“Bashing Trump” vs “Sanewashing Trump”: An Interview with Issac Saul of Tangle News
I keep thinking about an email Isaac Saul wrote to the readers of the Tangle newsletter.
Conservative readers are unsubscribing because Tangle is “unfairly bashing Trump.” Liberal readers are unsubscribing because Tangle is “sanewashing Trump.” And this is in response to the same newsletters. The same words are being viewed as too far left or too far right, depending on who is reading them.
As Issac put it in his email plea for help to the Tangle readers, “Simply put: The division, fractured realities, and distrust are now manifesting as a significant business challenge.”
We read it and immediately thought, oh. That’s us too.
Because we’re doing a different thing, but we’re standing in the same crossfire. We’re holding up a mirror and saying, here are the facts, here are the arguments, here’s what we think, and we trust you to have a brain. And people don’t want to question their own thoughts, they mostly just like being told they’re right. They like being told the other side is the problem.
And when you don’t do that, when you refuse to pick a team and stay there forever, you become suspicious to everyone.
Isaac’s whole point is that we are living in a political environment that has very little grace left in it. He started writing Tangle in 2019, before COVID, before everything got dialled up to eleven, and he’s been a politics reporter since 2013. He’s not new to this. He’s not naive. And even he’s saying, the heat now is different.
Part of that, he says, is Trump himself. Trump thrives on political clash. He summons it. He enjoys it. It’s part of what made him powerful in 2016. But there’s an inherent divisiveness to that style, and when he’s back in office, it’s like the temperature in the room just rises without anyone touching the thermostat.
And then you’ve got Democrats who, after Biden won, thought they’d vanquished the movement and wouldn’t have to deal with it anymore. They didn’t bridge the gap that produced Trump in the first place. They didn’t try to understand it. So when Trump came back, it wasn’t just a comeback. It was a vengeance sequel. And now both sides feel like all goodwill has been burned, so the only option is to fight fire with fire.
Which leaves everyone else stuck in the middle of this rage-inducing war, trying to figure out how to live. How to vote. How to talk to family members. How to consume news without losing your soul.
And then there’s the media, sitting right in the middle of it, with its own incentives.
Jolene asked him straight out: "Is outrage the most profitable product in the media right now?”
And Isaac’s answer was basically: the most profitable product is picking a side and feeding that side what it wants, over and over again, regardless of what’s actually happening.
He did make an important distinction. There are still big, successful institutions that don’t run purely on outrage. He mentioned the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Financial Times. They have subscription businesses, strong editors, journalists everywhere, and a mix of ideology in their teams. So no, outrage isn’t the only way.
But if you look at the endless influencer ecosystem, the YouTube channels, the “independent creators” who are basically just shilling for the Reds or the Blues, they do well because their audience is well-defined. They know what their people want to hear, and they deliver it like a drug.
And people pay for it.
This means the business model rewards certainty, not curiosity. It rewards loyalty, not honesty. It rewards the kind of content that makes you feel like you’re part of a tribe, even if it’s making you a worse person.
I brought up something we’ve been talking about a lot lately, which is the toxicity in comment sections and the way we treat each other like we’ve forgotten there’s a human behind the screen. I referenced Isaac’s interview with David French, and the idea that it’s the extreme wings that are the loudest, while the exhausted middle is just… exhausted. They don’t stand up. They don’t comment. They don’t fight. They just quietly step back from the whole mess.
And that’s part of what makes this feel so hopeless sometimes. Because you can’t tell if the reasonable people are gone, or if they’re just hiding.
Isaac said something that feels almost radical now: it’s okay to change your mind. It’s okay to say you were wrong. It’s okay to admit you don’t know enough yet.
He also said something that made me feel weirdly seen: people feel unheard, or if they are being heard, they feel misunderstood. And even if you do the work, even if you study, even if you spend years learning about something, there’s almost no level of understanding that will insulate you from criticism. You can spend five minutes reading about Iran, or you can study Iranian-US politics for years, and if you post a comment on Facebook, someone is still going to tell you you’re wrong or a terrible person.
Then Jolene asked the question we’ve all asked: did COVID do this to us? Was it Trump plus isolation plus social media becoming our only community, all at once?
Isaac’s take was that it was already in motion before COVID. COVID accelerated the isolation, the doomscrolling, the news obsession. But he remembers leaving for college in 2008, coming home in 2012, and noticing the difference in how people who disagreed politically shared space. Even during Obama’s first term, the rhetoric was getting more inflammatory. Fox News was pushing new levels of outrage. Liberals felt emboldened and cocky, convinced Democrats would win forever. And that arrogance, combined with the rise of a more aggressive right-wing media ecosystem, collided.
Then 2016 happened, and it was like the perfect storm. Trump and Hillary as personifications of the worst instincts on both sides. And Trump’s behavior gave people permission to say the quiet part out loud. To be cruel and to be rewarded for it.
One of the most fascinating parts of this conversation was when Isaac talked about language. He said one of the biggest revelations in building Tangle was how much people read political bias into tiny word choices.
He gave examples. Use the phrase “undocumented immigrant” and conservatives assume you’re a left-leaning organization. Use “marijuana” and progressives accuse you of using a racist colonial term. People were unsubscribing based on a single word in the intro, before they even got to the arguments.
So his team created their own editorial standards, trying to find language that doesn’t dehumanize and doesn’t obscure reality. They landed on terms like “unauthorized migrant” or “immigrants here illegally” instead of “illegal alien” or “undocumented immigrant.” And when they did that, complaints dropped. People actually stayed long enough to read the arguments.
That’s such a small thing, and it’s such a huge thing.
Because it shows how primed we are to look for cues. How quickly we decide whether someone is “one of us” or “one of them.” How little patience we have for anything that doesn’t immediately confirm what we already believe.
And Isaac said something that feels like the only way to survive doing this work: he has a north star. He’s honest with his audience about what he’s feeling. He tells them what he thinks. He tries to articulate it in a way his opponents can hear, but he doesn’t obscure his views. Partly because it’s exhausting to keep track of lies, and partly because integrity is the whole point.
Which brings us to the question we all want answered: is this as bad as it’s going to get?
Isaac said there are real things he worries about, especially AI. AI video, AI audio, mass dissemination of fake content. The antidote to fear-based politics is slowing down and thinking rationally, and he worries people are outsourcing that thinking to AI, which makes it easier to access their fears and base instincts.
But he also said something hopeful. He thinks we’ve scraped the bottom of indecency. He talks to normal Americans across the spectrum, and they’re exhausted. They hate how intense it is. They hate how cruel it is. They want to step out. And he thinks that creates an opening for a political figure who embodies decency and turns the temperature down.
Fingers crossed, he said. And we feel the same way.
But I also think it’s worth saying that decency doesn’t just “come back” because a politician shows up and saves us. It comes back because regular people start rewarding it again. In our comments. In our group chats. At dinner with family. In the way we talk about people we disagree with when they’re not in the room.
The world we’re in right now is built on incentives. Outrage gets clicks. Certainty gets applause. Cruelty gets rewarded.
