What is a Sanctuary City and how do they work?
What does a Sanctuary City actually mean and how do they really work? It can be a term used as a political weapon, a humanitarian badge of honor, or a shorthand for lawlessness, depending on who is doing the talking. But as we sat down to figure it out, it became clear that most of us are arguing about a concept we don’t fully understand. We’re fighting over the labels while the actual history and the legal reality of what "sanctuary" means are getting lost.
Nicole (the liberal Democrat) admitted to feeling a familiar tug of anxiety going into this conversation. Immigration is the ultimate "scary" topic because it’s so deeply tied to identity and safety, and it’s an area where the political camps are most deeply entrenched. But the history of the sanctuary movement doesn’t actually start with city councils or liberal mayors; it starts in 1980s church basements. When religious leaders in Arizona began sheltering Central American refugees fleeing civil wars. They weren't trying to score political points; they were acting on a humanitarian and religious conviction that people shouldn’t be sent back to face certain death. It’s a reminder that what we now call a "policy" began as a human response to suffering.
Then there is the messy reality of how the law actually works. We have this idea that a sanctuary city is a place where the law doesn't apply, but the truth is much more bureaucratic. Since the Clinton administration’s major shifts in 1996, immigration has moved from being a labor issue to a criminal justice issue. Today, if you are arrested in a sanctuary city, your fingerprints still go to the FBI and ICE. The "sanctuary" part is really just a question of cooperation: will local police hold someone for an extra 48 hours purely on a request from federal immigration authorities?
Jolene (the Conservative Christian Republican) brought up a perspective that often gets ignored in the "law and order" rhetoric: the police themselves often want these policies. If a witness to a crime is too terrified to call the police because they might be deported, the whole neighborhood becomes less safe. When we stop looking at this as a "blue vs. red" issue and start looking at it through the lens of community trust, the conversation changes entirely.
We also had to confront the uncomfortable truths on both sides. Nicole found herself "flabbergasted" by the deportation numbers under the Obama administration, which is a reality that doesn't fit the neat narrative of "Democrats are for open borders." On the other side, Jolene highlighted the valid frustration of seeing repeat offenders walk free due to administrative loopholes. We both realized that even with our different political leanings, we’re actually looking for the same thing: a system that has common sense, that protects the vulnerable, and that doesn't treat people as political pawns or mere statistics.
In the end, we don’t have a perfect solution to the immigration crisis, and we certainly don't expect to change anyone's mind, but we do believe that vulnerability is power. If we can admit that we don't have it all figured out, and if we can get curious about the "why" behind the headlines, we might actually start to heal. The goal isn't to win the argument; it's to stay in the room with each other while we figure out how to build a system that actually works for everyone.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Historical Origins of the Sanctuary Movement
Legal Framework & Policy Definitions
The Obama Era & Enforcement Legacy
The Mixed Legacy of Obama’s Immigration Policy (Cato Institute):
The Shift to the Priority Enforcement Program (American Immigration Council:
Multimedia & Visual Explaners
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[00:00:00] nicole: She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money. And we say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud. Welcome to, we've got to talk. Hello, Jolene.
[00:00:22] Jolene: Hello, Nicole. Welcome to, we've Got To Talk, we are talking about sanctuary cities today, how they started, why they're here, what's,
[00:00:33] nicole: they
[00:00:33] Jolene: how they've developed
[00:00:35] nicole: That's
[00:00:35] Jolene: everything.
[00:00:36] nicole: I will give you my three hot takes and then you give me yours.
[00:00:39] Jolene: Okay.
[00:00:40] nicole: I need to preface this. I'm a little bit nervous today, immigration always like seeps into our conversations a lot. You know,
[00:00:48] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:00:48] nicole: over a year in it's clearly a very sensitive topic for people, and so I'm nervous and I'm just putting that
[00:00:56] Jolene: Okay.
[00:00:57] nicole: And then, and then let's go.
[00:00:59] Jolene: Okay.[00:01:00]
[00:01:00] nicole: My hot take number one. the more that I delve into this subject, the more and more contradictions I find is a wildly complicated subject with a wildly complicated history. Number two, the current political landscape is trying to simplify this issue is trying to force us to choose a side so we continue to fight with each other. Number three. And this is probably fairly radical, I believe if it was possible for us to take a deep breath, get quiet sit down with each other, we could fix this and it could be a bipartisan solution. Not
[00:01:46] Jolene: My Lord. Okay. I like all of those. Thank you for letting me know that you're nervous about this because I think, we can talk about this in a way that puts you at ease and we can, um, and not make [00:02:00] it controversial. I mean, I hope. Um, alright, here's my, here are my hot takes, number one.
[00:02:07] Sanctuary cities were really used to protect undocumented, people from the very start. but I think what's shifted is Kind of the, the tides have turned about,
[00:02:17] what that protection actually means. I think it's less about immigrants and so I, I think this is gonna be interesting.
[00:02:24] I think it's less about immigrants, but more about what the role of local policing should be. Because that's really kind of the crux of this is, you know, what, what are the roles of local police supposed to be? Do they enforce federal laws? So, I, I kind of want to delve into that. but I think the problem with this, if laws are only optional, depending on where they are having la, Chicago, San Francisco, if you only have laws that are optional, depending on the city that you're in.
