U.S. Surrogacy and Birthright Citizenship: When Money Writes the Rules
When does “building a family” start looking like an industry and who gets protected when it does?
Surrogacy in the United States is one of those topics that forces you to hold multiple truths at once. The U.S. has become a major global destination for surrogacy, in part because the rules are inconsistent and, in many places, surprisingly permissive. In other words, the industry has grown faster than the guardrails. That creates a system where the wealthy get options, the vulnerable take on risk, and everyone pretends a contract is the same thing as protection.
In many countries, international surrogacy is restricted or illegal. In the U.S., it’s treated more like an industry—complete with agencies, contracts, lawyers, and pricing tiers.
The 14th Amendment exists for a reason: to guarantee birthright citizenship and protect people from being treated as permanent outsiders. It’s one of the most important promises America ever made.
But here’s the hard question: what happens when a right designed to protect the vulnerable becomes a tool for the powerful?
If wealthy foreign nationals can use U.S. surrogacy to ensure their children are born on American soil, then citizenship starts to look less like a shared national principle and more like something that can be purchased if you have enough money and the right legal team. That should bother people across the spectrum, even if they disagree on immigration more broadly.
The answer isn’t to demonize babies or parents. Children are not political weapons. But it is fair to ask whether we’ve created a system where money can effectively buy access to American citizenship while ordinary families can’t buy access to basic healthcare.
If we’re worried about foreign influence, why would we ignore a pathway that could create U.S. citizens at scale through a loosely regulated market? We can debate motives all day, but the vulnerability is obvious: a system with high stakes and low oversight invites exploitation.
When surrogacy becomes a business at scale, the power imbalance matters. The intended parents often have money, legal representation, and social status. The surrogate may have financial pressure, limited bargaining power, and fewer protections if something goes wrong - medically, emotionally, or legally.
Pregnancy is not a casual service. It’s a serious medical event. It carries risk. It changes bodies. It can change lives. So if we’re going to allow this industry to operate, the bare minimum is robust protection for the women doing the carrying and clear, enforceable standards that prioritize the well-being of the child.
That means questions nobody wants to ask out loud:
What happens if a surrogate’s health is at risk and the contract pressures her to continue?
What happens if the baby has medical complications and the intended parents back out?
What happens if the surrogate is treated like an employee but without employee rights?
What happens when the “choice” is driven by financial desperation?
This is where we actually meet in the middle as a Liberal on one side and a Conservative on the other: regulation isn’t anti-family. It’s pro-accountability.
You can support surrogacy as a path to parenthood and still believe it needs guardrails. You can believe in bodily autonomy and believe women shouldn’t be treated like rentable wombs. You can believe in birthright citizenship and believe we shouldn’t create a marketplace that turns it into a perk for billionaires.
Other countries are already tightening their approach. The U.S. doesn’t have to copy anyone else’s model, but pretending this is fine as-is feels like willful blindness.
So What Now?
We’re not pretending this issue has simple answers. It doesn’t. Surrogacy sits at the intersection of infertility, LGBTQ+ family-building, women’s rights, global inequality, immigration, and geopolitics.
If you’re listening to this and feeling torn, good. That means you’re thinking. The goal isn’t to land on a team. The goal is to ask better questions, especially about who benefits, who bears the risk, and who gets protected when things go sideways.
And if there’s one thing we’ll say with our whole chest: children should never be treated like commodities, and women should never be treated like infrastructure.
If this topic hits a nerve for you whether you’re pro-surrogacy, anti-surrogacy, or somewhere in the middle, talk about it. Write to your representatives. Ask what laws exist in your state. Ask what protections surrogates have. Ask what happens when contracts collide with medical reality. Because the only way this changes is if more people are willing to look at it without flinching.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Mo News Story: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mo-news/id1629167542?i=1000741330349
Instagram Reel: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSWnB_xjRZc/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
Good for the Soul
ItsSozer (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/itssozer/?hl=en
Episode Graphic Photo Credits:
Pavel Durov photo: Pavel Durov Instagram
Peter Thiel photo: Gage Skidmore from Surprise, AZ, United States of America, CC BY-SA 2.0 via Wikimedia Commons
Xu Bo photo: Weibo
Elon Musk photo: The Royal Society, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons
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[00:00:00] nicole: She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money, and we say, that's exactly what friends should be talking about. Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud. Welcome.
[00:00:21] Jolene: Welcome to, we've got to Talk. It is so good to see you. Happy 2026.
[00:00:27] nicole: Happy 2026. this is gonna be a very interesting topic today. I'm so fired up. I'm not sure what's gonna happen. There might be a listen, Linda, there might be a warning for my swearing because I'm really, uh, keyed up about this subject and I'm very curious to hear what my friend Jolene has to say about this subject. Uh, we both listened to the same MO News podcast that we've recommended this independent news source to you before. We will put this particular [00:01:00] episode in the show notes so that you can hear the, um, that we're talking about that spurred this EPIs, our current episode about, billionaires and us surrogacy.
