the time, they didn't have women's servers.
[00:07:05] They, they, they said that the plates were too heavy, which of course is a whole other can of worms. And then when they opened up the Midtown, location, they couldn't use that. Excuse, and they hired women, but I was at the front of house. I did reservations and I did hostessing, and I was on an hourly wage that was a little higher than minimum wage at the time, and I was not included in the pooling.
[00:07:31] and our restaurant did pool, and I thought it wasn't advertised, but I thought it was so smart to pool because then everyone who works as a team and doesn't compete against each other in the same way. I think if you don't pool, you know, there, there's so many thoughts about this too, because restaurants are one thing versus.
[00:07:55] Nowadays because of technology, and we can get into the rating part, [00:08:00] but basically since we kind of stopped using cash, now they have this point of sale thing that is like, and they, they're tricky.
[00:08:09] They put like to the left 25 and then they put 20 and then they put 30. And you're like, and if you're not paying attention, you're just pressing or you feel embarrassed or you feel ashamed or all the feelings you might feel. Right. And then all of our food is more expensive right now.
[00:08:26] Like restaurants are expensive, the food is expensive, and so you're tipping a percentage on a way higher bill. And a lot of times I am finding that the service. Isn't very good, but they expect you to tip on that percentage of that high bill. And you're, and as a patron, I'm thinking this is really taking away from any, it's feeling deceitful, it's feeling gross.
[00:08:55] I feel like kind of like [00:09:00] just used and disappointed and having been in the service industry, sometimes my standards are higher and I also have deep empathy. 'cause I know how hard it is, you know, both on both sides. But then when you go to, I don't know, a Starbucks, I suppose, or a, um, blue bottle in New York, like, and, and it's like tip and they've like handed you a cup.
[00:09:23] Jolene: Oh my gosh.
[00:09:25] nicole: know that bothers you because even I, I might get a cappuccino, you get a paper cup, right? And you're like, seriously?
[00:09:32] Jolene: did, did I
[00:09:32] nicole: And.
[00:09:33] Jolene: that I was at the airport and our local airport in Springfield and I go up to the little coffee counter I get a black coffee, one black coffee, and she does it on the screen and she turns the screen around so I can tip. And I'm like, I mean, I'm standing here.
[00:09:53] This, this is what bugs me when I'm the one that is stand, you're literally staying there. And so I tip her [00:10:00] 20%, I'm sure. hands me the cup because the, the coffee pot was on the other side that I had to go do it myself. And I'm like, I, like, I almost wanted to go back and go get, gimme that money back because I'm gonna
[00:10:11] nicole: Right,
[00:10:12] Jolene: I'm gonna get you
[00:10:13] nicole: but in this situation, Jolene, exactly. And so it, so it's, it's enraging. So here's my question for me, and maybe it's a liberal thing, but I am like, Hey, cafe owner, pay your people.
[00:10:28] Jolene: right.
[00:10:29] nicole: Hey, your people. Now I hear, I, I don't know, but I think Starbucks takes really good care of their employees. That's what I've heard on the street.
[00:10:36] I don't know, I don't know anyone that works there.
[00:10:38] Jolene: allow tipping anymore. I,
[00:10:40] nicole: See that be. And I think there are a couple restaurants that in New York that, that took that away, that took tipping away and they raised their prices. And to me it was like, this is such a better experience because I know that these people are being taken care of.
[00:10:59] Jolene: [00:11:00] you like the fact that you're gonna pay more
[00:11:03] nicole: Yes,
[00:11:04] Jolene: on, and, and not have to tip at all.
[00:11:06] nicole: here's the crazy part, Joe, is that all those restaurants have gone away. They really flourished during the pandemic. And I also know that the tipping culture got really massive during the pandemic because everyone felt so awful, and we need to make sure we're trying.
[00:11:25] And the good part is we're like trying to take care of each other. But now it's like, okay, we're not in the pandemic anymore and we all need to slow our roll here.
[00:11:36] Jolene: That's exactly right. So I feel like, yes, that, that during the pandemic all it, it was, it was natural to tip more, you know, 25, 30% or more, and then all of a sudden we're still doing it. I mean, because nobody wanted to be gutsy enough to go, I'm not gonna pay you that.
[00:11:53] nicole: right, right, right, right.
[00:11:55] Jolene: and looked at what are the standards, because I think this
[00:11:58] nicole: Okay.
[00:11:58] Jolene: [00:12:00] interesting, the industry standard right now at a restaurant is 18 to 22%. 18 to 22% is standard. And I
[00:12:08] nicole: Standard meaning that's what they expect their patron to, to tip.
[00:12:13] Jolene: Yeah. So exceptional service is 25% and up and poor, poor service is, you know, 15%. I don't, I mean, don't you remember when it wasn't very long ago that it was 10%? Like, I
[00:12:26] nicole: Oh my God.
[00:12:28] Jolene: I mean, does that
[00:12:28] nicole: Listen.
[00:12:29] Jolene: or does
[00:12:30] nicole: No. Well, I, this is an, this is, this is an argument that is, is in my family with my dad. Hi dad. Um, where I have, I have given him a lot of crap, uh, because he's like, why aren't we paying 10%? I'm like, it's not 1980.