[00:02:55] What good is the law? And I think, um, and I'm sure we'll get into [00:03:00] this because, you know, as we, as we've talked about, republicans typically think of smaller government and localized government and, and less, you know, federal laws, um, are good. But, this is one of those instances, kind of like when we talked about the, the voter ID that, there have gotta be some standards and then it, it trickles down to the local, to the local government. so let's get into it.
[00:03:25] nicole: maybe we should start with how we, what we could possibly agree with?
[00:03:29] Jolene: Okay. Well, okay, so let me ask you, do you think that, uh, local police should be enforcing federal law?
[00:03:40] nicole: this is what's been interesting for me, Jolene, is that I really sort of delved into the history of this, the history of what is sanctuary,
[00:03:49] Jolene: Let's start with that then I, let's start, let's, let's roll back. Let's talk about the history of sanctuary cities.
[00:03:56] nicole: Okay. So, so originally. The [00:04:00] history of sanctuary itself was, Roman in Greek times, if someone was in danger, they could go to a church and receive sanctuary, meaning they would feel that they were safe from persecution or death, and that there was a place that they could rest their head. and then interestingly, in the 1980s during the Reagan administration. There were a couple of wars happening that u the US was providing, for, uh, in Guatemala and in El Salvador. and there was a influx of immigrants or migrants that were trying to escape death, persecution,
[00:04:46] Jolene: Well, so my understanding is, the infrastructure of the church were, was providing, um, shelter, legal aid, and protection from deportation.
[00:04:55] nicole: Yes, there was a reverend named John Fife from, he was a [00:05:00] Presbyterian reverend, uh, from Tucson, Arizona, and he started, it was called the Sanctuary Movement, and it grew into about 300 churches. Um, and it was for exactly that, cause they were missionaries going into these countries and seeing these horrible, witnessing, these horrible scenes women being raped and stabbed. Uh, fathers being murdered in front of their families and they wanted to do something about it. and during that time with the Reagan administration, there he was, or his administration was sort of, it seems like turning a blind eye about this situation, meaning Jolene, government would, for instance, Iran, Poland and Afghanistan at that time were also going in conflict, and about 60 to 80% of those people seeking asylum were brought in. But in terms of the, of Central America, at that time, only 3% were [00:06:00] receiving asylum. And the churches were beside themselves and they wanted to create a place for people to come and seek shelter it seemed as though it was also a protest against was going on in the Reagan administration. It wasn't like that, those, in those days, it wasn't like the churches are liberal and Democrat. It was just different. It was the churches were churches and they were like, this
[00:06:24] Jolene: Yep.
[00:06:25] nicole: is what we wanna create.
[00:06:27] Jolene: uh, I'm gonna pause there. Because I think it was the church's fault that it was their duty. That if the government wasn't going to help them, the churches from a humanitarian standpoint said, we've got, you know, we've got families that are coming in here, we can help take care of them.
[00:06:41] So I don't know that it was even a political. Or an anti, you know, anti-government movement. It was really from a humanitarian and from a, a Christian standpoint, I think they were mostly Christian churches that were saying, no, like, we can, we can take care of some of these refugees.
[00:06:58] nicole: So what I found [00:07:00] fascinating because the way immigration, situation is proposed these days, it seems as though it's about hating Trump and that liberals wouldn't do that that. If you're a liberal Democrat, your belief is that everyone is welcome, that we would never deport, blah, blah, blah.
[00:07:23] And as I was reading and researching this topic, there were a couple things that were just astounding to me. Number one, and I, this is like a brand new, I just hot off, hot into my brain, since at least the 1880s, there's always been different, um, immigration and laws in effect and some of it has to do with race and some it have, I mean, there, there are, it's, there's been a history of the borders being quite open and the borders closing in 1924. Like there's been lots of [00:08:00] different, waves of immigration.
[00:08:03] Right.
[00:08:04] there's a couple of of films that Vox is a a news company and I will put it in the show notes. They're really great, um, visuals for you all to understand the history of immigration, the history of sanctuary cities.
[00:08:19] It's just really clear helpful to sort of understand how complicated this is. But in the sixties and seventies. the Latin American countries were exempt from the strict, immigration policies because they could come in and out and they'd work and then they'd go back home to their families.
[00:08:39] And I think we've talked about that a little bit in the immigration episode we did a year ago. And how in 1996 Clinton. Created the Ira IRA act. Did you, did you read
[00:08:54] Jolene: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:55] nicole: fantastic. And. How that [00:09:00] changed the game. And it went from like INS back in the forties, used to be the part, part of the Department of Labor and FDR at the time, what was going on in World War II and people starting to come over after World War ii, moved the department, of immigration from the Department of Labor to the Department of Justice. instead of managing people, it was a law enforcement agency, which I found really fascinating.
[00:09:29] Jolene: I think it is interesting that you, you went from the 1980s and kind of how it, how. This sanctuary movement started within the churches to, like, everything was kind of fine. Nobody really cared. There wasn't that much hoopla about it until 1996 when the illegal immigration reform that you referred to, uh, under the Clinton administration, which limited local governments from restricting, uh, communication.