So if we want something different, we have to start clapping for different things.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
This American Life Tangle Episode:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/845/a-small-thing?ref=readtangle.com
Issac Saul with David French:
https://youtu.be/fxAKXuvMXcw?si=FpOYfAVa2IdIMkaA
Issac Saul TED Talk:
https://youtu.be/543mYKKh1EE?si=-wUgGLuSZ1LK5ygI
GOOD FOR THE SOUL:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/45031831-one-long-river-of-song
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[00:00:00] Nicole: She's conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money. And we say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud.
[00:00:19] Welcome to, we've got to Talk. Welcome Jolene and welcome Isaac. Saul.
[00:00:26] Jolene: We are so excited to have Isaac Saul here. He is the executive editor and founder of Tangle. Tangle is an independent, non-partisan subscriber supported politics newsletter and podcast that summarizes the best arguments from across the political spectrum On the news of the day in 2024, tangle won a SHORTY Award in the news and media category, and Isaac Saul has also won many national championships as a former competitive ultimate Frisbee player.
[00:00:55] Nicole: Welcome, Isaac. We're
[00:00:57] Jolene: excited to have you here.
[00:00:58] Isaac: Thank you guys for having [00:01:00] me. I'm glad to be here.
[00:01:01] Nicole: we're gonna not talk about the ultimate Frisbee, although we have so many questions.
[00:01:06] Isaac: that
[00:01:06] Nicole: Uhhuh,
[00:01:07] Isaac: it. Yeah.
[00:01:07] Nicole: you're welcome. So, um, to give our audience some backstory. On February 10th, Isaac, you wrote an article or an email called a Plea for help went to Jolene, who I'm a subscriber and she is not a subscriber, not to out Jolene.
[00:01:25] Jolene: A pay a paid
[00:01:26] Nicole: you, yes.
[00:01:27] Jolene: a
[00:01:27] Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. I'm just gonna quote you. It says, you have never experienced an environment like the one we are living in today. Conservative readers unsubscribe over unfairly bashing President Trump. And on the same days, liberal readers say they're leaving because they are sane washing.
[00:01:48] Trump unquote, which I love that term by the way. and so we were realizing that we, we've got to talk, we're having very similar issues, [00:02:00] and we reached out and said, can we have this conversation about that email and what brought you to that place in your five year journey of tangle?
[00:02:10] Isaac: Yeah, sure. Um, and it's been almost seven
[00:02:13] Nicole: Oh, I'm sorry.
[00:02:14] Isaac: to think. No, it's okay. I mean, just I as a point of emphasis about how wild the times are we're in now. I mean, I started writing tangle in, uh, summer of 2019, so before COVID,
[00:02:28] Nicole: Right.
[00:02:28] Isaac: remember those days. And just as the Democratic primary was kind of ramping up before the 2020 election. you know, I've been in the arena as a politics reporter since I graduated college, which was 2013. I'm 34 years old now, and, um. just don't know that we have really felt the kind of heat in the last 10 or 20 years like we have right now. I think part of that is because the president himself is somebody who clearly [00:03:00] enjoys and kind of summons the political clash.
[00:03:03] I mean, he thrives in that environment. It's part of why he won in 2016, I think, is that. He brought sort of a new ethos to the political battlegrounds that nobody had really figured out how to wrangle, and it made him a tremendously powerful and compelling politician.
[00:03:20] Nicole: but there's.
[00:03:21] Isaac: an inherent divisiveness to how he approaches politics that I think is pretty much indisputable.
[00:03:26] When he wins, it works, but when he divides, it sort of just turns the temperature up. and you know, the left, I think for a long time. J in the early days of Trump were kind of on their heels. I think
[00:03:38] Nicole: After Biden.
[00:03:39] Isaac: won in 2021, they felt like they had sort of vanquished this movement that they wouldn't have to deal with anymore. And then they spent the years during the Biden administration, I think not really attempting to or effectively bridging the gap that existed, that sort of produced Trump. In the first term. And so when [00:04:00] Trump came back, it was kind of the vengeance sequel that everybody was worried about, and now he's in office and I think both sides feel like all goodwill has been burned. Democrats in a lot of ways are deciding that they just need to fight this fire with fire. the result is that there's sort of a public who has a binary choice about who they're gonna support or pick in most elections, and they're kind of stuck in the middle of this, you know, rage inducing war and have to sort of pick sides and
[00:04:32] Nicole: Figure out
[00:04:33] Isaac: how they're gonna approach their news consumption, their votes, uh, their
[00:04:37] Nicole: relationships with family.
[00:04:38] Isaac: that don't share their politics. All these really big questions. And we as a news organization are kind of in the middle of that battleground. So, I've just seen over the last few years, especially. There's way less grace and patience and open-mindedness than I've experienced at any time publishing t and it's
[00:04:58] Nicole: starting to [00:05:00] result.
[00:05:00] Isaac: business ramifications where we're seeing that, you know, our subscribers, longtime readers on both sides of the aisle. Just seem to have less patience for consuming a piece of opinion that they don't like, and that's a really big challenge when you have a whole business model built on.
[00:05:16] Kind of getting people outside their political bubbles makes things hard.
[00:05:21] Jolene: so is is outrage the most profitable, profitable product in media right now?
[00:05:27] Isaac: I mean, I think the, the most profitable product in media right now is, is picking a side and. to that side, regardless of what's happening in the news. I think the, the people who are, who are succeeding, and, and I, I would, I would carve out some exceptions to this. You know, I, I
[00:05:46] Nicole: I actually.
[00:05:46] Isaac: think the New York Times is doing that.
[00:05:48] I don't think the Wall Street Journal is doing that. Um, financial Times I don't think is doing. These are news organizations that are incredibly successful. They have huge subscription businesses, [00:06:00] journalists all over the world. They're paying the best salaries. They have a lot of the best editors,
[00:06:04] Nicole: And by the way, they have a really ideolog
[00:06:07] Isaac: diverse makeup. I mean, the Financial Times is pretty centrist. The New York Times leans left. The Wall Street Journal leans right? I think
[00:06:15] Nicole: Both
[00:06:15] Isaac: on the
[00:06:16] Nicole: editorial,
[00:06:17] Isaac: and in the in the newsrooms, which are different things, but
[00:06:21] Nicole: they managed to,
[00:06:22] Isaac: build really successful media businesses. So I
[00:06:26] Nicole: don't think it's,
[00:06:26] Isaac: only way to go about it,
[00:06:28] Nicole: but.
[00:06:29] Isaac: if you look at. News. If you look at M-S-N-B-C, if you look at, uh, the, I mean uncountable number of influencers, quote unquote,
[00:06:40] Nicole: Twitter.
[00:06:41] Isaac: and YouTube channels, and all these places that are popping up that are these kind of like indie creators who are basically just shilling for either the Reds or the blues. They do really well because their audience is well defined. They know what their audience is gonna like and they can give them what they like over and over [00:07:00] again, and people tend to pay for that sort of thing, um,
[00:07:03] Nicole: Which is scary, but
[00:07:05] Isaac: it's sort of one of the perverse incentives of being in the media business.
[00:07:09] Jolene: speaking of the times we watched your, your interview with, um, David French, which we both
[00:07:14] Nicole: loved.