[00:12:48] Jolene: I
[00:12:48] nicole: Dad, it's not 1980. And he's, and, and we get into little, tense moments sometimes.
[00:12:55] And he, and then, and then he'll be, and then he'll be like, Nicole, I tipped 20%, because, [00:13:00] you know, and I'm like, okay, good. But it's so foreign to him.
[00:13:03] Jolene: to my dad. He was a staunch d Dutchman. He was frugal with his money
[00:13:09] nicole: Gosh.
[00:13:10] Jolene: he, I would look to see how much he tipped and then
[00:13:13] nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:13:14] Jolene: and I'd put it on the
[00:13:15] nicole: That's right.
[00:13:15] Jolene: walked
[00:13:16] nicole: Me too.
[00:13:16] Jolene: I felt
[00:13:17] nicole: Me too. Me too. Exactly.
[00:13:20] Jolene: funny.
[00:13:20] nicole: Sorry dad. But it's true. you know, he, he's never worked in the service industry, so he doesn't understand necessarily how hard it can be, but I also think, yeah, why are you paying more than 10% if someone's handing you a cup of a, a paper cup?
[00:13:37] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:13:38] nicole: Like, those are very different. Things. And then in terms of the rating?
[00:13:45] Jolene: Okay. Wait, no, uh, wait.
[00:13:47] nicole: Yeah,
[00:13:47] Jolene: we gotta stick
[00:13:48] nicole: yeah, please, please, please.
[00:13:49] Jolene: the
[00:13:50] nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:13:50] Jolene: you're perfect. So don't ever let Nicole tell you anything differently.
[00:13:53] nicole: I don't,
[00:13:54] Jolene: He's perfect. Okay.
[00:13:56] nicole: perfect.
[00:13:57] Jolene: Counter service is 10 to [00:14:00] 20%. Okay. So that
[00:14:00] nicole: Oh,
[00:14:01] Jolene: feel a
[00:14:01] nicole: okay,
[00:14:02] Jolene: that that is, better
[00:14:05] nicole: okay, okay.
[00:14:06] Jolene: salons, 15 to 25%.
[00:14:10] nicole: Well that's another thing. Jolene, do you remember or I was taught this, I don't know if the owner, you were never supposed to tip the owner. And now, hi Elle. I love Renell. She's my girl. She owns her salon, but we're supposed to tip her.
[00:14:25] Jolene: I
[00:14:25] nicole: I'm like, when did that change?
[00:14:27] Jolene: same with Lynette. Hello Lynette. That Yes,
[00:14:29] nicole: Yep.
[00:14:30] Jolene: yep. I'm still gonna tip her because again, I appreciate her doing such a good job. It's not easy to cover all these grays.
[00:14:38] okay. Uber and Lyft, 10 to 20%.
[00:14:41] nicole: Oh, I gotta talk about this. Yeah. Well, I'll, I'll put a, put a pin in it.
[00:14:46] Jolene: All right. I'm gonna make a little mark next to that one, hotel. $2 to $5 per interaction. this is a question that I always have. If you're doing valet parking,
[00:14:58] nicole: Okay.
[00:14:59] Jolene: [00:15:00] tip when you pull up and give your keys to somebody? Or do you tip when they bring your car as you're leaving?
[00:15:08] nicole: I don't have a car generally, but I would say you would. Do you tip them when they bring your car after?
[00:15:15] Jolene: I've always thought the same thing, then I've
[00:15:18] nicole: Are we wrong?
[00:15:18] Jolene: well, I've read that you can do it at both times because you are,
[00:15:22] nicole: Okay.
[00:15:22] Jolene: literally giving your keys to your car to somebody. don't they deserve the money? They're gonna go park it and
[00:15:29] nicole: Why do so, but why doesn't, why doesn't the employer pay them a wage so that they don't have to rely on those tips?
[00:15:36] Jolene: Okay. That's true. Okay,
[00:15:40] nicole: that out there.
[00:15:40] Jolene: but so
[00:15:42] nicole: Okay.
[00:15:42] Jolene: $2 to $5 per interaction. If here's,
[00:15:47] nicole: That's,
[00:15:47] Jolene: question.
[00:15:49] nicole: you just broke.
[00:15:50] Jolene: if you've stayed for a couple of days,
[00:15:52] housekeeping, uh, came and cleaned your
[00:15:54] nicole: Yeah.
[00:15:56] Jolene: but they didn't leave you any towels, [00:16:00] they forgot they were outta towels, whatever. So then you call down and you go, can I have some more towels?
[00:16:06] Please Do you tip that person when they come to the door and bring you towels?
[00:16:11] nicole: We don't, we tip at the end.
[00:16:12] Jolene: Okay. For housekeeping?
[00:16:16] nicole: Yeah. Do you In the interaction. Okay.
[00:16:20] Jolene: a great, this is a great question as well. we typically, if you're gonna stay, over two nights or over one night, so if you're staying more than one night,
[00:16:31] nicole: Okay.
[00:16:32] Jolene: we tip on the very first day, like the first time, you know, you've slept there and they come to clean your room that day because we feel like if you tip them,
[00:16:42] nicole: I see.