[00:09:57] From a local level with the federal, [00:10:00] immigration officials. and it was really, it was, it was bipartisan, actions that, that got the bill through. It was introduced by a, a Texan.
[00:10:08] talking about the, you know, the borders, um, and all the people coming across the, the Texan and, and really the California, um, borders and Bill Clinton, agreed it was, it was a bipartisan issue that they needed to do something about illegal, illegal immigration.
[00:10:23] nicole: And at the time, which I, I think I sort of remember because there was this movie called Green Card, and I remember that movie, I
[00:10:30] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:10:31] nicole: in the eighties, about like falling in love and you having to prove that you were really in love before you could get into the country.
[00:10:39] Jolene: Yeah, yeah. Uh, no, but I mean, isn't that also like, oh, you know what I did?
[00:10:47] nicole: the French man, Gerard De and Andy
[00:10:51] Jolene: yes.
[00:10:52] nicole: which
[00:10:52] Jolene: Yep.
[00:10:53] nicole: me that Ira, IRA, before Ira, IRA, there were three ways to become an citizen you [00:11:00] could get married. Uh, you could be sponsored by your family member that was already a CI citizen here, or sponsored by an employer. When Ira, IRA was put into place in 1996 by President Clinton, They started to think about. And it sort of in a law enforcement way and how to deter people from coming. And so that if you had been in the country for six months, you would have to leave for three years and then be allowed to come back. If you were in the country for over a year, you had to leave for 10 years and then come back. And what they thought, they thought, oh, this is totally gonna work. People are gonna. Abide by this, and instead it was the opposite. said, I can't leave 'cause I'll never be able to come back. and then here is part of the problem.
[00:11:55] Jolene: Well, okay, so then in 2008, then this is after nine 11, and George [00:12:00] W. Bush is in office. They had the Secure Secure Communities Act,
[00:12:04] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:05] Jolene: was a federal program, and the goal was to identify undocumented people who had been arrested. They thought that there were, you know, again, this was after nine 11, so this was more probably geared towards, um, middle Eastern. People that if they had an opportunity to arrest them, they needed to keep them in custody for a little bit longer, do the background checks and make sure that, you know, that there weren't terrorists, or that we could arrest terrorists, um, and round them up. in that way.
[00:12:36] nicole: And then with
[00:12:36] Jolene: So.
[00:12:37] nicole: which is interesting is that George W. Bush, he deported 2 million people time, and in this, in c om, he was also, he was focused on, you know, arresting that had criminal records, but. In his C Om. It was about to the local authorities [00:13:00] and the jails, this is up to you, it's voluntary, but we would like you to share it with the federal government. And then when Obama went into office, liberal Democrat Obama, he took C Om he made it mandatory he deported 3 million. immigrants in his eight years more than any other president in the history of presidents, this liberal was flabbergasted. I
[00:13:32] Jolene: Really,
[00:13:34] nicole: I was like, what? Because in the liberal
[00:13:38] Jolene: you had not heard that before?
[00:13:39] nicole: well, Josh was like, you know, the deporter in chief, and I didn't, I don't remember hearing that. But what's wild is that, what I do remember is that. You know, and, and he's a little more complicated because he believed he, he created the DACA program, the Dreamers Act,
[00:13:58] Jolene: Yep. Yep.
[00:13:58] nicole: helped [00:14:00] 750,000 people stay in the country, but also deported. they were people with a criminal record.
[00:14:07] Jolene: Criminals. Yep. Yeah, yeah,
[00:14:09] nicole: the other thing about Ira, IRA that I found fascinating that before 1996 when they would deport criminals, it was criminals, murderers, like major criminals.
[00:14:21] Jolene: yeah. Right.
[00:14:22] nicole: 1996, the Ira IRA act, criminal could be, if you shoplifted, you know, something very minor and it was retroactive. Which I
[00:14:34] Jolene: Oh, wow.
[00:14:35] nicole: I
[00:14:35] Jolene: I didn't know that.
[00:14:36] nicole: So that someone like, you know, I don't know, they'd shop shoplifted a candy bar in 1974 and
[00:14:44] Jolene: they were 18? Yeah.
[00:14:47] nicole: IRA, IRA, and all of a sudden in, you know, 1998, they get a traffic violation and they see, oh, in 1974 you stole a candy bar, [00:15:00] you are out.
[00:15:00] Jolene: So here's what I think is interesting too, is that, I guess this was, was under, uh, George Bush if you are arrested by local police, 'cause this is where I kind of really wanna break it down to what does make sense? Because if you are arrested by local police and you get fingerprinted. your fingerprint goes into a national database. So it goes to the FBI, the DHS ice. and then at that point, you, local police get to decide whether you want to have a detainer, if you want to keep this person, under, surveillance or not even under, under, um, keep them.
[00:15:44] nicole: It's called an ice hold.