[00:01:13] Jolene: You know, and, and listener and viewer. You've, you've heard us talk about MO News before. It's a really unbiased, kind of a, a straightforward podcast in the morning. It's 45 minutes. Um, that gives you all the headlines and then it kind of reads between the lines and, and gives you a little more in depth, uh, information.
[00:01:33] It's, it's really good. And Nicole and I both love it because it's very unbiased
[00:01:37] as we love to advocate as well. And when this article came out, I sent it to Nicole and, and, and she almost
[00:01:44] nicole: Yeah,
[00:01:45] Jolene: simultaneously sent it to me and said, we've got to talk about this. it's so interesting because for me, my, my knee jerk reaction to this story was,
[00:01:55] nicole: Maybe we
[00:01:56] Jolene: um,
[00:01:57] nicole: the story is since they haven't heard it. What? What [00:02:00] Before
[00:02:00] Jolene: oh yeah, I guess we're,
[00:02:01] nicole: Right.
[00:02:02] Jolene: are getting that cart ahead of this horse. so it's about surrogacy in the US and how um, there are a lot of international and specifically Chinese, billionaires that are, um, having a lot of kids through surrogacy, surrogacy programs in the United States so that their children then have dual citizenship.
[00:02:29] They're born in the US. They're then taken back to China where they then get, um, dual citizenship. And the thought being, then they, they raise these kids and have dual citizenship for, for both countries. it was so interesting to me to hear this because one of the things that Trump did a year ago, one of the, his first executive orders was challenging the 14th Amendment, which is [00:03:00] birthright citizenship.
[00:03:01] And I believe that Trump did it to prevent I think the article, one of the articles I read was, um, talking about, Birthing tourism or something like that, or birthright tourism where women intentionally come to the United States, to give birth, uh, if you're a resident of another country because then you have a child that is then regardless of the mother and fathers, citizenship, um, that they then have a child that was born on US soil.
[00:03:30] So it is a US citizen and this was something from back in the 18 hundreds. It's an amendment to our constitution. The 14th Amendment, was really kind of geared more towards slaves, having children, um, meant to give citizenship to slave owners, to their children. So, um, now, you know, fast forward to where we are today, and it's taken on a whole new meaning.
[00:03:55] So I really think that. I mean, as, as I read [00:04:00] more about this, it's, I think we've got two different issues, but I think the Supreme Court could, I think they're going to take up the birthright citizenship, uh, 14th Amendment executive order that Trump issued, uh, this year it looks like.
[00:04:14] So, um, it, it will be interesting to see how deep they get into that and how this then affects the surrogacy, problem that, that is happening.
[00:04:24] nicole: and what I'm just finding Jolene, is that. Because we read a ton of articles. I mean, y'all can just Google a billionaire and us surrogacy and you'll get a ton articles that will come up. other than the Moan News podcast, the most interesting and in-depth articles are in the Wall Street Journal, which,
[00:04:47] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:48] nicole: if you have a friend that that subscribes to it, it's easier 'cause uh, it's, it's got a paywall.
[00:04:54] But they are fantastic deep dives into the different factions of this [00:05:00] issue, whether it be, the billionaires in the United States who are. older or too busy and want to have someone else carry their baby, but they also want to, pick and choose the kind of baby they want, and they don't really necessarily even want to raise it.
[00:05:18] But we'll get into that as well. And then there were articles about this particular Chinese billionaire, uh, ju Bo, who is a recluse except for his social media presence. And he has now I don't want even to use the word fathered. And this is stuff that we'll get into
[00:05:35] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:05:35] nicole: because he has given his sperm to these women's bodies and, and now has over a hundred children and he wants more.
[00:05:47] And what I thought was interesting, Jolene, and then there's a Russian, did you read the Russian article
[00:05:52] Jolene: Oh no.
[00:05:54] nicole: My Lord, this Russian, billionaire, [00:06:00] he was told that he had spectacular sperm. So he Yes, yes ma'am. And so
[00:06:07] Jolene: Okay.
[00:06:07] nicole: it as his, his moral duty spread his seed far and wide, far and wide, everyone.
[00:06:16] And he's got, over a hundred children in 12 countries, not counting the six children he has with three mothers of his own.
[00:06:26] Jolene: Okay,
[00:06:27] nicole: and he has proclaimed that he will share his inheritance with whoever has his DNA. So there's
[00:06:38] Jolene: so there's a benefit. Yes.
[00:06:40] nicole: But what, but I also say Jolene, is that I thought it was interesting that you went straight to the US citizenship, which I found. Part of the problem, I think it's a perfect storm, certainly in China. What,
[00:06:54] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:06:55] nicole: is that here they, here was a country that restricted their birth [00:07:00] practices for, I guess it ended in 2015. But you
[00:07:05] Jolene: Hmm.
[00:07:06] nicole: entire several generations of people that were only allowed to have one baby. And
[00:07:10] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:07:11] nicole: was an epidemic as well of Chinese girls being adopted.