[00:16:43] Jolene: they'll give you a clean room. tip at the very end when you're not gonna reap any benefits from them seeing that tip, you
[00:16:53] nicole: Um,
[00:16:54] Jolene: the benefits and they'll go, I'm gonna give them two mints. I'm gonna leave them an extra bottle of water [00:17:00] because they gave me a nice tip. That's, see, that's
[00:17:02] nicole: um,
[00:17:03] Jolene: of
[00:17:03] nicole: uh, alright. Alright, alright. I don't know, I just thought, thought they usually clean your room and then we just like give them some love at the end.
[00:17:12] Jolene: end.
[00:17:13] nicole: We never really thought about it.
[00:17:14] Jolene: I, nothing wrong with that. I think it's nice to To do it. Okay. Delivery drivers 15 to 20%.
[00:17:20] nicole: I mean, yeah. And in New York you order a lot of food out, a lot of delivery and Yes. And that can be a point of contention too, because of sometimes a. There's one restaurant in particular, and I don't know if it's the restaurant or the delivery service, but they have, um, like hours have gone by and the food doesn't come.
[00:17:44] And, and then is that the delivery person's fault? Is that the who do, how do you, how, like, how do you reward good behavior and then say, Hey, you're taking advantage. So it, that's, but of course I feel like it goes [00:18:00] on that poor delivery person who is not getting paid minimum wage, who is relying on those, those tips.
[00:18:05] And like delivery people in New York, no joke, they're risking their lives every day speeding on those electric bikes, which, you know, I already don't like those things and try and they're expected to have to go fast and have that food warm and they're dodging traffic in millions of people in a city like it's, it's.
[00:18:28] Yeah, the, and generally if something goes wrong, they're the ones that get dinged. Not the restaurant. The restaurant is already charged what they're gonna charge. Right.
[00:18:37] Jolene: a good point.
[00:18:38] nicole: Yeah.
[00:18:39] Jolene: done Uber Eats.
[00:18:40] nicole: you live in the middle of nowhere. How, who's gonna deliver?
[00:18:44] Jolene: That is a great point. But even when we lived in areas, just, I,
[00:18:47] nicole: Oh yeah.
[00:18:48] Well you're a great cook and you know,
[00:18:51] Jolene: I would rather go and pick up the food
[00:18:54] nicole: I see,
[00:18:55] Jolene: than,
[00:18:57] nicole: I'm with you. I'm not a big takeout person or [00:19:00] delivery person. Um, I'd much rather go to the place or,
[00:19:05] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:19:06] nicole: yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:08] Jolene: no, two more movers. $20 to $50 per mover. which I think that's, that's probably right. I mean, I think it, it, is it a whole house? Is it just a one bedroom apartment? I mean,
[00:19:18] nicole: mean, I've, I've moved like 16 times or something like in New York and when I was really young and poor, like my friends and I would move, that would be different. But then once I had,
[00:19:29] Jolene: I,
[00:19:29] nicole: I was a big enough girl to hire movers. Yeah. And it's no joke in New York, like it is May juror, so there if, I mean now I have an elevator, but there have been many apartments that it's walk-ups and there's, they're crazy old tenement buildings that then it's super narrow and you're like, how the hell are these guys doing this?
[00:19:49] So yeah, I'm a big, big proponent and, and offering lots of water.
[00:19:55] Jolene: Buying 'em lunch if it's all day.
[00:19:57] nicole: Yes, exactly.
[00:19:58] Jolene: Uh, okay. Coffee [00:20:00] shops loved this. Coffee shops one to $2 or 10 to 15%. Didn't know that. I didn't know that You could do one to $2. So a coffee shop,
[00:20:10] nicole: See, I, yeah,
[00:20:12] Jolene: I mean like
[00:20:12] nicole: well, I, I,
[00:20:13] Jolene: order
[00:20:14] nicole: that because like a couple of places that I like to go, blue Bottle and this place called La Colo, they actually have on their point of sale, on their screen $1, $2 custom.
[00:20:25] Jolene: Oh,
[00:20:26] nicole: So it's not even like this big percentage of, and they're baristas, you know, they're making cappuccinos and all the things you want them to make fancy coffee.
[00:20:35] They're not just handing you a cup. But yeah, it's nice. I mean,
[00:20:39] Jolene: and 60 to 70% of Americans say tipping is out of control. Well,
[00:20:46] nicole: girl. Hell's Bells, as you would say. Yes. Listen, this is a, this is a, a topic that I think conservatives and liberals can get behind. 'cause it has gotten completely [00:21:00] out of control
[00:21:01] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:21:02] nicole: and I feel like the service has gotten worse. It's like gotten outta control. And then there's this like, I don't know, sense of entitlement.
[00:21:09] And also people are just not getting paid enough. So they really rely on those tips in a way that
[00:21:17] Jolene: So,
[00:21:17] nicole: like, stuff is just so expensive. It's not, it's not, they're not able to make a living wage.
[00:21:22] Jolene: But do you think that removing, tipping would. Reward bad behavior or bad service or make service worse.
[00:21:32] nicole: I don't know. I mean, I know that some, some servers and bartenders really like tipping 'cause they can, they can make way more money. There is that possibility.
[00:21:43] Jolene: isn't
[00:21:44] nicole: Um.