[00:15:46] Jolene: Uh, on hold. Yeah. But so you've, but you keep them in jail,
[00:15:50] until the feds can get there and, um,
[00:15:53] nicole: Well,
[00:15:54] Jolene: and take them in for,
[00:15:55] nicole: our audience know, to be clear, like sanctuary cities, [00:16:00] in a sanctuary city, if they are arrested for anything, fingerprinted.
[00:16:07] Jolene: right.
[00:16:08] nicole: right. This,
[00:16:09] Jolene: Yep.
[00:16:09] nicole: sanctuary cities. I think especially maybe, well maybe in all media, but there is a, a misconception of what a sanctuary city is and what it can do.
[00:16:19] It can't do a lot. Part of the sanctuary cities, when people, when Obama was deporting so many people when o and I'm gonna say it again. When Obama was deporting so many people, that's when the city started, implementing policies. was during Obama. got exacerbated Trump won when he did the Muslim ban. But I just want our audience to understand our liberal, beloved Democratic President Obama, he was the one that deported more people than any other president [00:17:00] before now. Right?
[00:17:01] Jolene: so let's talk about why do you want to be a sanctuary city? And, and I found this fascinating because I've never understood it. Never have I, I just don't get why, if you've got a criminal. Why you don't want to prosecute them. And, you know, or, or especially, you know, the, the really hardened criminals that have, have a rap sheet, you know, and all that.
[00:17:26] Like, why? I don't understand why, but here's, and I think this is really interesting because local police want to be a resource for the, their communities.
[00:17:37] nicole: I learned
[00:17:37] Jolene: And so. And I didn't, I've never thought about it this way. if you are in, let's say, um, a neighborhood that is predominantly Hispanic and you, are, uh, an undocumented
[00:17:51] immigrant, you don't want to say, I know that my neighbor, has killed someone. I mean, let's take worst case scenario. I [00:18:00] know that he's a murderer. I know it, I saw it, I have evidence of it, all that, but if you are undocumented, you are scared to go to the police.
[00:18:06] 'cause you don't want to be, deported. So there is a sense from a local police department that their job is to protect and serve and they're not protecting those communities if they're at risk of, of being deported because they're never going to, report a crime.
[00:18:24] So then you have to ask yourself, okay, so is it. Which crime is it? That's better. You know, I mean, is it, is it, is it better to have information that you know that there is a, a murder suspect that lives across from you, but you don't wanna say anything, or that you risk being deported because you've done the right thing?
[00:18:47] nicole: and this is where I think there are some bipartisan things that we could actually, if we just down the temperature made an agreement with each other that we weren't gonna scream and [00:19:00] shame each other and ask
[00:19:01] Jolene: Yep.
[00:19:01] nicole: questions There's a lot of us that are asking the exact same questions and
[00:19:07] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:07] nicole: opposite side of the aisle
[00:19:09] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:19:10] nicole: because no one wants to be in a community with people that are committing murder,
[00:19:16] Jolene: Right.
[00:19:17] nicole: right? and I think a lot of people who voted. Even Hispanic people who voted for Trump, who said, oh, it's just going to be the quote unquote criminals.
[00:19:32] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:33] nicole: you know, that's up for definition. Yes, you broke the law. You could be called a criminal, but that's not what they thought were voting for.
[00:19:42] Jolene: Yeah. Right, right.
[00:19:43] nicole: So I also, as a liberal and as a, that I. Get offended by the left telling me how I'm supposed to feel about this, because. [00:20:00] I don't totally know how I feel about this. when I look at it on from a lens of the 1980s and Reverend John Fife and he's looking at it from a humanitarian place. I'm not Christian, but I, I love people. I would be like, oh my gosh, we have to help these human beings. I
[00:20:23] Jolene: But you gotta get rid of the criminals.
[00:20:25] nicole: I also totally just don't underst, like the system is so broken.
[00:20:29] Jolene: Right.
[00:20:30] The immigration system is broken. everybody agrees with that, so, so then I think we have to look, number one is, is immigration a federal issue? Because here's the other thing that I kept thinking about as I was reading stuff, okay. So obviously local, if you just think about how law enforcement works,
[00:20:50] nicole: Yeah.
[00:20:50] Jolene: you're a criminal,
[00:20:52] You get arrested on suspicion of rape.
[00:20:55] nicole: Okay.
[00:20:56] Jolene: And, um. You [00:21:00] get detained by the local police officer who then, decides, you know, you post a bail or I mean, get to be released if you post a bail. At that point though, the local police have to decide whether they want to detain him, and alert ice to come get him
[00:21:19] nicole: Well,
[00:21:20] Jolene: or to let him go.
[00:21:21] nicole: they put a, they put their fingerprints on. It goes to the national database, to the FBI.
[00:21:27] FBI will be like, oh, this person is an illegal migrant. Then that, that dings to ice. And then ice goes, hold on and calls local government and says, we'd like to place an ice hold, which is a 48 hour detainment so that they can come and get them.
[00:21:43] Jolene: Yep.
[00:21:44] nicole: And like
[00:21:45] Jolene: Yep.
[00:21:45] nicole: era it was, it was voluntary, but people worked together. More so than now. ICE is also, as we've talked about, much more militarized than it was back in the day. Like what you [00:22:00] brought up about community and being a local cop and trying to create a place where people feel safe to come
[00:22:08] Jolene: Yep.