[00:07:15] Jolene: I mean, I, it was, he just, he talked about, you know, being in the Times and, you know, you asked him about that, you know, and he was like, yeah, but I get to do my own thing.
[00:07:24] So
[00:07:25] Nicole: It's refreshing to hear.
[00:07:26] Jolene: right?
[00:07:26] Nicole: But he also commented Isaac about like how, and we're experiencing this on our socials and I assuming, 'cause I listen to you every day, that you eventually put up a paywall. Because in the comment section, about the amount of toxicity and the way we treat each other, we've sort of forgotten the humanity behind it.
[00:07:49] And one thing that I loved in the David French interview was how he talked about when he had written about James Teleco and people. Freaked out that he was [00:08:00] like saying anything nice about this man, basically, and how he was saying that it's really the extreme wings that are the loudest and that the exhausted middle were just exhausted.
[00:08:14] We don't usually stand up and say anything. And, and speaking with like my friends and Jolene's friends, you know, they, they're like, God, I wanna like Jolene, but I just can't stand what she says. Oh, I really like, wanna like Nicole, but I just can't take her. And you're thinking, you know, we think about this all the time and I'm very curious to, 'cause I know we're doing a, obviously a different thing, but sort of a similar thing where we're holding up a mirror saying, okay, this is the topic of the day and we're going for you.
[00:08:52] I'm guessing it's, we are giving you this information and we trust your brain to be able to. [00:09:00] Make your own decisions, I'm not gonna tell you to make your own decisions. And then when Jolene and I go in, we do it. Obviously we're not journalists, but it's like we're gonna hold up some facts in a mirror and, and people don't wanna be wrong.
[00:09:13] It sucks being wrong, it's vulnerable being wrong, and so we find that they just lash out in the comments because it's just too much to take.
[00:09:23] Isaac: broadly speaking, something that we're trying to model at Tan is just this idea that it's, it's okay to change your mind. It's okay to say you are wrong about something. It's okay to. Say, I
[00:09:35] Nicole: I
[00:09:35] Isaac: know how I feel about this particular issue. I
[00:09:38] Nicole: think.
[00:09:38] Isaac: thing that that's really common in today's political dynamic is people get forced into taking positions on stuff that they don't really have the time to understand
[00:09:48] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:48] Isaac: you know, they feel the social pressure online or from their family or friends or from their school or their work or whatever, to align themselves on a particular issue. Things ranging [00:10:00] from a war in Gaza to, you know, race admissions at Harvard. Like these huge, big topics that are like, have nothing to do with each other, um, based off of a very limited understanding that they might have. And then when they, you know, align themselves publicly or they take a particular position. They get hammered for it by half their friends and family or half the country
[00:10:24] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:25] Isaac: It's a
[00:10:25] Nicole: a really difficult,
[00:10:27] Isaac: to be. So, you know, I
[00:10:28] Nicole: I try and have a lot of
[00:10:30] Isaac: for sure with our audience about
[00:10:32] Nicole: the way,
[00:10:33] Isaac: might approach me or how they might act in the comments or
[00:10:36] Nicole: but,
[00:10:36] Isaac: else.
[00:10:36] But,
[00:10:37] I, I
[00:10:38] Nicole: I think there's a sense lot
[00:10:40] Isaac: of people
[00:10:41] Nicole: that
[00:10:42] Isaac: they are
[00:10:43] Nicole: not.
[00:10:43] Isaac: heard, or if they are being heard, they're being misunderstood.
[00:10:48] Nicole: Or
[00:10:48] Isaac: Or
[00:10:48] Nicole: if
[00:10:49] Isaac: try and take a position on a topic that there's, there's almost no level of understanding that they can have about an issue that's gonna insulate them [00:11:00] from criticism.
[00:11:01] So it's like,
[00:11:02] Nicole: it doesn't matter.
[00:11:03] Isaac: they spend five minutes reading about the war in Iran, or they went to school to study Iranian US politics.
[00:11:10] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:11:10] Isaac: Like if they stake out a position on it publicly, in a comment section on Facebook, on Instagram as a
[00:11:17] Nicole: A writer or whatever, there's gonna be this subset of people
[00:11:21] Isaac: who hate the
[00:11:22] Nicole: position. Mm-hmm.
[00:11:23] Isaac: And a
[00:11:23] Nicole: a lot of people are comfortable with that relationship with.
[00:11:26] Isaac: forced to participate in it, or they participate in it and they feel the negative ramifications of that immediately. And I have a lot of sympathy for that. I mean, I, um. It's hard. I, for me, I have a hard time being a writer
[00:11:39] Nicole: And
[00:11:40] Isaac: having my views shared publicly and talking publicly about my politics every day.
[00:11:44] There are days when it's really emotionally taxing. I've been doing it for long enough that I think I've gotten better at. Sort of insulating
[00:11:52] Nicole: myself,
[00:11:52] Isaac: some of the criticism and navigating it and leaving some of it at home when I go to or at work, when I come home or whatever.
[00:11:59] [00:12:00] but
[00:12:00] Nicole: it really
[00:12:00] Isaac: not
[00:12:01] Nicole: hard.
[00:12:02] Isaac: or it's really not easy to do, and it's it easy. fall into the trap of like obsessing over the criticism and trying to respond to everybody's feedback and whatever. And,
[00:12:11] Nicole: The whole environment is just very
[00:12:13] Isaac: icky sometimes. And I think if you're just a
[00:12:16] Nicole: a normal person,
[00:12:17] Isaac: trying to be a
[00:12:18] Nicole: citizen.
[00:12:19] Isaac: you get swept up in that quicker than you might want to.
[00:12:24] Nicole: Okay.
[00:12:24] Jolene: So do you think this all came about, mean, we've talked about before that maybe it was this perfect storm of. Trump gets elected, and then we're in the middle of COVID, and so we've got this isolationism and then everybody, the only community people have is on social media. So they've started, you know,
[00:12:40] Nicole: Communicating on social media.
[00:12:42] Jolene: and like people wanted to be heard, like, did we feel like this would've happened if it wasn't for COVID?
[00:12:48] I mean,
[00:12:49] Nicole: Know this
[00:12:49] Jolene: just all
[00:12:50] Nicole: happen at.
[00:12:51] Jolene: the same time? What are your thoughts on that?
[00:12:52] Isaac: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I, I, my personal view is that I think this was well in [00:13:00] the works before COVID hit. I definitely think the pandemic had a big impact on the social isolation part and the kind of news obsession and like the dooms scrolling. I think that all was really accelerated in COVID,
[00:13:14] Nicole: But
[00:13:15] Isaac: I
[00:13:15] Nicole: I mean, I, I remember vividly
[00:13:17] Isaac: Leaving
[00:13:18] Nicole: home for college
[00:13:20] Isaac: in 2008. so at the very beginning of
[00:13:23] Nicole: Obama's first. Mm-hmm.
[00:13:25] Isaac: and
[00:13:26] Nicole: coming home after I graduated
[00:13:28] Isaac: living with
[00:13:29] Nicole: my mom for like six months before I got my first job
[00:13:31] Isaac: in 2012.