[00:21:45] Jolene: view of, I mean, okay, so if we look at this, I'm sorry that I interrupted you.
[00:21:51] nicole: That's okay.
[00:21:52] Jolene: Um, if we look at this, I kind of feel like this is kind of a Republican versus Democrat thing. Republicans [00:22:00] traditionally would say, The harder you work, the more money you make. And that you should be rewarded for working harder and um, and you get more money. Where I would say more of a Democrat view or even a socialist view is, nope, everybody makes the same. Put it all in a pot at the end of the night and divide it up.
[00:22:20] nicole: I mean, I don't, I don't feel that way. What I would, I can't speak for all liberals. I want people to be able to make a minimum wage and then get tips on top of it. Because I feel like if they have a minimum wage, like some days are slow, some days are not, but that at least that person is walking into work doing their job, hopefully doing it well with pride.
[00:22:44] Who knows? Sometimes you have a bad day, whatever, whatever. Sometimes you're a shitty worker and then you should be fired. Like I, like I am, I am all for rewarding good work, but I personally, and maybe this is a liberal thing, I would [00:23:00] like every worker to get minimum wage and then maybe it could shift the tip culture in terms of you walk in and you're like, well, I know you're making 15, $16 an hour, or whatever the, the minimum wage is for each state.
[00:23:15] And then, you know what? You were lovely today. I am gonna give you a couple bucks on top of that when you bought me or you gave me my coffee.
[00:23:23] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:23:24] nicole: and I think it allows the worker. To calm down too, to know, okay, at least I'm gonna make whatever
[00:23:32] Jolene: So
[00:23:32] nicole: dollars today.
[00:23:34] Jolene: to spend $50 for a, a cheeseburger at a restaurant then, because they're having, I mean, a, a sit down restaurant because you're gonna have to. You know, I think that's, that's probably the view that you have to look at this or the lens that you look at this through. So then if you are gonna pay
[00:23:54] nicole: When I, when I went, yeah.
[00:23:56] Jolene: the water guy, um, and the busboy [00:24:00] and um, the hostess and all that, if everybody's gonna make minimum wage, then
[00:24:04] nicole: Yeah.
[00:24:05] Jolene: of that restaurant is gonna have to charge $50 for a cheeseburger
[00:24:09] nicole: See, they're not because I've, I,
[00:24:11] Jolene: And
[00:24:12] nicole: okay, may,
[00:24:12] Jolene: but then that restaurant owner is gonna go outta business 'cause nobody's gonna come and pay 50. And then all those people are out of work.
[00:24:20] nicole: but why does it have to be so black and white?
[00:24:23] Jolene: Okay. Give me, give me what you think.
[00:24:26] nicole: Well, I mean, I have been to some non tipping restaurants and or that used to be non tipping restaurants. And yes, I mean, the hamburgers were not 50, but they were like 25. I've been to restaurants now that areti, they're,
[00:24:42] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:24:42] nicole: like, everything's so expensive. Like, like hamburgers are $25 and then you're supposed to tip
[00:24:47] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:24:48] nicole: 15 or 20 to 25%.
[00:24:50] So I guess that argument I have a hard time with because it's sort of like, well, people are outta business. And then to me it's sort of like, well, [00:25:00] don't open a restaurant. I mean, opening a restaurant is like, is one of the hardest things you could possibly do.
[00:25:07] Jolene: I would agree,
[00:25:08] nicole: and, and it's really hard to make money off of it.
[00:25:11] and I just believe, I don't know if this is a liberal thing. I don't believe that it is, because I think conservatives wanna be happy too. I think it would be nice. Right, right. So, so I just think having a happy staff is really important. it's just even like if we're on a sports team, if you're feeling like you're being respected, you are being taken care of, that you're gonna do a better job.
[00:25:37] I just don't think that we've really explored it because as long as you and I have been alive, 'cause from the, from the research that we have done, restaurants and tipping have gone hand in hand. We've never had a situation where like the standard is you pay your, maybe you have less staff, maybe you have a tinier restaurant.
[00:25:56] Like, I, I don't know, like, I, I, it's a [00:26:00] really, really hard job. Or hard business period. I guess I just don't like that corporations slash businesses, like they get away with kind of bad behavior because
[00:26:21] Jolene: Okay. But I would challenge you that it's not bad behavior. It's, it's economics. It's okay. This is the menu that we have. I'm, I'm, I'm thinking of our friends who had a Mexican restaurant when we lived in Texas
[00:26:34] they've got their, fixed costs are, you know, the rent of the building and the, um, the, the price of the, of their ingredients and, and all that. and they've gotta make a profit. So, and I'm not saying, and they were not rich by any means, and there were some
[00:26:51] nicole: Sure.
[00:26:51] Jolene: a profit and there were some months that they didn't make a profit, depending on, you know, how many people came and ate. But I'm telling you, if, if people have a choice and they [00:27:00] choose not to go to a more expensive restaurant, that they can get the same food.
[00:27:03] I mean, you know, I'm comparing a Mexican restaurant here.
[00:27:06] nicole: Yeah.