[00:22:09] nicole: a cop and say, I need your help, blah, blah, blah. of a sudden that situation has been completely, um, diminished and I think from being a person on the left, Joe, that. It's almost like we're not allowed to say, well, yeah, that rapist should get deported, because has become such a monster to most of us that we're just like, get away. Like it be,
[00:22:43] Jolene: Right.
[00:22:44] nicole: so skewed that they, there can be nothing bipartisan about it.
[00:22:48] Jolene: And that it has to be black and white, that there's no gray area, and there is a lot of gray area in this, in this subject,
[00:22:54] and Republicans take a look at, you know, these crimes that are being committed by, you know, repeat [00:23:00] offenders who have been arrested and then let go, and then they get rearrested and they get let go and, and they're just going, you know, I think that's, that is where the sanctuary cities for Republicans are.
[00:23:13] Like, it just doesn't make sense there, is it? Therein lies, I think the biggest issue and the biggest. Um, issue that Republicans have with San Sanctuary cities is how can you have repeat offenders out on the street and then they kill somebody? I mean, you know, so is the, is the first three crimes? Those are, okay.
[00:23:33] I mean, that was burglary, or that was larceny, or that was, you know, possession of a firearm or whatever. But then the, the fourth one is murder. And so, you know,
[00:23:43] nicole: don't even understand the law. I don't understand why they're not in jail. That's the part I don't get. I don't get, 'cause I work with kids or I have worked with kids here in New York City and they can't post bail. They're stuck in bail. They're stuck. I'm sorry. They're stuck in jail. For [00:24:00] months, years, they're just stuck in jail. They, you know, shoplifted a backpack. Now some kids did way worse, but a lot of them, they just, that, why are they in jail?
[00:24:10] Jolene: there's been such, so much backlash against a lot of, um, prosecutors for, for giving bail to people that maybe shouldn't be out on, on Bond. You know, and I mean, I think that's the other thing is they feel like it is a. An unfair advantage to those who are the most disadvantaged in our society to make them pay bail, post post bail to, in order to get out.
[00:24:34] And so those with money get to get out and those with no money, they don't get out. And so I think a lot of prosecutors are saying, well let's, let's lower that standard for everybody. And so they're letting more people out and I think it's also a backlog of prosecutors. I mean, I think that's where we are too.
[00:24:51] There's a backlog, you know, in the system of prosecutors and judges and hearing and being able to hear cases. So again, it's [00:25:00] a part of the entire system that is screwed up right now.
[00:25:04] nicole: you know, in theory, I absolutely the idea of a sanctuary city. In theory, I love that there's a place that someone that is in danger can come and be safe and be protected. In theory. I really love that. What I'm finding more and more is that there's a lot of people that it's, it's like we talk about this all the time.
[00:25:31] In almost every subject you have people that take, that, make it shitty for the rest of us. They just, they take advantage. They act poorly. They, they're violent, they're whatever it is like. The extremists as we talked
[00:25:48] Jolene: Yeah. Right, right.
[00:25:49] nicole: So, so here you have a, you know, a group of, undocumented migrants who are seeking shelters, seeking a [00:26:00] place to take a deep breath, and they're in this city, and then some people are committing murder and robbing and stealing, and Just muddying the water so that, no. Then it's like, what is the sanctuary city? And I, I guess what I wanna say to you, Jolene, is that there are things about this that I agree with you. and I would say that there are a lot of liberal democrats that don't think it's okay that. People that are criminals, people that are committing rape, committing murder are being let go and protected in a sanctuary city. I, that is to me, antithetical of what a sanctuary city is supposed to be.
[00:26:49] Jolene: with that thought, if you were an undocumented immigrant who was a criminal, where would you go?
[00:26:55] nicole: Sanctuary city,
[00:26:57] Jolene: Right. So then, I mean, I, I, [00:27:00] I think you're just, you're, you're.
[00:27:01] nicole: but it's also like
[00:27:02] Jolene: You're perpetuating the problem.
[00:27:05] nicole: it's so extreme. It's so black and white as you were saying, because I would like the United States to be a sanctuary city, like in theory that everyone would come and they would feel, that this is a place that they can towards citizenship in a fair, And clear manner, that they would be supported by their neighbors. That this is a place that they can dream. maybe that's very corny, but to me, that is the American dream.
[00:27:38] Jolene: That's not corny. And it's exactly what Trump said when he said, well, let's get rid of, and this was early on, um, and it may even have been in his first term when he said, let's get rid of the worst of the worst and let's welcome those who want to come to America and get good jobs.
[00:27:56] Get a good age, education, give back to the community. [00:28:00] I want the smartest, you know, the smartest people who have the biggest ambition and the drive and I mean, isn't that what we all want? we want people to come here and welcome them with open arms who want to make this a better country because there's no doubt we can all agree.