[00:13:35] Nicole: And the difference between
[00:13:37] Isaac: how, or in 2013, I guess, would've been the difference
[00:13:40] Nicole: how,
[00:13:41] Isaac: my friends back home and family members back home who disagreed politically were able to share space. Even in that time period was noticeable like the
[00:13:50] Nicole: The middle of
[00:13:51] Isaac: of
[00:13:51] Nicole: Obama's first,
[00:13:52] Isaac: term and the end of Obama's first term.
[00:13:55] Nicole: was
[00:13:55] Isaac: really, tense. Like the stuff Fox News was doing was really gross. We had like the [00:14:00] tan suit, multi-day scandal, whatever the terrorist fist bump. I mean, there was all sorts of stuff that was just like this
[00:14:07] Nicole: of inflammatory.
[00:14:09] Isaac: rhetoric we hadn't really heard. And at the same time, liberals were really.
[00:14:13] Nicole: Empowered
[00:14:14] Isaac: and felt really in
[00:14:15] Nicole: control. Oh,
[00:14:16] Isaac: like,
[00:14:16] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:14:16] Isaac: know,
[00:14:17] Nicole: back then
[00:14:18] Isaac: Obama
[00:14:18] Nicole: had resha.
[00:14:19] Isaac: the whole electorate and
[00:14:20] Nicole: Democrats weren't gonna
[00:14:21] Isaac: an
[00:14:21] Nicole: election
[00:14:21] Isaac: 20
[00:14:22] Nicole: years.
[00:14:22] Isaac: years like
[00:14:22] Nicole: Everybody
[00:14:23] Isaac: we were about to have four successive democratic presidents, and Obama had rewritten the whole script. And so they were very emboldened. Democrats were very emboldened, felt
[00:14:31] Nicole: very cocky about,
[00:14:32] Isaac: they were politically.
[00:14:34] Nicole: and that was sort of what.
[00:14:35] Isaac: the like working class kind of Trump. Like politically disaffected, turning Republican electorate that rose up and fought back
[00:14:45] Nicole: Against
[00:14:46] Isaac: the sort of Obama years and his failed promises and whatever else.
[00:14:50] so
[00:14:50] Nicole: I think
[00:14:51] Isaac: pre COVID this
[00:14:52] Nicole: sort of undercurrent.
[00:14:53] Isaac: of. The right wing media ecosystem was starting to do things that were really, really inflammatory [00:15:00] and really like over the top, they were, they were just like treading new water. And Democrats were like extremely arrogant about their future political prospects and very dismissive about concerns from like fly over country and working class Americans and just
[00:15:16] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:15:16] Isaac: give a
[00:15:16] Nicole: Shit about,
[00:15:17] Isaac: honestly.
[00:15:18] Nicole: and like those.
[00:15:19] Isaac: two things ran into each other. And then we had the 2016 election that was this sort of Trump Hillary matchup where all, I think like the chickens came home, the roost for Democrats and Trump basically got dealt like a royal flush in terms of the political, I mean, you know, he won the election by like a combined 40,000 votes in three states that he had to have,
[00:15:42] Nicole: And you know.
[00:15:42] Isaac: we've been living in that world since, and I think COVID just gave people an excuse to dial into the news more and pay more attention, which not sure was a good thing or not. I mean, I like civic participation, but clearly the that's come from that time period, the post pandemic [00:16:00] era, has been really, really tough.
[00:16:01] Nicole: I've never thought of it this way, but sort of this built up years of arrogance on the left, and sorry, Hillary, like she sort of was the personification of that and then the exaggeration and inflammatory. Trump was sort of the personification of that. What, what the way you're saying like in 2016, it's like the, these were, this is where we were, they were sort of the perfect models of what, what the left was doing and what the right was doing.
[00:16:28] And here we go. And I think that Trump also, the way he behaved, gave people permission. Oh, I can say this horrible shit outside of my brain. And I'm gonna be congratulated for it or rewarded for it. I think that behavior maybe brought us to where we are as well. I mean, I think of like about language and we both watched your TED talk about how important words are and how the left and the right use [00:17:00] words in different ways.
[00:17:01] Can you talk about that a little bit?
[00:17:04] Isaac: Yeah, sure. I mean, so something that I noticed in doing this work that, kind of revelatory for me honestly, was. We were, you know, our, the whole structure of tangle, I mean this is relevant for your audience, is that, you know, we introduced this main topic in our newsletter every day, and then we summarize the best arguments we can find from the left and summarize the best arguments we can find from the right.
[00:17:25] And then we publish our own original editorial. It, it used to just be me writing the, my take, but now I have a team and staff writers and other people kind of pen their own opinion sometimes.
[00:17:36] Nicole: So
[00:17:37] Isaac: The
[00:17:37] Nicole: the.
[00:17:38] Isaac: is to get people to the arguments, right? We want people to read what the left saying and what the right's saying, and then our argument. that way when they're finished the newsletter, they have this really holistic view at what's happening in the media space, what the different arguments are about this, you know, policy issue that we're debating whatever it is.
[00:17:58] Nicole: And what I was,
[00:17:59] Isaac: [00:18:00] was people were writing in pissed off and unsubscribing or canceling their subscription or whatever for something that was written in the introductory of the newsletter.
[00:18:10] Nicole: oh,
[00:18:10] Isaac: were explaining the story. So they would see something like us using the term undocumented immigrants, which is the example I used in the
[00:18:21] Nicole: mm-hmm.
[00:18:21] Isaac: one of the examples I used in the
[00:18:22] Nicole: Ted.
[00:18:23] Isaac: And they would think, okay, this is a liberal left leaning bias news
[00:18:28] Nicole: Organization
[00:18:29] Isaac: and I'm gonna stop reading right now. Or,
[00:18:32] Nicole: um,
[00:18:32] Isaac: you
[00:18:32] Nicole: you know, they would write in about us calling, uh,
[00:18:35] Isaac: uh. Cannabis marijuana and
[00:18:38] Nicole: say like
[00:18:38] Isaac: marijuana is like a
[00:18:40] Nicole: racist,
[00:18:40] Isaac: colonial
[00:18:41] Nicole: white term,
[00:18:42] Isaac: whatever. Um, like very progressive readers, like, they would
[00:18:44] Nicole: that
[00:18:45] Isaac: in the description and be
[00:18:46] Nicole: like
[00:18:46] Isaac: you guys should update
[00:18:47] Nicole: you guys.
[00:18:48] Isaac: Or like, I'm not gonna read this, whatever. And, it, it was a, a revelation for me that like these little language choices that we think
[00:18:56] Nicole: About,
[00:18:57] Isaac: I
[00:18:57] Nicole: didn't
[00:18:57] Isaac: ever
[00:18:58] Nicole: like Central.
[00:18:59] Isaac: as being [00:19:00] so important. We're sending off all these cues to our audience,
[00:19:03] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:04] Isaac: were way savvier. Then maybe I would've assumed in terms of how they're looking for. The different cues about whether someone's political bias is left or right or whatever.
[00:19:16] Nicole: So I.
[00:19:17] Isaac: my team to start thinking about ways to neutralize this problem by
[00:19:21] Nicole: Up
[00:19:21] Isaac: up with our
[00:19:21] Nicole: own editorial standard,
[00:19:23] Isaac: independent of
[00:19:24] Nicole: of what you know,
[00:19:25] Isaac: or
[00:19:25] Nicole: Chicago style person
[00:19:27] Isaac: which is like the places that a
[00:19:28] Nicole: a lot.