[00:27:06] Jolene: they can go to a different Mexican restaurant and get, relatively the same food, but it is cheaper because those employees, are counting on, on tips so that the employer doesn't have to come up with that, with their, um, their wage then. You're gonna have more people that go to that restaurant. Right. Because people don't, people don't think about when you go to a restaurant, you are looking at the prices on the menu. You are not looking at the end when you paid that. Yeah. But we had a couple of margaritas and we tipped and there was tax and all that.
[00:27:44] You don't, I I don't, I don't think you remember those things. You remember looking at the enchiladas were $12 or were the enchiladas 20.
[00:27:53] nicole: so let's, let's play with this a second because, when it comes to restaurants, I am not [00:28:00] so against the tipping because there is a possibility to make more money tipping. I do have a problem with where they put the thing in your, like the thing in your hand, and then they don't let you hold it.
[00:28:13] Like so many times I'm like, may I hold it so I can write like, like give me the fucking thing. Like, I wanna be able to write. but I do wonder, Because I know that minimum wage is different for every state. we could, you know, collaborate in a different way, repub Republicans and Democrats and say, okay, how about we raise the restaurant, depending as a percentage of that state's minimum wage like they did in 1966.
[00:28:44] So maybe it isn't the full minimum wage, but it's a little more than $2 and 13 cents an hour. Like maybe it's, there is some sort of rate adjustment to give the person a little bit more stability and not always [00:29:00] rely on the tip. Um, I also, without totally impacting a restaurant owner. Their bottom line.
[00:29:08] 'cause it's really hard to make money as, as a restaurant owner, period. if I were in Congress, that is something that I would want to take a look at because I don't think $2 and 13 cents seems bananas in 2026. Um, that's just me. but the tipping thing in general, as we've talked about, it's like, oh my gosh, this is what I wanna talk to you about Uber and Lyft.
[00:29:32] Jolene: yeah.
[00:29:32] nicole: and this has to also go into rating a little bit.
[00:29:35] Jolene: All
[00:29:35] nicole: So, so, so as it turns out, ratings started. Pretty much they're saying around 2004 when the, when Yelp was created,
[00:29:46] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:29:46] nicole: and then 2007, uh, Google Business took it on as well. But then I was reading something where they, they found, um, like in, in some like Greek archeology find, it was [00:30:00] like where someone had written about like bad service and dah, dah, dah, dah.
[00:30:04] And so that we as human beings have a proclivity to rate and sort of organize our brains. This is good, this is not good. Like we enjoy that. We enjoy that sort of comparison and giving our, giving our opinion to other people. Right. And so because of technology too, it has gotten so bananas. Um, and I'm guessing it's also just the programs that people use.
[00:30:33] For their businesses that, you know, someone looks at you and you get a text saying, how'd I do? And you're like, I don't even, you didn't do anything like five stars. Gimme five stars. And so when it comes to Uber and Lyft, and I don't know, I've, I've bitched about this before, like, oh, New York man, uh, I don't take Uber or Lyft or taxi unless I'm going to, and from the airport just, [00:31:00] for me, I find it to be an enormous waste of money and also an a lot of stress.
[00:31:04] And I like the subway. So, but when it comes to traveling, I feel like it's gotten to the point, it's gotten so bananas that lately I feel like I'm taking my life into my own hands. When I get in that car, they, people are driving like complete Mad men Mad men. and then you're supposed to tip the mad man and then you're supposed to rate them, which then you're like, well, if I rate you how I really feel, I'm a customer that's also being rated.
[00:31:37] Right? So how honest can you really be? Because what I wanna say is like, you, there are no star. I want no stars. Because you were bleep terrifying. I thought I was gonna die and you should never drive a Lyft again. But then I don't do that because I'm like,
[00:31:56] Jolene: you don't wanna be shamed
[00:31:58] into have given the [00:32:00] bad review. Okay. I will tell you, this happened to me in New York actually.
[00:32:04] nicole: we were
[00:32:05] Jolene: in a, an Uber, and it was an SUV.
[00:32:09] There were, I think there were four or five of us in this, in this car. And, the, the driver was so bad and I get car sick pretty easily.
[00:32:17] nicole: Yeah, I do too.
[00:32:18] Jolene: but he's doing the thing like he, and, and
[00:32:21] nicole: we're not in traffic. Like we're, I mean, he
[00:32:23] could have gone a, a steady pace, but he's going, on the gas. And, and so, and, and he's doing it so badly that I, I'm going it like, it is he listening to a song and he's like, tapping his foot to the beat of a song?
[00:32:40] Jolene: And I'm like, no, there's, I don't think there's any, I don't see headphones. And I, and I mean like, I was so ready to throw up that we got a couple of blocks from where we were going. And I, and I, I think I even said to him, I go, could you stop doing that, please? And he is like, doing what? And I go, like, accelerating and, and with your foot?
[00:32:57] And he was like, and, and he said, no. Or something, you [00:33:00] know, I mean, I, I, I, I don't know what he said. so we got a couple blocks away and I go, stop. Stop right now. We're getting out right here. And we got out because I couldn't, I thought, okay, but wait, I can't, I don't think that I can give him a bad review because
[00:33:15] nicole: Yes, Jolene. Yes. We had a situation and I can't remember, it was this past year or last year, and we got home super late. It was like one 30 in the morning or something. And there was no one on the road. And he was driving so fast that I finally screamed, you've gotta stop.