[00:07:15] 'cause they didn't want girls in China. And so then they had this imbalance of so many boys and not enough girls. And now part of the research that I was doing is that some of this is revenge from that rule. That they wanna have so many babies to create these dynasties
[00:07:35] Jolene: Right?
[00:07:36] nicole: weren't allowed to have.
[00:07:38] Right. And so what's also wild is you as surrogacy is still illegal in China. It's
[00:07:44] Jolene: Yes. Yes.
[00:07:45] nicole: it's
[00:07:45] Jolene: And it is ill, and international surrogacy is actually illegal in most countries except for the United States and Ukraine.
[00:07:55] nicole: Well, UU United States is the leading global [00:08:00] surrogacy business. uh,
[00:08:02] Jolene: why do you think that is?
[00:08:06] Money.
[00:08:07] nicole: money. Yes. The whole time
[00:08:09] Jolene: It's
[00:08:09] nicole: like,
[00:08:10] Jolene: all about money and the power. Yep.
[00:08:14] nicole: one thing, Jolene, that I thought was really. enlightening or just, uh, aggravating, en raging was about this imbalance of power that you have these women that are generally, working poor,
[00:08:28] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:29] nicole: to make, you know, being promised and they're being recruited on TikTok, Instagram
[00:08:33] Jolene: Yep. Yep.
[00:08:34] nicole: And then you have these billionaires who also like run out on them. so that the, it turns out there's an agency, there's like a middle man agency and a lot of the agencies are in California. And the only
[00:08:48] Jolene: 75% are in California.
[00:08:52] nicole: and the only state that's regulates any surrogacy is New York. Nowhere else.
[00:08:57] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:08:57] nicole: Nowhere else. And so [00:09:00] the agency, the middleman gets their money when they match I'm gonna say billionaire. I know that's they match the person, the person that's going to be the parent with the surrogate mom. Is
[00:09:15] Jolene: Right?
[00:09:15] nicole: to say? So, so
[00:09:16] Jolene: Yep. Yep.
[00:09:17] nicole: gets the money then,
[00:09:19] Jolene: And somewhere between 40 and $50,000 is on average what the agency will get.
[00:09:26] nicole: and the surrogates are supposed to get, it can range between, was it 50 and 80 grand,
[00:09:33] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:33] nicole: like
[00:09:33] Jolene: Yep. Right.
[00:09:35] nicole: don't have any legal rights, like nothing. they are supposed to have all of their medical bills paid. They're supposed to have, which is extra from the 50 to 80,000.
[00:09:49] But I
[00:09:50] Jolene: Right?
[00:09:50] nicole: many stories where they had complications, they took the baby, and they're stuck with $180,000 of medical debt. And that particular woman, [00:10:00] they took her ovaries. they
[00:10:02] Jolene: An fallopian tube.
[00:10:03] nicole: fallopian
[00:10:04] Jolene: Yep.
[00:10:05] nicole: uterus. I mean, and then she lost her job because she was trying to heal, I
[00:10:10] Jolene: Yeah. I, I mean there, I, and I'm sure there are a million horror stories from this. if you look at the reason, so let, I think we should back up a little bit and look at this, um, this ju bo, his, he's a, a Chinese billionaire and, um, video gaming.
[00:10:26] nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:27] Jolene: Yeah. And, um, the, the reason for him to be to, to do this is that these children, if he impregnates an American's woman, his child then has dual citizenship because the, the woman stays in the United States, gives birth to this child.
[00:10:48] And then at a lot of times it's a, a nanny or a service that comes, gets this child out from the hospital when it is born, keeps it and cares for it until the [00:11:00] paperwork can get done for that kid to be shipped to China. But then in his mind, the kid has dual citizenship so that from a business perspective, these children then can run his dynasty forever and ever.
[00:11:14] And have, you know, the benefit of being both US and Chinese, um, citizens,
[00:11:19] The, this concept has, has quadrupled in the last five years. The had by four times in the last, um, in the last five years. And the interesting, so as we talk about, you know, follow the money and follow the power, you know that right?
[00:11:40] There is an example of of, of both things, money and power. But the interesting thing is did you read about the investments, the investment bankers? Like all of, all of these?
[00:11:54] nicole: up the, uh, the IVF clinics and
[00:11:58] Jolene: Yep.
[00:11:58] nicole: and then [00:12:00] they're
[00:12:00] Jolene: Specifically. Yes, specifically Southern California. So these Chinese investment bankers are coming in and buying up these clinics. and these are chain clinics. and, and I think we should talk about surrogacy a, a whole, but when you look at how many, um, of these surrogate clinics are actually unregulated,
[00:12:21] nicole: yes.
[00:12:22] Jolene: which is fair game as well. and they don't speak to each other. So you can have a baby from a surrogate from this agency and go down the street and have one with that agency and that, and that's the other thing. We don't know how many of these agencies actually exist. There was one,
[00:12:39] nicole: they said
[00:12:39] Jolene: there's one article that said yeah, between 115 and another one that said 1100.