[00:19:29] Isaac: newsrooms go to.
[00:19:31] Nicole: and just like what,
[00:19:33] Isaac: can we do that's sort of a middle ground on some of these really contested terms? So.
[00:19:38] Nicole: you know, the.
[00:19:39] Isaac: illegal or undocumented immigrant is a really good example. You know, if you read Fox News talking about somebody who comes to the country illegally, they will
[00:19:48] Nicole: call them illegal alien,
[00:19:49] Isaac: in their news report.
[00:19:50] Nicole: but if you're reading
[00:19:51] Isaac: New York
[00:19:52] Nicole: times they refer that
[00:19:53] Isaac: as an undocumented immigrant.
[00:19:55] Nicole: those are two really different terms that kind of,
[00:19:57] Isaac: really different feelings that
[00:19:58] Nicole: that are supposed to be [00:20:00] descriptions of,
[00:20:02] Isaac: you
[00:20:02] Nicole: you know, crime
[00:20:03] Isaac: committed and their
[00:20:03] Nicole: status here.
[00:20:04] Isaac: the country.
[00:20:05] Nicole: So these,
[00:20:06] Isaac: we settled on that. Uh, on that specific term, we started using the term unauthorized migrant,
[00:20:13] Nicole: which to.
[00:20:14] Isaac: a, it's, it's really the government language that's like a pretty typical way the government might describe. Somebody who crosses here illegally, crosses into the country illegally or overstays a visa or whatever.
[00:20:24] Nicole: Whatever. and it just actually kind of captures what the person has
[00:20:28] Isaac: without, in our view, kind of dehumanizing them as an alien or that the person itself is illegal or whatever. It's like,
[00:20:35] Nicole: descrip description of the, they're here, they're not
[00:20:37] Isaac: to be
[00:20:38] Nicole: here, and it's not.
[00:20:39] Isaac: like soft and whimsical as like undocumented immigrant, which is, it's not like, it's not just that they don't have documents, that's not the
[00:20:47] Nicole: Right.
[00:20:47] Isaac: like they've broken a law to be here. Excuse me. Um, so. We started employing that term and pretty quickly we saw that the rate of complaints around our language on immigration plummeted from both [00:21:00] sides. were getting people in the door and through the kind of explanation and to the actual arguments. we started doing
[00:21:07] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:26] Isaac: our biases were. and over time we've just continued to build that out. Even the immigrant one we're iterating on still.
[00:21:33] Nicole: You know, sometimes you.
[00:21:35] Isaac: like after publishing this and doing this over and over, like unauthorized migrant is a pretty good legal term for somebody who migrated here. But what about somebody who came here on an immigrant visa and overstated it, like they're not really an unauthorized migrant, so.
[00:21:51] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:21:52] Isaac: we started referring to them as like, immigrants here illegally. It's like they immigrated here and now they're here illegally, but we're not
[00:21:58] Nicole: An
[00:21:59] Isaac: them an illegal[00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Nicole: illegal alien.
[00:22:00] Isaac: And
[00:22:00] Nicole: That's a language that describes,
[00:22:03] Isaac: you
[00:22:03] Nicole: know, the drive.
[00:22:04] Isaac: but
[00:22:04] Nicole: does it sort of,
[00:22:05] Isaac: like the dehumanizing effect that the left doesn't like and doesn't obscure it in a way that the right doesn't like it.
[00:22:10] But it, it's a process, you know, like we're figuring out what works and what doesn't. And it has a pretty big impact in the way people consume our work is what we found.
[00:22:19] Nicole: I would agree. So can I ask you on
[00:22:21] Jolene: on
[00:22:22] Nicole: the polls that you do? Oh.
[00:22:24] take
[00:22:25] Jolene: the articles
[00:22:25] Nicole: you, um, talked about all week long, and people can, readers then
[00:22:30] Jolene: can,
[00:22:30] Nicole: give their answers to the
[00:22:32] Jolene: The
[00:22:33] Nicole: that you,
[00:22:33] Jolene: pose on and a polling,
[00:22:35] Nicole: my assumption because I'm Republican,
[00:22:38] Jolene: and
[00:22:39] Nicole: conservative.
[00:22:40] Jolene: I look at the, the results of these polls, and I think that most of your polls lean left
[00:22:45] Nicole: sorry, the results of
[00:22:46] Jolene: your poles
[00:22:47] Nicole: left. Do you find that you have more left leaning
[00:22:50] readers
[00:22:51] Jolene: or
[00:22:52] Nicole: do you think it's
[00:22:53] Jolene: that more
[00:22:54] Nicole: Democrats or Liberal
[00:22:56] Jolene: liberals respond to polls than maybe that [00:23:00] Republicans don't respond?
[00:23:01] Isaac: Yeah.
[00:23:03] Jolene: on that?
[00:23:04] Nicole: think it's.
[00:23:05] Isaac: is kind of what we've determined. Um, we, we think that the audience skews left and that the skew is
[00:23:13] Nicole: Basically
[00:23:14] Isaac: exaggerated by the dynamic
[00:23:16] Nicole: you described which,
[00:23:17] Isaac: very, a smart observation.
[00:23:19] Nicole: which.
[00:23:20] Isaac: Public studies have affirmed over and over again, which is in today's political alignment, conservatives are way less likely to answer questions about their political views to a pollster or a news organization or someone who calls them or texts them, or in an email survey like this than liberals are.
[00:23:38] They're just much more skeptical
[00:23:40] Nicole: Of like what's gonna happen, that information or what does it mean?
[00:23:43] Isaac: sharing my views publicly? there's
[00:23:45] Nicole: Which is a really interesting thing, by the way, that there's this,
[00:23:48] Isaac: That, that
[00:23:49] Nicole: we can predict the,
[00:23:50] Isaac: with
[00:23:51] Nicole: someone might respond to politics.
[00:23:53] Isaac: by what
[00:23:54] Nicole: Politics are,
[00:23:55] Isaac: I, I think, is really
[00:23:56] Nicole: yeah, yeah.
[00:23:57] Jolene: right.
[00:23:57] Isaac: are the
[00:23:58] Nicole: upstream of that,
[00:23:59] Isaac: that's [00:24:00] making that possible?
[00:24:01] Nicole: but yes.
[00:24:02] Isaac: So for a long time, our audience was really evenly split, about 40% self-identified as liberal, 30% self IDed as conservative, and 30% said they were independent or other, 2024, we like the biggest earned media event that we had was that this American Life, uh, which is an NPR program, did this report on us and they told a really beautiful story about the work that we've done. And it drove tons of subscribers
[00:24:31] Nicole: To our website, basically
[00:24:32] Isaac: our
[00:24:32] Nicole: website. Literally our website,
[00:24:34] Isaac: We couldn't handle the traffic. And in
[00:24:36] Nicole: in the matter of like
[00:24:37] Isaac: a
[00:24:38] Nicole: a month
[00:24:39] Isaac: Our audience doubled
[00:24:41] Nicole: and
[00:24:41] Isaac: what
[00:24:42] Nicole: we know now about
[00:24:43] Isaac: radio, another thing that didn't used to be true, but it's now true,
[00:24:47] Nicole: that
[00:24:47] Isaac: uh, majority of
[00:24:48] Nicole: of public radio
[00:24:50] Isaac: are people who vote for Democrats.