[00:33:40] 'cause Josh just gets real quiet and I am looking at him like we are going to die. And I'm like, and I am not dying quietly. Like I, and, and he's like, oh, oh, okay, sorry. You know, most customers want me to get there fast. I'm like, why? There's no [00:34:00] one on the road. You should never drive like this. Like, I was so, so incensed and, and my, and I talk about my nerves nervous system, but my nervous system was so rattled.
[00:34:10] I was like, what is this? And I got outta the car when we st when we got to our house or our apartment, and I took a picture of the license plate and I was all determined to report him. And then I didn't.
[00:34:28] Jolene: I know, I know. However, um, I am one of those people. I will tip more if you drove fast and you got me there quicker.
[00:34:37] nicole: Oh no, you would not have, you would not. This was like, oh, we're gonna flip over. Like, why are you driving so fast? It was crazy.
[00:34:45] Jolene: All
[00:34:45] nicole: It was crazy
[00:34:46] Jolene: I wouldn't, but
[00:34:47] nicole: because he also, they, he did that thing
[00:34:50] Jolene: uh, seriously, that makes me just wanna throw up talking about
[00:34:53] nicole: just talking about it. So we won't talk about it anymore, but yes. So
[00:34:57] Jolene: though.
[00:34:58] nicole: yes, let's talk about it.
[00:34:59] Jolene: the [00:35:00] thing with rating, we have gotten to the point and the fact that you said that it started with Yelp. gotten to the point where we don't trust ads anymore.
[00:35:09] Like with the, with the development of social media, we, we, as consumers, have some, some authenticity from knowing if a place is good or not. Because now we can look at ratings. Our, in fact, our girls will not go to a restaurant yet. Like, we'll, we'll go to a restaurant and they're immediately looking at the rating and going, nah, I don't think that's a good idea.
[00:35:34] It got
[00:35:34] nicole: Yeah. Jackson does the same thing.
[00:35:36] Jolene: I, that's such a
[00:35:37] nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:37] Jolene: that's a young
[00:35:38] nicole: It's a young thing. Yeah. There's an app called Belly that is really popular,
[00:35:43] Jolene: okay.
[00:35:44] nicole: that we're for restaurants where people will rate their, I was like, I have no interest in it. But there, I know these kids are like, they will not go unless they get an okay.
[00:35:54] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:35:55] nicole: Or more like a rave.
[00:35:57] Jolene: I kind of like that. I kind of
[00:35:59] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:59] Jolene: [00:36:00] authentic, like, I mean, you could look at the website and all the food looks fantastic,
[00:36:05] nicole: Oh, for sure.
[00:36:06] Jolene: then you get there and you're like, no, this isn't right. So I wanna see the real reviews. What did people really think of it, you know, that, that have no skin in the game. so I mean, that's how I think that rating has really, like, as, as a business owner, the better your ratings are, the more that people are gonna buy. I mean, that's
[00:36:24] nicole: Yeah,
[00:36:24] Jolene: line. So.
[00:36:25] nicole: but haven't you heard Jolene, that like some people are just sort of like unhappy revenge people and they write a horrible review and you're like,
[00:36:33] Jolene: what
[00:36:33] nicole: not what happened.
[00:36:35] Jolene: just happened to us.
[00:36:37] nicole: I bet it I I bet. 'cause you that's, I mean, it's your work. I would think that there'd be some.
[00:36:41] Jolene: so much that it was a review, but a lady said that she bought one of our products and that it was in the wrong box, and the product that she got had nuts in it. And we didn't have that warning on the, like it was the wrong product in the wrong box. And so I, you know, immediately went into panic mode [00:37:00] and went home.
[00:37:00] My gosh. That, that, how did that happen? And so we contacted, you know, our manufacturer, we go through all of our distributors, we go through everything, every, you know, she provided a lock code for us. And we're like, NN it wasn't possible like that physically was not possible that, that happened for a lot of different reasons. so there are people that are out there that, that
[00:37:24] nicole: Oh yeah.
[00:37:24] Jolene: free product or
[00:37:26] nicole: Yes.
[00:37:26] Jolene: they, you know, they think, and so my response always is, you know, thank you so much. I'm gonna send you some free product. We are a small family run business. And, because I want them to know they're not dealing with a multimillion dollar business that goes, oh my gosh, we're gonna get sued.
[00:37:41] Here's a thousand dollars for your trouble. But I
[00:37:44] nicole: right, right, right.
[00:37:44] Jolene: will do that intentionally,
[00:37:46] nicole: I think so too. I think so too. They're trying to get free stuff.
[00:37:49] Jolene: bad. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:51] nicole: Yeah. A lot of people are trying to work the system.
[00:37:54] Jolene: okay. So do you like the ratings then?
[00:37:56] nicole: Oh, I hate 'em. I hate them.
[00:37:59] Jolene: you
[00:37:59] nicole: mean,
[00:37:59] Jolene: 'em?
[00:38:00] nicole: no, I do. I'm a sucker. Like I'm, I'm, I mean, I'm part of, I'm part of the, like I'm part of the society and I absolutely do. I will look, I will look at like restaurants on Google and be like, well, this is a only a four three, shouldn't we go to a four seven? But then you realize you don't even know who these people are rating, and some of 'em are not gonna have the same taste as you.