[00:28:19] Well, no, I don't think we all agree, but I think us. The ones of us with a common sense and a good heart, agree that having, people of different nationalities makes us better. As long as you are wanting to be an American and not change America to be like the place that you came from. You know, and I, you know, I think we talked about this for our, conversation about immigration was, don't come to America. And then, and then start waving your Mexican flag. No, if you wanna come to America, we love your culture and we love to learn about you, but be proud to be an American and don't try to make us [00:29:00] Pakistan.
[00:29:00] nicole: too many, too many things happening here because you had me at Hello until you said what Trump said. Because in my opinion. Trump is a showman. He said that stuff to get also Hispanics to vote for him. And then In this, uh, term, like with the way ice is being, itself To me, there's nothing American about what's going on here. It's, it's like turned on its head. it's all about quotas and in my opinion, this is all Stephen Miller. It's not even Trump, it's Stephen Miller. even though he's a Jew, he's Jewish, he wants us to be like as white and. I don't even understand that person at all. and I don't know what American means. I understand what you're saying that you, you want people to come and embrace this country, [00:30:00] but I do like that people like keep their culture, that they,
[00:30:05] Jolene: Yeah, no, I agree.
[00:30:06] nicole: which is a little
[00:30:07] Jolene: I.
[00:30:08] nicole: is when people come here and they don't,
[00:30:10] Jolene: They want us to be a socialist nation or they want us to be, um, they, they don't like our,
[00:30:18] nicole: like what, when we did the ex, the extreme issue, uh, episode, when. these American people are, um, waving Hezbollah and Hamas flags saying Death to America, that seems a little bit like, seriously, why are you here? Uh, unless you're planning
[00:30:37] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:30:37] nicole: pulling out a gun and killing all of us.
[00:30:40] I like, I, I doesn't make any sense.
[00:30:43] Jolene: So, okay, so here's where we can agree, we can agree That immigration laws that I, I think the overarching argument with sanctuary cities is immigration laws have to be, completely gutted and we've got to get to a place where [00:31:00] we are welcoming those who are, um, persecuted in their own countries and they don't feel safe, and that they can come and have a welcoming place and we have a system.
[00:31:12] That allows them to come here and work and get educated and, live the American dream because we, you and I were blessed to be born in this country. I mean, there's no doubt about it. And if we were born in another country, we would have other issues.
[00:31:30] nicole: yeah, I feel like. That Ira IRA act really screwed stuff up, in my opinion. when you threaten people by, been here over a year, you have to leave and you can't come back for 10 years. I just
[00:31:46] Jolene: Mm.
[00:31:46] nicole: I wanna redo this stuff I think it, it's important to earn your citizenship. but I don't think it needs to be punitive. I guess.
[00:31:59] Jolene: And [00:32:00] I would agree.
[00:32:01] nicole: that's
[00:32:01] Jolene: That I think our, that's where we have to start with our immigration laws. Like we can't, we can't just deport everybody and start fresh. Let's, let's make some, some rules of who, who is in here right now. how do we get them to be citizens? what is a path to citizenship look like?
[00:32:20] What do you have to do?
[00:32:21] nicole: Right.
[00:32:22] Jolene: I, I, I mean.
[00:32:22] nicole: I know this would never work, but a girlfriend of mine was telling me recently, and I have not read about it, forgive me if I get this wrong, she was telling me that in Spain that they passed a law that whomever was there is now there. obviously it would not work in this country.
[00:32:39] It's too big. There's too many people that have crossed the border. But part of me was like, God, some sort of workable thing. So that we just sort of stop the fear and the hiding I'm going to just put out there that I would think that most Republicans aren't psyched about [00:33:00] how ICE has been treating people and going in the streets and down the doors and you know, we all see the viral videos that, and, I think what's difficult sometimes is that liberals. Make the assumption, I think liberal media also, highlights this to make us angry at you, that you guys revel in this and I know that you don't. I know that you don't it. And so I feel like if we just sort of took a deep breath, honestly, it's not kumbaya, but like, hey. I understand that it's really important to you, Jolene, and your conservative base, that people that are committing crimes should not be here. I don't disagree with that. Like we can
[00:33:54] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:33:54] nicole: there like, so
[00:33:55] Jolene: Yep.
[00:33:56] nicole: fix this
[00:33:58] then maybe we can talk about, [00:34:00] hey. If so, like can we look at the population that's been here for 20 years? How do we figure out a way, saying easy breezy, you're here Cool, cool, cool. Maybe it's steps to figure out how to stay. They're paying taxes already, which is very confusing to me.
[00:34:22] Jolene: Well, to a degree, yeah, I, they're paying some taxes.
[00:34:25] nicole: taxes, some people have, depending on the states they're in, they have driver's license, like they're contributing people. So how do we work together so that that Democrats and Republicans can go, well, I can get, that makes sense to me. So that we just sort of like, okay, we versus as you said, throw 'em out and start over.
[00:34:47] Jolene: Because I would bet every single one of us knows someone
[00:34:51] who is from another country and whether they got here legally or illegally,
[00:34:56] nicole: I feel like we are not allowed to talk about this [00:35:00] we're allowed to scream at each other about it. We're allowed to point fingers and call names, but we're not allowed to actually, Hey, I don't want a criminal here either.
[00:35:13] Jolene: Right.