[00:24:51] They're, they, they tend to be left of center. NPR
[00:24:54] Nicole: obviously
[00:24:55] Isaac: faced a
[00:24:55] Nicole: a lot of accusations,
[00:24:56] Isaac: being left-leaning.
[00:24:57] Nicole: so.
[00:24:58] Isaac: We
[00:24:59] Nicole: We [00:25:00] suspect that the people who came,
[00:25:01] Isaac: through that big boost in
[00:25:03] Nicole: oh.
[00:25:03] Isaac: were predominantly liberal and actually skewed the audience further to the left. We've only done one really big survey of our audience since then.
[00:25:11] We got about 20,000 responses to it, and in that survey we still had 30% of our audience that was self. IDing is independent, but about 20, 25% were now
[00:25:24] Nicole: Conservative
[00:25:25] Isaac: And I
[00:25:25] Nicole: I think it was like
[00:25:27] Isaac: Whatever,
[00:25:28] Nicole: 40
[00:25:28] Isaac: or
[00:25:29] Nicole: 50%.
[00:25:30] Isaac: were self IDing as liberal
[00:25:31] Nicole: So we saw like the liberal side go.
[00:25:33] Isaac: bit, the conservative side go down a little bit, and that independent group stay the same.
[00:25:37] Nicole: So I think, um, among our
[00:25:39] Isaac: audience, conservatives are a little
[00:25:41] Nicole: nu
[00:25:41] Isaac: outnumbered
[00:25:42] Nicole: and I.
[00:25:42] Isaac: they're also less likely to take those kinds of polls. And so it skews the results, which interestingly is something we talk about a lot internally is. are people on
[00:25:53] Nicole: On our team,
[00:25:53] Isaac: feel really strongly that we should stop publishing the results of those polls because they're alienating for conservative [00:26:00] readers and they're sort of inaccurately portraying to our audience that the readership and makeup of tangle is way more left-leaning than it actually is.
[00:26:09] And so
[00:26:10] Nicole: we've had a lot
[00:26:11] Isaac: internal debate
[00:26:12] Nicole: about, you know, whether we should change the,
[00:26:15] Isaac: a little bit. So, because
[00:26:16] Nicole: it's like.
[00:26:17] Isaac: feels like doing that for that reason would kind of be a lack of transparency.
[00:26:21] Nicole: But we're also like
[00:26:22] Isaac: conveying something to our conservative readers that isn't true, which is that like they're outnumbered 10 to
[00:26:28] Nicole: something, right?
[00:26:29] Isaac: show.
[00:26:29] Nicole: and so.
[00:26:30] Isaac: wrestle with that a lot and I'm not totally sure what to do about it yet, but it's something we think about. Um, and, and it's a concern of ours. 'cause the premise of Tangle is we're a big tent media organization and we want liberals and conservatives under one roof feeling welcomed and invited. And
[00:26:46] Nicole: That's a hard
[00:26:47] Isaac: that's a hard
[00:26:47] Nicole: thing to do. Conservatives are around. Mm-hmm.
[00:26:51] Isaac: not a space for me. You know, that kind of undermines the mission a bit.
[00:26:54] Nicole: that make you think about how you write? Does it affect you in any way because of that? [00:27:00] look, I'm sure,
[00:27:00] Isaac: so I'm sure there are
[00:27:01] Nicole: yeah. Subconsciously.
[00:27:03] Isaac: that happen or there. Um, there are pressures that I'm not totally processing that exist there, but. I have a really clear delineated north star that I've been true to for seven years of doing tangle that has,
[00:27:18] Nicole: So far.
[00:27:19] Isaac: guided me really well and helped me create this really successful media
[00:27:22] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:22] Isaac: feel like has a lot of integrity, which is. I am honest with my audience about what I'm feeling and I'm gonna tell them honestly what I think. And I think I, I'm well positioned for the work, 'cause my politics just tend to be pretty moderate and kind of like circle the center of today's sort of left right political spectrum.
[00:27:42] Nicole: Which makes,
[00:27:43] Isaac: being honest, easy for me.
[00:27:44] Like I don't, I don't feel like I have to
[00:27:46] Nicole: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:48] Isaac: I'm just, I often just land in a little, in a place where I'm like, I don't really agree with either side wholesale on this issue. It's pretty rare that I feel that way. I'm like feeling [00:28:00] that kind of pressure or I'm worried about how the audience is gonna react to something I'm writing, I just, you know, I go back to this central thing, which is like.
[00:28:08] Nicole: I've made this promise.
[00:28:09] Isaac: I'm gonna be honest about how I'm feeling and if, if I've come to this view, honestly, and I really think this, and I know that, I think this, I need to articulate it and be honest about it. And I'll
[00:28:19] Nicole: I'll try and articulate.
[00:28:20] Isaac: it in a way where my opponents, you know, the people who I perceive to be my opponents on the issue will hear me. Like, I, I want to be persuasive. I want to reach them. And I think, like I change my language in that
[00:28:34] Nicole: Sometimes
[00:28:34] Isaac: if I, if I'm feeling like. I, I know this might upset some people, but I want to deliver this in a way where they can hear me. I
[00:28:42] Nicole: I try do that, but I don't think I ever ob
[00:28:46] Isaac: my actual views on something.
[00:28:48] You know, like I'm, first of all, it's like exhausting to keep track of your lies. If you're doing that, like I'm writing every day, like, I don't know how I could keep that
[00:28:57] Nicole: right. Uh,
[00:28:58] Isaac: but
[00:28:58] Nicole: you also have a [00:29:00] staff, like you have a staff that's pretty well balanced and, and you now have this, is it a descent that you guys do now,
[00:29:07] Isaac: Yeah,
[00:29:07] Nicole: I think is really great.
[00:29:10] Isaac: thanks. I'm, I'm really proud of, uh, and th that addition to
[00:29:14] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:29:15] Isaac: and, um, it was actually an idea that came from somebody not on editorial from my, um, COO who started here as like a social media manager. But yeah, she came, we were arguing about something in the news in the Slack channel one time that was in the newsletter, in our company Slack.
[00:29:32] And, um, we let everybody, not just editorial, participate in these ideological debates that happen around the issues. Like we have a team of 12 people, maybe six of them are writers and editors, but. Everybody chimes in on these big issues. 'cause like, you know, it's, we don't have some, uh, exclusivity on good ideas or smart politics or whatever.
[00:29:53] And a lot of really smart people work here. And Magdalena, who's our COO, she was watching us argue about [00:30:00] something and like the general Slack channel, and she was like. There should be a place in the newsletter where somebody can say that they disagree with the take writer. Like you guys should have a blurb at the end where somebody can unload
[00:30:10] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:11] Isaac: wrote that day's take basically. And we were like, that's a really good idea. And then it was during like a bunch of Supreme Court decisions coming out and we were like, what about a dissent section like the Supreme Court
[00:30:23] Nicole: Right, right.