[00:38:24] But yeah, I'm completely guilty of it. Where I, where I really hate it is like we, we have a broken HVAC here right now, and I'm bundled up because it's freezing, uh, upstairs. And, they went, came to work on it a couple of weeks ago and they said it was fixed. And then like as soon as the guy walks out the door, I get a text.
[00:38:51] How'd we do? And I just, there, I was like, he's great. Whatever, whatever. And then like three days later, it was broken [00:39:00] again. And so they, this particular company is just so ratings happy. Like I think it has to do with their program and like it, I'm sure it's completely automated. Like they press a button, the technician leaves and the text comes through. where I think it's also not okay, is when I. People, I think sometimes don't understand that like a position that you're in, that you're a small family business. And those ratings, those more reviews, I guess the stars matter, but the reviews, what you say, like take a deep breath
[00:39:36] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:39:36] nicole: because you could really impact someone's life because you were in a bad mood.
[00:39:41] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:39:42] nicole: you, or you something. It, it went, you know, it went wrong. And you know, maybe contact the person, the owner first. Versus just splaying it out to the world. And I definitely don't do that 'cause I'm like, [00:40:00] that's just bad mojo. Like really,
[00:40:03] Jolene: Yep. Yeah,
[00:40:04] nicole: you're just impacting it. And I, and guaranteed you write that business owner personally not broadcasting it and they're gonna do everything they can to remedy the situation.
[00:40:16] Right. But when you just become, sorry, Linda, a total fucking dick, and you just like pre put all your stuff like it again, it's that performance culture. I'm like, you're actually just trying to, uh, show how smart or,
[00:40:32] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:40:33] nicole: funny or rude or whatever you are. and that's not really serving anyone.
[00:40:38] It's not gonna serve you 'cause they're not gonna help you.
[00:40:40] Jolene: yep,
[00:40:41] nicole: a jerk.
[00:40:42] Jolene: A hundred percent.
[00:40:44] nicole: Listen, I've really, I'm really trying to not swear as much, but sometimes, sometimes it's fun.
[00:40:50] Jolene: Okay.
[00:40:51] nicole: everybody should try it every once in a while. It's a little bit of a release so do you find as a business owner, when [00:41:00] people do rate, like, is that, is it helpful?
[00:41:03] Jolene: Yes.
[00:41:04] nicole: Do you know if it's honest?
[00:41:06] Jolene: I was gonna say this too. So yes, I, it is helpful because I wanna hear the good and the bad. And if you didn't
[00:41:12] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:12] Jolene: you like it? And why, you know, what can we do to make it better? And, and
[00:41:16] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:16] Jolene: that, then I don't, I assume everybody thinks it's okay. So,
[00:41:21] nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:41:21] Jolene: important to, to have that honest feedback. but what I will say it are, there are a lot of companies out there that provide the service of giving you ratings and reviews. So I would just caution,
[00:41:37] nicole: that mean?
[00:41:38] Jolene: meaning I can pay a company to give me 50 good
[00:41:41] nicole: Oh, yes. Yes.
[00:41:44] Jolene: you know, um, five
[00:41:46] nicole: Ah, pay to play, baby.
[00:41:49] Jolene: And so now we're even getting then to the point where that's not authentic anymore.
[00:41:54] And
[00:41:54] nicole: Yeah.
[00:41:55] Jolene: you know, I, uh, that's a whole, that's a whole thing
[00:41:59] viewer, I [00:42:00] would love to hear your perspective. Um, I would love to hear what your experience has been and do you think, do you think we should do away with tipping altogether? Would you like to be a a, like the European countries and like Japan?
[00:42:14] It's an insult. I read like in Japan, it's an insult to receive a tip.
[00:42:20] nicole: you know, it's interesting 'cause they love, at least in Tokyo, they love western things, so it'll be interesting to see if that changes. but it is not part of their culture. No.
[00:42:34] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:42:34] nicole: Because they also pride themselves on very good service and they pay their workers and it's just a very different, it's a very different culture.
[00:42:44] but also listener and viewer. if you think that maybe we could even. Just do a percentage increase on the minimum wage in these tipping, what's the word I want, Jolene? I mean, yes, restaurants, but tipping industries. Um, would, [00:43:00] would, would you as a conservative be open to that? Is there something that we can start to wiggle about and it not just be, keep it at a $2 and 13 cents per hour situation
[00:43:13] Jolene: Definitely.
[00:43:14] nicole: of go with what's going on with inflation and all of that?
[00:43:17] I'm sure we'll be talking about this some more, but uh, we just wanted to get out there, get in front of it and talk about, 'cause it is something that I think both Jolene and I have a lot of crossover
[00:43:27] All right. Hit me with a good, with a would you rather please.
[00:43:30] Jolene: it is.
[00:43:36] nicole: Okay.
[00:43:37] Jolene: you rather go to a great restaurant where they display the amount you tipped on the big screen as you walk out the door, like I'm in, I'm envisioning it as you walk out the door. There's a big screen
[00:43:53] nicole: That's amazing.
[00:43:55] Jolene: tipped 18%.