[00:35:14] nicole: I like, I, but I, but I don't want and Joe, like really, I understand that they're, they crossed the, I get it.
[00:35:23] I understand it's illegal, but what can we, can we figure something out? Can we
[00:35:27] Jolene: Right. Yep.
[00:35:28] nicole: laws or something? A program?
[00:35:31] Jolene: I also think then tying this back to sanctuary cities is we, is the local government, the local police, they do work with an with federal agency, the the FBI, the DEA, the A TF, when, certain circumstances warrant that, and then those federal agencies. Right. So those federal agencies come in when, when they're needed by the local police.
[00:35:59] So [00:36:00] it's not like it's, it's unheard of, and it's not like they don't do that in, in other, federal laws. it's something that I think the sanctuary cities has, has been deemed a, such a negative thing for Republicans. as a, a safe haven or a harbor for illegal criminals.
[00:36:20] And unfortunately, again, it's not black and white.
[00:36:24] nicole: I mean, and that's the thing is that I think, the sanctuary movement of the eighties came from really lovely place.
[00:36:35] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:36:36] nicole: and just like everything it seems at this point, everything is partisan. the bottom line is everything that, the left thinks that a sanctuary city is, is not true. It's just not true. They have, they've put in some policies, but it's, there's nothing is set in stone in a sanctuary city. still can be deported. They still like, [00:37:00] they still get F People still get arrested. They still get fingerprinted. They still go to the FBI database. it's whether that local government is going to work with the federal government.
[00:37:10] And I actually understand Jolene, why Republicans are like, if you don't work together, how is this gonna work?
[00:37:18] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:37:19] nicole: I get that. What I don't like is ice. I don't like what ICE has become. I understand what
[00:37:27] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:37:27] nicole: and now that I've done all this, this research, I, I've seen how it's changed and I also think that a lot of Republicans are not psyched about what ICE has become. how do we. Talk to each other. How do we break it down and say, okay, without like losing our shit on each other. Every time we talk about immigration, sanctuary, cities,
[00:37:52] Jolene: and unfortunately, as I've said, 1500 other times, as long as Trump is president, [00:38:00] I don't think it's gonna get fixed because people will say, Nope, not gonna help him. And I don't think anybody would think that what he's doing is genuine. You know, I, I, I mean, he could, he could probably come out with some policy and people would find fault in it.
[00:38:17] nicole: Yeah. It's, it's hard to. It's hard to trust him. I mean, I, we've talked about it many times in the podcast that there are times when I've tried to shout out some things that he's done that I think are good, and he'll just shoot himself in the foot. Like the
[00:38:34] Jolene: Yep, totally.
[00:38:35] nicole: mouth and you're just like, Hmm.
[00:38:38] Jolene: But as we've also talked about, Congress is in charge of making laws, so how about congress?
[00:38:44] nicole: Congress.
[00:38:46] Jolene: Find a bar bipartisan committee to be able to work together and change our immigration laws.
[00:38:54] nicole: stand up. You guys are supposed to be the biggest, branch, by the way. And [00:39:00] right now you small. You are small. Even the, even the justices are like, they're standing up to their own situation. They're finding their voice.
[00:39:14] Jolene: Don't you, don't you love that?
[00:39:15] nicole: I do, I do. I love it. on the, out on the outward appearances, you would think, oh, she's not a Coney Barrett person.
[00:39:23] She's not a Kavanaugh person. She's not a Gorsuch person. And I'm not, but I really appreciate when they are and they hold their, you know, they're, they're nuanced. Everybody's nuanced.
[00:39:36] so you have a,
[00:39:37] Jolene: okay.
[00:39:38]
[00:39:43] Jolene: Would you rather live in a city where I am your mayor or a liberal who has the exact same values as you, is the mayor?[00:40:00]
[00:40:04] nicole: I want you to be the Americas. Be fun.
[00:40:06] Jolene: Yay.
[00:40:07] nicole: Um, listen, that's not totally fair because it's you. So I'm gonna pick you. but this city is tough. This city is really tough. I don't think liberals do the best job here. Uh, I don't necessarily think, think conservatives do the best job here either. I think this city is a beast and I think it needs to be run like a business. I really do.
[00:40:41] Jolene: so Trump, you think Trump should run for mayor of New York City?
[00:40:45] nicole: to me, listen, I've lived here a long time and I knew Trump before and this is not gonna make my conservative, the conservative audience happy. But he was not the best businessman and he lost a lot of money back and forth, back and forth. [00:41:00] He's ton, he's super rich now, but at the time, no, I would not trust him. I
[00:41:04] Jolene: He's super rich now 'cause he is president and he's making a lot of money.
[00:41:09] nicole: Mark Cuban would be a great mayor.
[00:41:12] Jolene: Oh,
[00:41:13] nicole: Like he's got serious business acumen. He
[00:41:17] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:41:18] nicole: has that, um, cost plus drugs, like he's, for which, which
[00:41:22] Jolene: Hmm. Yeah.
[00:41:23] nicole: cost plus drugs, uh, where you can, well there's a bunch of drugs that you can buy through his site that is way cheaper. Um, so he's,
[00:41:33] Jolene: Okay.