[00:30:24] Isaac: this one paragraph. So yeah, we started this staff dissent now, um, which allows, like if people feel really compelled, they're an edited a piece and they're trying to help the writer strengthen their arguments, but they don't actually agree with the arguments, which is something you have to do at this job, which is really hard sometimes. Then they can sort of. Create this space to kind of push back and argue in their own fashion. And our audience has loved it. I think it's, it's shown the ideological diversity we
[00:30:51] Nicole: Yes.
[00:30:51] Isaac: the team and
[00:30:52] Nicole: Okay.
[00:30:53] Isaac: like constructive disagreement in a way that I think is helpful.
[00:30:57] Jolene: Do you think that we've, we're at a [00:31:00] turning
[00:31:00] Nicole: right now, like
[00:31:01] Jolene: we, this is as
[00:31:02] Nicole: bad
[00:31:02] Jolene: as it's going to get and that it can only get better? Or are
[00:31:07] Nicole: or it's gonna get worse.
[00:31:09] Jolene: Uh, yeah, or we're gonna have to live with this for another 10 years?
[00:31:12] Isaac: I think like there are real things that, um, that I, that I worry about. You know, I, I'm not like an AI dor, but I think the artificial inte, artificial intelligence videos and audio clips and, just being able to mass disseminate stuff even in to a larger and faster degree than we can now. Is going to create a lot of problems in the future.
[00:31:36] I, I think an antidote to really bad. the like lowest common denominator, fear-based politics that we have. The antidote to that is often rational, constructive thinking. It's like slowing down, being thoughtful, being analytical. And I think as more and more people rely on Claude or chat GBT to think for them and they kind of outsource that critical thinking.
[00:31:59] Jolene: [00:32:00] Mm-hmm.
[00:32:00] Isaac: gonna be easier and easier to access people's kinds of fears and whatever
[00:32:04] Nicole: Mm
[00:32:05] Isaac: the base instinct stuff. And that worries me a bit. but I will say, and I've written about this recently, is, you know, I, I, I think we've sort of scraped the bottom of the indecency
[00:32:18] Nicole: God. I hope so.
[00:32:19] Isaac: and
[00:32:19] Nicole: I hope so.
[00:32:20] Isaac: I, yeah.
[00:32:21] And, and I, and I, and I'm not saying that to be like an optimist or to just to be pollyannish or whatever. It's like. I'm certainly trying to speak it into existence a little bit, but I really do believe it. I mean, I talk like. Yeah, talk to normal American people from across the political spectrum all the time, and they all talk in the terms that you guys were at the top of the show.
[00:32:42] They're like, God, it sucks right now. It's so intense. It's so like overbearing and either politically correct or just like over the top cruel and mean
[00:32:53] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:32:54] Isaac: and I'm just. just exhausted. I don't want to participate, I wanna step out, whatever. I
[00:32:59] Nicole: I.
[00:32:59] Isaac: a lot of [00:33:00] Americans feel that way. And so I think a candidate or a political figure who came into the space, who sort of embodied a decency and was really, charismatic and thoughtful and sort of led with some of those virtues of just like turning the temperature down a bit.
[00:33:15] Nicole: Could actually change
[00:33:17] Isaac: tide. And I think, that we're gonna see a big sort of decency comeback. You know, we're gonna see people welcome open arms. Somebody coming into the political arena who respects their political opponents and takes the high road and isn't just like slinging mud and, and sort of doing the lowest common denominator thing.
[00:33:37] Nicole: I think we've had some
[00:33:38] Isaac: some
[00:33:39] Nicole: canaries in bull.
[00:33:40] Isaac: And this is what I wrote about my piece was. You know, Marjorie Taylor Greene, apologizing for the way she conducted herself and talking about the negative impact
[00:33:47] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:48] Isaac: how she acted as a member of Congress. Um, James Taylor Rico defeating Jasmine Crockett pretty easily in a really important Democratic primary by taking a very, very different T than her, [00:34:00] despite having really similar politics. Vivek Ram Swami coming out and saying, I'm not interested in owning the Libs anymore. Like, that's not the path forward. We have to recalibrate. Th these things are happening, I think because even if they're, lemme put it this way,
[00:34:15] Nicole: Even if these things are happening,
[00:34:17] Isaac: those politicians
[00:34:18] Nicole: are self interested.
[00:34:19] Isaac: and they want
[00:34:19] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:20] Isaac: Th
[00:34:21] Nicole: That still means that they're
[00:34:23] Isaac: around and think that's the right play for the electorate right now, which is a good thing.
[00:34:28] Jolene: Right.
[00:34:28] Isaac: so like even in
[00:34:29] Nicole: the worst case scenario.
[00:34:30] Isaac: they're just doing it out of self-interest, I think it's a sign that like they know that we're moving that way, which I find hopeful.
[00:34:37] So, fingers crossed, I guess.
[00:34:40] Nicole: Hey Isaac, do you have a good for the soul?
[00:34:43] Isaac: Yeah.
[00:34:44] I do.
[00:34:48] my Good for the Soul is a book recommendation, which is my favorite, uh, writer of all time. Brian Doyle, who wrote the book One Long River of Song, which is actually [00:35:00] a collection of his short essays. It's one of my favorite. of writing ever published.
[00:35:07] And it's, um, would say he is extremely good at sort of capturing like the mundane magic of life. And if you are feeling, uh, like soulless and beaten down and, um, exhausted, it's like a, it's, it will replenish your soul is my promise. There's a little bit of political writing in there that's pretty left-leaning.
[00:35:28] You just ignore that if it's not your thing, but.
[00:35:30] Jolene: All right. Okay.
[00:35:32] Isaac: but he's like a very, he's like a progressive Catholic, I think is kind of my read on his
[00:35:37] Nicole: Jolene is Catholic.
[00:35:38] Isaac: write about politics at all, but he, um, he, he mostly just criticizes the ineptitude of government and stuff in a very funny way.
[00:35:46] But, um, most of the pieces are about his life, his children, his wife, his brother. Just like the beauty of nature.
[00:35:54] Jolene: Oh,
[00:35:54] Isaac: it's fantastic. I can't recommend it enough.
[00:35:57] Nicole: Awesome.
[00:35:58] Jolene: We will, we will add that into the [00:36:00] show notes for sure. okay. Isaac Saul,
[00:36:03] Nicole: We're doing the Would you rather now, right.
[00:36:10] Jolene: would you rather discuss current events in our country with people on the extreme fringes of each party the exhausted middle may have given up all hope?
[00:36:22] Isaac: I think I
[00:36:25] Nicole: I would choose
[00:36:26] Isaac: the exhausted middle who have given up all hope. I think like
[00:36:30] Nicole: the people.
[00:36:31] Isaac: if I had to choose one, I would want to activate and sort of bring into the back, onto the playing field.
[00:36:39] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:36:40] Isaac: because of my personal politics.