[00:43:57] nicole: Uhhuh Uhhuh.
[00:43:58] Jolene: Um, [00:44:00] or,
[00:44:01] nicole: Uhhuh.
[00:44:01] Jolene: uh, go to a restaurant where there's no tipping allowed.
[00:44:06] nicole: My God. I would go to a restaurant where there's no tipping allowed. I don't care how expensive it is.
[00:44:10] Jolene: No,
[00:44:11] nicole: is mortifying.
[00:44:12] Jolene: The the, the people only make like six bucks an hour.
[00:44:17] nicole: Oh. So I know like I'm going to a place where I'm like ripping everyone off.
[00:44:23] Okay, fine. I am choosing where they blast my tipping. 'cause I'm going to tip well. 'cause I do tip. Well,
[00:44:29] Jolene: And Anne, I would wanna be a server at that restaurant because, I mean, obviously you're gonna be completely obligated to
[00:44:39] nicole: know what's shocking is that that hasn't happened.
[00:44:42] Jolene: know.
[00:44:43] nicole: from this episode one restaurant would be like, that's a great idea. Let's do it. Let's shame everyone. Woo hoo.
[00:44:51] Jolene: I think that would be great. Yeah.
[00:44:53] nicole: Amazing. Alright, you ready?
[00:44:57] Jolene: Yes.
[00:44:58] nicole: Okay. [00:45:00] Would you rather find a $100 bill floating in a public toilet or a $20 bill in your own pocket?
[00:45:14] Jolene: Oh God, that's a really good one. oh. How desperate are you for that? A hundred
[00:45:21] nicole: I know, I know, I know. And I'm not suggesting, I'm not suggesting that there are, there is other things in that toilet.
[00:45:30] Jolene: Like it's clear water.
[00:45:32] nicole: That's what I was thinking. 'cause I don't even need to go. That's just gross. I don't need to do that to you. And obviously it depends on a person's circumstances for sure. But some people really just struggle with public toilets in general.
[00:45:47] Jolene: Hmm. Which I kind of do. It just depends on where it is. And, um,
[00:45:52] nicole: Gosh, I have such a memory, Jolene, of being six years old, visiting my grandmother in Dallas. And we went, she took us [00:46:00] to the Dallas Zoo and I went into the toilet. I'll never forget it. And she just screamed. She scared the shit out of me. She goes, don't sit down. And I was like, what? What? She's like, don't sit down on the toilet.
[00:46:13] And every time I go into a public restaurant, I think of my grandmother screaming at screaming at me. Don't sit down. And I'm like, what's gonna happen?
[00:46:24] Jolene: build
[00:46:25] nicole: And when you're six years old, you're not very tall.
[00:46:27] Jolene: I was gonna, I was actually picturing that as a
[00:46:30] nicole: Listen, I'm not, I'm not that much taller, but I'm taller than the 6-year-old and it's still tough sometimes.
[00:46:37] Jolene: Oh, that is funny. Um, okay, I'm, I'm gonna go with a hundred dollars bill because
[00:46:41] nicole: Okay.
[00:46:42] Jolene: um, toilet paper and I'm gonna bob for the, like, if it's floating on tops, you're not digging in, it's floating on tops. So I'm gonna take toilet paper and get
[00:46:52] nicole: Okay.
[00:46:53] Jolene: and put it on like some other toilet paper and wrap it up and then go somewhere the nearest [00:47:00] place and either spend it, like get a pack of gum so I get the rest of the money back, but I'll get rid of it right away.
[00:47:09] nicole: Are you gonna tell that person you found it in the toilet?
[00:47:13] Jolene: no.
[00:47:14] nicole: Dude,
[00:47:14] Jolene: No.
[00:47:15] nicole: you could be like spreading some disease. That's hilarious. I never, there you go. You're hilarious when you said Bob for it. I was like, Bob for it. You don't put your hand, don't put your face in there.
[00:47:33] Jolene: You have to get it with your mouth.
[00:47:35] nicole: I didn't say that. Oh my gosh. Okay. Jolene, uh, thank you very much for this.
[00:47:43] Thank you for the laugh today and the like mental gymnastics that we have every week. I'm really grateful for you and listener and viewer. Thank you so much for, listening and watching and contributing. You can always, [00:48:00] always reach out to us. You can comment on YouTube. You can reach out to our website like Jolene said about being a sponsor, and go to our contact page and write to us at, we've got to talk.com.
[00:48:09] Jolene: you can rate us
[00:48:10] nicole: Oh, Lord. Yes, you can. You can rate us
[00:48:13] Jolene: review us.
[00:48:14] nicole: and Apple and all the things. Yes, you can.
[00:48:17] Jolene: said, you can't, you
[00:48:18] nicole: Yes.
[00:48:19] Jolene: we actually want you to do to us?
[00:48:23] nicole: We definitely want you to subscribe. That is something we want you to do,
[00:48:27] Jolene: Please
[00:48:27] nicole: uh, that is very helpful to our algorithms and to, and, and like Jolene said, at the top of the show, please share with a friend. Um, this is how we keep this going forward and keep, uh, learning from each other and talking to each other in a very respectful and curious way.
[00:48:46] Goodbye. Thank you.
[00:48:48]