[00:12:44] So, and that doesn't include the ones that are just doing, you know, private transactions, right? I mean, there's that, I mean, these are just, these are just the clinics who knows how much of this is going on, you know, privately as well.
[00:12:59] nicole: [00:13:00] Yeah, I mean, I did read an article that I'm not sure if you read, it was a Newsweek that I thought was fascinating because it came from the, it, it took the angle of is a topic that conservatives and feminists are both agreeing on. And
[00:13:18] Jolene: How about that? Yeah.
[00:13:19] nicole: I was very curious about that being you being a conservative. the topic of Cerv, surrogacy and IVF and all that is very personal
[00:13:28] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:29] nicole: in this particular article, they were talking about this woman who spoke at the UN that wants surrogacy abolished worldwide. That her feeling is that it is a commodification of women's bodies. They found, you know, higher levels of, of trafficking and you know, you're selling this, this.
[00:13:51] I would say, just my own personal opinion, my own liberal democrat personal opinion, am not necessarily interested [00:14:00] in abolishing. I am interested in regulating because I think when any of power is happening and women, you know, we've had other conversations about women and we were raised and, and I think it's a very much of a class issue. Um, and these, these people are in a disadvantaged position and are not, are being used quite frankly. And I don't think that that's mean, this is gonna sound judgy. are so many children out in the world that need love and, uh, need good parents, and I don't understand why we don't adopt more. the more we get, like in this scientific world of like ordering your baby and what color hair, and I just don't understand. I, I personally don't get it. I don't know what this has to do with [00:15:00] love or being a parent or
[00:15:02] Jolene: Can I just take this moment to point out to our listener and viewer? The liberal just said that, that it was the.
[00:15:11] nicole: I, it's, it's the liberal and that's where it's very complicated to me. I'm not a religious person. I feel like. this is a societal, like a global societal issue where we are worshiping money. We think money can make, you know, um, uh, people that are rich have different rules than the rest of us.
[00:15:32] Um, and that we are forgetting that these are, these are human beings that haven't had a choice. And there was one article that I read that I thought was really interesting about how, like, like you said, Jolene, there are these agencies that are literally agencies created to take the baby just being born from that mom delivering to said parent in another country. And that, [00:16:00] and that the trauma that that baby goes through with having no bonding the mother. and it's not like in an adoption when someone gives the baby up. This is you, this is the deal, this is, this order of
[00:16:14] Jolene: business very transactional
[00:16:16] nicole: And
[00:16:16] this is a human being that has like, even, even puppies when someone buys a puppy, right?
[00:16:23] They have to wait like eight weeks or something
[00:16:26] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:16:27] nicole: to like bond with the baby's mom
[00:16:29] Jolene: Oh, I don't know that.
[00:16:31] nicole: voiceover about babies
[00:16:32] Jolene: Oh.
[00:16:33] nicole: and bonding and I think it's called the efrin nerves.
[00:16:36] And it's that, that those are, it's the bonding between the, and, and it can happen with dads too. It's the bond in between the, the skin to skin contact
[00:16:46] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:47] nicole: And
[00:16:47] Jolene: like this
[00:16:48] nicole: zoo Xu Bo guy, he doesn't, there are like four kids that he's like, I'm too busy to even go deal with the babies So they're being raised by nannies in Irvine. I mean it's nuts.
[00:16:59] Jolene: [00:17:00] Okay. As a Catholic, we are against surrogacy. We're against IVF because life is sacred at conception, that conception has to ha happen naturally.
[00:17:14] However, me, Jolene, uh, I have seen where a sister has carried her sister's baby, and they've raised it within a family and it's the most beautiful thing. And they're, and they're good, good Catholic family. And I just can't imagine that that love and that bond, um, is, is a bad thing. So
[00:17:38] nicole: And,
[00:17:38] Jolene: know, I,
[00:17:39] nicole: agree with you. It's not that
[00:17:41] Jolene: yeah, right.
[00:17:42] nicole: that that
[00:17:43] Jolene: is a completely different situation than,
[00:17:46] nicole: I also think
[00:17:47] Jolene: than this,
[00:17:48] nicole: that regulations would be helpful. Like there were stories where we
[00:17:52] Jolene: right?
[00:17:52] nicole: they, they would do all the background checks on the, on the women that were going to be surrogates,
[00:17:58] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:59] nicole: no [00:18:00] background checks on the people that were going to be the parents. And like people, they, they assumed that they were rich and then they ran out on the bill and they had a series of bankruptcies it's, and so it's that kind of stuff. And I know we're hearing like the bad stories, that there's a lot of, very successful experiences.
[00:18:21] Jolene: Right. Right. So you, you're absolutely right. So I would say that there is, it is amazing to me that in our, in the United States where abortion is so commonplace that we don't have laws and regulations that would be related to the surrogacy, um, programs. I mean, that I, it's just, it's, it's unbelievable.