[00:41:34] nicole: about lots of people, um, and helping people, but he also has a great business mind. So
[00:41:42] Jolene: Well, to be fair, I would not want to be mayor of New York. Like I'm thinking like Lampe,
[00:41:49] nicole: You wanna
[00:41:49] Jolene: like
[00:41:50] nicole: of Lampe?
[00:41:52] Jolene: of like Blue Eye, Missouri,
[00:41:54] nicole: people are in Lampe?
[00:41:56] Jolene: I think like 400, so,
[00:41:59] nicole: you know, [00:42:00] have 'em, cook 'em, cook 'em a little picnic
[00:42:03] Jolene: mm-hmm.
[00:42:03] nicole: barbecue in the back,
[00:42:04] Jolene: city council meetings would be so fun. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Our city council meeting is gonna be out on the boat this week. Yeah. Um, no. Here's the other reason that I am glad that you picked me because I would think that we would have fun together. Like, I would make you like my chief of staff, and so
[00:42:24] nicole: We'd
[00:42:25] Jolene: then people would get a Democrat and a Republican.
[00:42:28] Again, it's uh, I don't want, no, not New York.
[00:42:31] nicole: Lampe would be interesting. I hope that your, um, conservative people would be kind to your
[00:42:37] Jolene: Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't know how that would work.
[00:42:42] nicole: How
[00:42:42] Jolene: have to go somewhere.
[00:42:44] nicole: New Orleans?
[00:42:46] Jolene: Hmm. How about Pleasantville? Pleasantville, Iowa?
[00:42:50] nicole: Oh,
[00:42:51] Jolene: Now there would be like that would, I think we could work.
[00:42:54] nicole: Would you rather be the head of ice or be the [00:43:00] speaker of the house
[00:43:04] Jolene: Oh, speaker of the house.
[00:43:08] nicole: and why?
[00:43:08] Jolene: because I just, I feel like I could affect so much change like ice. Okay. I mean, once you got ice figured out, then you're kind of done. I mean, I think you could, you could whip that into shape. You could whip them.
[00:43:22] nicole: Well, maybe then you should be the head of ice and just get it done,
[00:43:25] Jolene: I was just gonna say, can I do both? I like, just let,
[00:43:28] nicole: okay?
[00:43:29] Jolene: go, you and I together, go in there and figure out ice, how that would take us, like 10 days. And then,
[00:43:34] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:35] Jolene: um, and then although I really like Tom Holman, I kind of feel like he's a good person for that job. So, I mean, I thought he was doing a really good job.
[00:43:48] But anyway,
[00:43:48] nicole: better than Christie Nome.
[00:43:50] Jolene: Certainly better than Christie Nom. Uh, but yeah, I would love to be speaker of the house
[00:43:56] nicole: Will you
[00:43:56] Jolene: and decide
[00:43:57] nicole: shape for us? Please,
[00:43:59] Jolene: gonna take [00:44:00] a lot longer.
[00:44:02] nicole: Listen. Just whip them into shape.
[00:44:06] Jolene: What if I was speaker? But you could be
[00:44:11] nicole: I
[00:44:12] Jolene: a majority leader in the senate.
[00:44:15] nicole: Ooh, I get to
[00:44:15] Jolene: Because then think of all the stuff. Yeah. Think of, well think we could get so much stuff done.
[00:44:20] nicole: get stuff done. I mean, real stuff,
[00:44:24] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:44:25] We're not announcing our candidacy quite yet, but stay tuned
[00:44:31] nicole: Yes. Yes. Uh,
[00:44:32] Jolene: and if you've stuck around to this podcast, to this long
[00:44:35] nicole: listen. God
[00:44:36] Jolene: and, and you can be. You can be on our campaign staff.
[00:44:41] nicole: that's right. can be on our campaign staff. thank you Jolene. I was definitely nervous about this one and it's always interesting and it's always really, I just, you teach me stuff. and then I realized I don't really [00:45:00] have anything to be afraid of that if you just,
[00:45:02] Jolene: I'm so glad that, that we're vulnerable enough with each other that we can say without having to be like, oh, I've got this figured out and I'm right and you're wrong. I mean, you know, we're like, okay, this is how I feel. I.
[00:45:16] nicole: and I think that that's, That's a really good point and a really good for anyone listening and watching that if you have a friend or a family member that, um, you're afraid to talk to, that vulnerability is power.
[00:45:36] If you have someone stuck in their ways, don't.
[00:45:38] And that's the other thing, don't, don't ever expect you're gonna change someone's mind. Just
[00:45:43] Jolene: Yep.
[00:45:43] nicole: listen. And I think and get curious, and I think step by step, that's how we heal.
[00:45:51] Jolene: Amen, sister.
[00:45:54] nicole: All right, girl.
[00:45:54] Jolene: if you would please subscribe and like, and comment and share. [00:46:00] Uh, we would love that. That helps us a lot.
[00:46:02] nicole: All right. I'll see
[00:46:04] Jolene: Thanks everybody.
[00:46:05] nicole: Bye.
[00:46:05] Jolene: Okay. Bye-Bye.
[00:46:07]