[00:36:41] But, I have to say, I kind of have the most fun talking to the extreme fringes of both
[00:36:48] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:48] Isaac: because I, I, I found in my experience is, uh, they have the easiest arguments to sort of deconstruct and. [00:37:00] Dunk on in some ways, but it, but like in a, in ways that I feel like I've gotten really good at getting through to people like that. and I feel like I'm doing something important when I do that. You know, I don't believe my work is at all meant to moderate people's politics or deradicalize them or whatever. But I think people who are on those fringes tend to be really cynical about the other side and tend to have a lot of like anger and fear. And I think sometimes when I can. Use logic and evidence and persuasion to convince them that maybe their view shouldn't be as extreme as it is. helps them in those ways a little bit, and I feel good about that. So, um, I have more fun talking to them, but if I could only choose one, I'd probably choose the exhausted middle.
[00:37:44] Jolene: I love the thought of it, right? I mean, like, you have the ability to either talk to somebody to reengage them, or you've got the. The ability to try to change someone's mind. And I mean, I think we're all in a place right now where we're not sure that we can change anybody's mind.
[00:37:59] You know? I don't think that [00:38:00] you can, if you can give
[00:38:01] Nicole: All the facts. Mm-hmm.
[00:38:01] Jolene: and figures, and I, I, I'll tell you one thing that I, I loved the interview that you and your wife do on
[00:38:09] Nicole: Oh yeah. That was great.
[00:38:11] Jolene: I learned so much from her work and the, the no cash bail. that whole conversation, I've
[00:38:17] Nicole: That so much.
[00:38:18] Jolene: because. Uh, uh, yeah, and, and I, and I, and like her perspective it really kind of, I think brings home that when you hear from somebody who is working in that atmosphere and working with these folks and, and she made no bones about it, like this, this is hard stuff and
[00:38:34] Isaac: Yeah.
[00:38:34] Jolene: I want nothing to do with, with this client, but I, I gotta do it 'cause that's my job and I believe in it. But to hear
[00:38:41] Nicole: Talk.
[00:38:42] Jolene: through that all of a sudden, I mean, it changed my mind
[00:38:45] Isaac: Wow.
[00:38:45] Jolene: I'm like. Okay. This is, I mean, this is what we talk about all the time, you to, to
[00:38:50] Nicole: Vulnerable.
[00:38:51] Jolene: vulnerable and, and listen to somebody who knows so much more about it than I do. I mean, that's what we're trying to
[00:38:58] Nicole: so I.
[00:38:58] Jolene: so I love your answer. I mean, you [00:39:00] know, let's talk to the people in, in the middle because we've got to get them reengaged and, and know that they've, that they matter, you know, that their voice
[00:39:07] Nicole: Matters.
[00:39:08] Jolene: So
[00:39:09] Isaac: I
[00:39:09] Nicole: I appreciate that and I, I love that.
[00:39:11] Isaac: too, 'cause her and I kind of disagreed about it as well and she was sort of moving my position in real time,
[00:39:18] Nicole: Okay, good.
[00:39:18] Isaac: we spend so much time talking about it, you know, at home and whatever. So,
[00:39:22] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:39:23] Nicole: I,
[00:39:23] Isaac: glad to hear that stuck with you.
[00:39:25] Nicole: yeah, yeah.
[00:39:26] Jolene: absolutely.
[00:39:26] Nicole: Alright. What's your.
[00:39:27] Jolene: what's your, rather for us.
[00:39:30] Isaac: okay. This is what I thought of. I, I, I didn't go in the politics direction at all. I was just thinking about like, things that I couldn't do without. so my, would you rather, was, would you rather give up for the rest of your life, driving
[00:39:46] Jolene: Oh,
[00:39:46] Isaac: being able to order something online?
[00:39:50] Nicole: Oh, I'd give up ordering something online in a heartbeat.
[00:39:53] Isaac: wow. Interesting.
[00:39:54] Nicole: a heartbeat. I love to drive, even though I live in New York City, I love [00:40:00] to drive the ordering. I mean, listen, it's great. We can order stuff online. It's amazing, and this is gonna sound corny, but I, it's really like if you have to go in and interact with someone in the shop, it actually gives you more back too.
[00:40:16] It's a part of that connection that I feel like we're totally missing. Like people want.
[00:40:21] Isaac: agree with that, but like the convenience of being
[00:40:25] Nicole: True.
[00:40:25] Isaac: online when you're
[00:40:26] Nicole: True. Yeah.
[00:40:28] Isaac: that again.
[00:40:29] Nicole: Well, and you And you have a baby, so you have limited time, right?
[00:40:33] Isaac: Yeah. Like diapers to the front door. I
[00:40:36] Nicole: right.
[00:40:37] Isaac: can put a price on that right now, you know?
[00:40:40] Nicole: Well, and there's Uber now and Waymo. So I guess Jolene, what do you think?
[00:40:45] Jolene: Oh, that's true. I, I don't know. I love to drive to, I love, I love road trips. I guess I'm gonna go without shopping. Online.
[00:40:54] Nicole: Look at that. The liberal and the conservative. Yeah. You would?
[00:40:58] Isaac: Yeah. I think, I think I, [00:41:00] in the end, I think I landed there, but my initial reaction was. I would lose so much time if I couldn't deliver something to my house anymore.
[00:41:08] Nicole: Yes.
[00:41:08] Isaac: Just like, I, like, I just, I needed a new mouse yesterday. I can't remember the last time I went to the store to buy a, like a piece of computer
[00:41:17] Nicole: Where?
[00:41:17] Jolene: would I would go
[00:41:18] Nicole: Yes.
[00:41:19] Isaac: is Best Buy still a thing? Is that like a, is that a, yeah. I don't know how I would handle that. So, um,
[00:41:25] Jolene: that's a
[00:41:26] Isaac: Yeah.
[00:41:27] Nicole: a good
[00:41:27] Jolene: question. Those are
[00:41:28] Nicole: Those, yes, you were really good.
[00:41:29] Jolene: had that one before. That is
[00:41:30] Isaac: I spent a little bit of time thinking about it. I tried to come up with something
[00:41:34] Nicole: and Jolene's the queen. Jolene is the queen. Would you rather?
[00:41:37] Isaac: one.
[00:41:37] Nicole: So
[00:41:38] Jolene: okay.
[00:41:38] Nicole: you ever, if you ever need one, just call her up and she'll,
[00:41:42] Isaac: All.
[00:41:42] Nicole: she'll give you one. Oh my gosh.
[00:41:44] Jolene: we
[00:41:45] Nicole: Thank you.
[00:41:45] Jolene: you being, uh, here with us. This has been truly a thrill for us to, to get to talk to you in person. We, we promised we wouldn't like fan girl, you and, and be absolutely
[00:41:57] Nicole: it's been really hard.
[00:41:58] Jolene: He's,
[00:41:59] Nicole: Because it's, [00:42:00] it's Isaac Saul.
[00:42:00] Jolene: person. And, but you're not, you're Isaac
[00:42:03] Nicole: Yes, exactly.
[00:42:05] Jolene: we love your work.
[00:42:06] We, we really appreciate what you do and, and, um, we just appreciate you being on.
[00:42:11] Nicole: Yes. Thank you, Isaac.
[00:42:12] Isaac: having me. It, it is my pleasure. I appreciate it.
[00:42:15] Nicole: All right.
[00:42:15] Jolene: Great. Thanks
[00:42:17] Nicole: Thank you.
[00:42:18]