[00:18:46] nicole: do you think it's money and power? I mean, do you think it has anything to do with like people not caring about the working poor,
[00:18:54] Jolene: I don't think that we've ever, um. That we even knew [00:19:00] that this existed. You know, I don't think that we knew that there were, that you could take something so, um, beautiful as having a child and, and absolutely twist it into something like this. And, and I even get, you know, we read the, um, there was an article about a successful Silicon Valley,
[00:19:21] nicole: Yes,
[00:19:22] Jolene: executive who, you know, ha has paid, you know, who doesn't have time to have a baby.
[00:19:28] So she's paid a surrogate. fundamentally that is against my religion, but I'm also, you know, that surrogate. Went into this, knowing what she was, she was gonna carry a child for a happily married couple as far as she knew. And she was doing a favor and she was paid and she was compensated for that.
[00:19:48] And, and you look at that transaction and you go, well, I mean these are consenting adults. I mean, you know that if that's what she was,
[00:19:56] nicole: like bowed on
[00:19:57] Jolene: well then yes. Right. And then there were, then [00:20:00] there were issues because then they claimed that the surrogate mother was taking drugs and she wouldn't agree to a drug test.
[00:20:08] And I mean, again, there are so many things that are wrong with this it is amazing to me. There are not laws and regulations because of all of the things. Yeah.
[00:20:19] nicole: I think about Gavin Newsom. Gavin, you wanna be president, this is your state, my friend. There's
[00:20:26] Jolene: God.
[00:20:27] nicole: in California. I don't understand. I mean, I was I was shocked, like horrified. Not just happening. I can't believe there are no regulations at all, except in New York.
[00:20:38] I can't believe that if we're supposedly so, afraid might not be the world word, but that China is not our friend. If China is not our friend,
[00:20:50] Jolene: why the hell are we letting all these Chinese billionaires make babies in this country and then take them back to create Dynasties of children, [00:21:00] and then they, like one
[00:21:01] guy was like
[00:21:01] nicole: I want girls.
[00:21:02] I want 10 girls so that I can marry them off to Elon Musk's children. And like they're fantasizing. And I'm thinking, is this like futile Lordships, like from the 15 hundreds, what is going on?
[00:21:17] Jolene: Well, and there there's also I think, a whole faction, of trafficking, of human trafficking that's going on with these, you know, with these children and raising them in an environment to then traffic them. we're not talking about a horror movie here. This stuff is happening.
[00:21:33] nicole: stuff is happening and
[00:21:34] Jolene: So I will say
[00:21:35] nicole: Yes.
[00:21:36] Jolene: Scott, republican senator from Florida has entered a bill, um, called Safe Kids Act, and it bars foreign nationals from, from adversarial countries, from accessing the US surrogacy industry. that is great. Somebody has done something, but that is such a, a small portion of, of, you know, [00:22:00] what could be done in this,
[00:22:01] nicole: interesting,
[00:22:01] Jolene: in this whole thing.
[00:22:02] nicole: I was excited to read more about the Rick Scott bill and, um, I was ready to shout out this Republican about it. Um, there's very little, it just was introduced in November and
[00:22:15] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:22:16] nicole: uh, information. It was,
[00:22:19] Jolene: Right.
[00:22:20] nicole: got sort of, I was like, okay, great. Let's, let's start.
[00:22:24] Like, but then I, there was no, there was almost no there, there, there I was like.
[00:22:28] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:22:29] nicole: what's happening here? Are we moving forward? Do you have any
[00:22:32] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:22:33] nicole: buy-in? You know,
[00:22:34] Jolene: Right.
[00:22:34] nicole: as I was doing my own research that, you know, in the liberal world, a lot of liberals would say, you know, this is freedom.
[00:22:43] It's my body, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, y'all, isn't
[00:22:46] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:22:46] nicole: bodies because I'm pro-choice. This is frightening what's happening to these women. and you could say, you could say it's a small percentage. know, if we're gonna go, you know, here we go, [00:23:00] Jolene, like in the trans community, like we've been talking about 0.2% of the entire country.
[00:23:05] But it's been this huge issue that has been a very divisive issue in
[00:23:09] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:09] nicole: liberal world. And you could say, Hey, there's only 11,000 babies born last year, or whatever the number is. you think, well that's not that many. I'm like, actually the. We needed to start this small, like we need to get on top of this now because this is bananas.
[00:23:28] What's
[00:23:28] Jolene: But the fact that 40% of those 11,000
[00:23:32] nicole: Chinese,
[00:23:33] Jolene: from Chinese nationals,
[00:23:36] nicole: yes.
[00:23:36] Jolene: mean, that should be alarming.
[00:23:39] nicole: Well, to me, I'm just like, why? And, and maybe this is naive of me, I'm like, so why are we so mad at China if we're so willing to let them come in and make babies? Like what's real and what's not real? Because
[00:23:51] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:23:52] nicole: know, you know, being in this country, you are not your leader. You are in your country doing your thing. [00:24:00] And I would imagine that not all Chinese people are like. Xi Jing Ping. Like, I just don't, I don't buy it. Like it doesn't
[00:24:08] Jolene: Right, right.
[00:24:09] nicole: if you, if we are, you know, walking around the planet as Americans saying we gotta be wary of China,
[00:24:15] Jolene: Right. I,
[00:24:17] nicole: But what I think I'm learning from you too is it's greed,
[00:24:22] Jolene: yeah.
[00:24:22] nicole: it's power. That, that, that overrides everything. That
[00:24:26] Jolene: Yep.
[00:24:27] nicole: these women who are like, oh my gosh, I could really use $50,000 and I'm a healthy young woman and
[00:24:36] Jolene: yeah.
[00:24:36] nicole: gonna go wrong. I'm just gonna sign this piece of paper.
[00:24:39] And there's no legal action. Like
[00:24:40] Jolene: Yep.
[00:24:41] nicole: So that, so that the agency is the one that's the winner. They're using everybody then the parents get the baby. Maybe they pay the surrogate and maybe they don't. And then the surrogate. They're taking their life into their own hands. 'cause you never know.
[00:24:55] I've never been pregnant, but you've been pregnant three times. You never know. Right. You can have a [00:25:00] birth plan and it can all
[00:25:01] Jolene: Yep.
[00:25:02] nicole: go sideways,
[00:25:03] Jolene: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent.
[00:25:06] nicole: Yeah.
[00:25:07] Jolene: okay, conservatives. Here's another one I'll give to you so what if, what if you have, an illegal that is here and an
[00:25:17] nicole: an undocumented immigrant.
[00:25:20] Jolene: okay. and they are part of this surrogacy ring. They get pregnant, they're on Medicaid. We, as the taxpayers are paying for their healthcare while they're pregnant. I mean, you know, there's just, again, there, there are so many different angles to this, that, and not of them. Very few of them are right.
[00:25:44] nicole: I just don't understand how this is happening in this country yes, it might seem a small percentage like Peter Thiel has created,
[00:25:51] Jolene: Hmm,
[00:25:53] nicole: Billionaire all these men, and I'm gonna say it like this liberal lady over here is gonna say it like this. [00:26:00] All these white men are like, oh my God, the population, we gotta be, you know, it's, it's going down. We need to procreate. but Peter Thiel's, like opening IVF agencies in all of Southeast Asia places that I was just there. It's incredibly poor. They're so taken advantage of. And
[00:26:19] Jolene: hmm.
[00:26:20] nicole: and now what? Like for the good of the world?
[00:26:23] I don't understand. That's the other thing I don't understand is like all these, also, all these guys are talking about how religious they are and how many believe in God. This doesn't seem very God to me. seems very, this seems
[00:26:37] Jolene: God, it.
[00:26:38] nicole: It seems very scientific. This seems very
[00:26:40] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:26:40] nicole: It's like this is, here's the vessel.
[00:26:43] Forget that this person, that this vessel is a human being with, uh, with health and feelings and emotions. And, and I know that there were surrogates that were interviewed in these articles that we read, that were very passionate about what they do. That they believe they are [00:27:00] doing something good and I am not taking that away. I just think that we are not looking at the bigger picture as to why do we regulate all these other things and we don't regulate this.
[00:27:11] Jolene: because Let me ask you this. Will this set up a bigger discussion around what rights does that baby have
[00:27:20] nicole: Oh, well here's the, yeah, here's my thought, Jolene, was that going back to the very beginning of this conversation, we talked about the 14th amendment. as a liberal, as, forget as a liberal as, as whatever, as Nicole, this is what I'm thinking. I want us to be a separate law. the, the, um, Supreme Court is going to rule on this year, as you said, but I don't want to pick apart the 14th Amendment to allow or to put in the stuff with surrogacy. I want the surrogacy law to have its own. think there should be a federal law and
[00:27:55] Jolene: and not tie it with birthright citizenship?
[00:27:58] nicole: I think we, as you said at the very [00:28:00] beginning of this conversation, that these are two different things. I think this is an enormous issue and hey, states and everyone's into state rights, states wake up like this is not okay. why aren't we protecting our women?
[00:28:12] Why aren't we protecting these babies? If you don't wanna protect the surrogates, protect the babies because none of this makes sense to me. Everybody, if you're so pro-life, these babies are so disadvantaged. a lot of them are stuck in this weird legal limbo like, there's those, that one couple who was, who is being charged of trafficking in California, who was taking care of 20 babies and all the babies are now in foster care. I mean, it's nuts.
[00:28:43] Jolene: Okay, but don't you think that this is going to open up a whole can of worms for liberals who, who wanna talk about, you know, freedom of their bodies and, and, um, it's their choice. [00:29:00] And then aren't you getting into an issue where it's, it, it could be conflated with abortion and talking about the right. You know, when does the right of that baby start and if it is, you know, a viable life.
[00:29:16] nicole: I guess
[00:29:17] Jolene: I mean, I see it,
[00:29:18] nicole: is like is putting in safety regulations. You put in safety regulations when you
[00:29:22] Jolene: yes.
[00:29:24] nicole: Right. You, I mean, there are certain things, and I think that's come a long way because when abortion wasn't illegal and you'd have women going into back alleys and all these horrible complications, and then when abortion became legal, there were certain protocols that women would go in and never think they were gonna lose their life. and so I think liberals would get on board with let's regulate the process so that the women that are carrying these babies have some say like some legal say if, if something happens, you know, to their health or [00:30:00] the parent runs off without paying and taking the baby.
[00:30:03] And literally these women have no legal recourse. I don't know what liberal would be like. Yeah. Let her fend that for herself.
[00:30:12] Jolene: No, I agree.
[00:30:13] nicole: would listen, we're also argumentative these days. Who knows what's gonna happen. Like
[00:30:18] Jolene: I.
[00:30:18] nicole: you know, I want, I want us to get along and I want us to find some common ground.
[00:30:23] And I, and weirdly, I think you and I are in this episode.
[00:30:27] Jolene: but if Trump introduces a, if, if, if he stands on the table for this issue and, and starts, I mean, it's going to, the liberals will give him blowback no matter how great this, this idea is,
[00:30:42] nicole: want
[00:30:42] Jolene: because it was from him.
[00:30:43] nicole: I want it,
[00:30:44] Jolene: I, I, I think if they wanna get anything done,
[00:30:47] nicole: I
[00:30:47] Jolene: yeah.
[00:30:47] nicole: if Rick Scott is gonna do it or some other, I want to have this be a bipartisan bill thoughtful people getting together and, and really trying to figure out how to deal with this. Because [00:31:00] so many contradictions in this. you could get on board with, I don't want people from what adversarial countries. That could be one line the, the other part of, I want these, um, surrogates to be safe and have legal recourse.
[00:31:18] If something goes sideways, they could all be in the same group together. And they could be le, they could be liberals and, and, and conservatives together saying, Hey, like, this is an issue we all need to care about. once, once you heard these stories and were exposed to these. Billionaires who were birthing over a hundred babies from surrogates from all over the country. Like if one, there were these stories where they'd go to one surrogate and say, okay, I want 20 babies. the agency was like, give you one. And they go, okay. And then they go to 20 other to [00:32:00] like, there's no regulation.
[00:32:01] Jolene: Yeah. Right,
[00:32:02] nicole: that are like, a blessing, 20 babies. And I'm
[00:32:06] Jolene: right.
[00:32:07] nicole: are not, like, is
[00:32:09] Jolene: Cha-ching. They're getting 50 grand for each pregnancy.
[00:32:15] nicole: if you were the president, Jolene, this matter was brought to you, this was on your desk at the Oval Office and this was your number one that you wanted to work on, how, what would you want to happen?
[00:32:30] Jolene: as the president, you have to govern everybody, And so for me to say, because personally I'm a Catholic and I don't believe in IVF,
[00:32:38] nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:39] Jolene: I don't think. That, that serves everyone. Uh, ideally, yes, that would be fantastic.
[00:32:46] But I just, again, I've seen it, I've seen the good that actually comes of it, and so I could not make a law that would prohibit surrogacy. that's the reason I'm not running for president in 2028. [00:33:00] There you heard it here first.
[00:33:01] nicole: you go. But what,
[00:33:02] Jolene: Uh, no, but, uh,
[00:33:04] nicole: to you on how to do deal with this issue?
[00:33:07] Jolene: there are so many ways that I think to circumvent any laws, I mean, right. If you've got a billionaire who has gotten away with this for the last five years, you don't think that there is some way that he could do this privately, you know, that is an unregulated, I mean, this is going to happen.
[00:33:27] So, It's, it's a really difficult, um, situation because again, we go back to the 14th amendment. If a child is born on US soil, that they are automatically a US citizen regardless of their parents' citizenship.
[00:33:42] nicole: the biggest issue for you, Jolene? Is
[00:33:45] Jolene: Well, I just think that's where it starts, right? Because that's, that at that point is where all of this other starts.
[00:33:52] That's why this billionaire, this Chinese billionaire is having children in Southern California, not, [00:34:00] he's not going to Saudi Arabia. He's not going to.
[00:34:02] nicole: No, no, no. But the, but the, but the US has no regulations. That's why they're coming to the US
[00:34:09] Jolene: he wants his children to have citizen dual citizenship to the two powerhouse nations in the world because they would be unstoppable. That was one of the things that he had talked about, having dual citizenship between United States and China would give that child an advantage that no one else in the world or that, you know, very few in the world could have.
[00:34:31] And, and if you look at it, then again from a another nefarious point of view, look at the, the, um. Central American women who would come across the border to have a child late in their pregnancy. So that child is an American citizen, they are more likely to get a green card. They, the rest of the family, the mother, the father, the siblings, to get a green card than anyone else, that, that pushes them ahead of the line.
[00:34:59] So yes, [00:35:00] I think you have to start with the 14th amendment. I, I think that having a child on us land gives you automatic birthright, citizenship.
[00:35:09] nicole: But what about the women that are not being taken care of like that? There's
[00:35:14] Jolene: Oh, uh, that's absolutely, that is absolutely a problem. Uh, again, I think all the other issues stem from that, but that's the primary that.
[00:35:23] nicole: that the reason. That the US is the global leader in surrogacy is because of the fact of birthright citizenship
[00:35:34] Jolene: No, I think it's, it's because we don't have any laws. I mean, I think that's, that, that's really kind of the, we're the only developed nation in the world who doesn't have any surrogacy
[00:35:44] nicole: laws.
[00:35:45] Jolene: laws. Um,
[00:35:47] nicole: think we could start there?
[00:35:49] Jolene: yeah, because I don't know what, I guess I, I didn't research what other countries, what their laws are. I mean, are, you know, is there a limit to, you can have one child via surrogacy or three, [00:36:00] or, um, do you have to be a citizen of that
[00:36:05] nicole: and Spain have taken steps to stop surrogacy.
[00:36:09] Jolene: Completely?
[00:36:11] nicole: A lot of Western European countries are, coming to the realization that, that there's, it's become too much of a commodification. They're not necessarily, I can't speak to their specific laws, and I don't know if they're necessarily abolishing them, but they are paying attention in a way that the United States is not,
[00:36:30] Jolene: Hmm
[00:36:31] nicole: States, it's a free game.
[00:36:32] It's, it's, it's a, it's a business. It's a like multi-billion dollar business. And we are not at all looking at that. There's that there are humans involved that this surrogates involved
[00:36:44] Jolene: mm-hmm.
[00:36:45] nicole: are involved. And then what
[00:36:46] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:36:47] nicole: and all I kept thinking as I was reading it, is these babies are gonna grow up to be grownups. what are they gonna be like?
[00:36:55] Jolene: Right, right, right.
[00:36:57] nicole: they don't have parents. They don't [00:37:00] have, um, the efrin nerves. Like they don't have bonding, they don't like, and yes, I'm projecting, but this psychologically can't be the best thing for baby
[00:37:15] Jolene: Yeah. A
[00:37:15] nicole: them
[00:37:16] Jolene: percent.
[00:37:16] nicole: their birth mom as soon as that baby is born and put in the arms of total strangers to the then be maybe brought to a new country. Maybe not. 'cause a lot of these babies are in limbo, and this is me, the liberal, it's really upsetting to me. I'm like, why are we designing our babies?
[00:37:41] There is always gonna be bad people. and it can be discouraging to even like, okay, so how do we move forward? But what I think is sort of interesting about this topic, Jolene, is that I think there's a lot of room in it for Democrats and Republicans to work together, [00:38:00] come together in a way that is, for the sake of the life of the surrogate and the life of the baby. And we've never had a top, like, we've never had an issue like that until now.
[00:38:15] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:38:16] nicole: big business is taking advantage of both that woman and that baby. And so, uh, Rick Scott, I wish we knew more about this bill because there's nothing to research. I'm looking everywhere and I can't find it other than, you know, where, where it gets to be a little bit of a turnoff.
[00:38:37] It starts to go down for me, the God road. Fine, fine, fine, but I'm really concerned about all these people being taken advantage of. That's where,
[00:38:45] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:38:46] nicole: I don't think that should be a liberal or a con or, or that, that that's a liberal issue. Everyone's like, I don't know.
[00:38:52] Why wouldn't a conservative be concerned about a person's wellbeing? Like I
[00:38:56] Jolene: Right. But I think, I think the, I think the pushback is gonna be [00:39:00] from liberals who are saying it's their bodies, their right.
[00:39:03] do you think that surrogacy, the surrogacy program needs to be abolished in the US?
[00:39:09] nicole: No, I don't feel like I have the right to say someone cannot do something. Um, and as you've said many times, even though you have conflict within this topic, that you've seen some really beautiful, um, things come from surrogate families and the love and all of that, and I, I know that it serves a lot of people in a very good way.
[00:39:36] And I would never tell someone, can't do that. I wanna break the cycle of the, the power structure that there is an uneven, there's a complete imbalance of power in this situation. And here, this, this young woman who is usually not, doesn't have a lot of money, is going to use their [00:40:00] body.
[00:40:00] And that's their choice. Yes. But, there is no fine print. They have no legal recourse. And then the people, generally, this is generalization that are hiring the agency, they tend to be very wealthy and they have plenty of legal, uh, options at their fingertips. And if they're a creep, if they're a crook, then all bets are off.
[00:40:23] Like
[00:40:23] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:24] nicole: woman is screwed. Literally, or not literally, just figuratively,
[00:40:29] Jolene: she didn't even, yeah.
[00:40:30] nicole: figuratively. You know? And I'm sure that there's some surrogates that are like, I love being pregnant and I love doing this and I love helping people and I'm good for you. I'm not saying like, okay. But also from the, from the stories I've read, you are lucky. a
[00:40:48] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:49] nicole: aren't that lucky, that have had horrible things happen to them. And if
[00:40:53] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:40:54] nicole: about trafficking.
[00:40:57] Jolene: Yep. Yeah, [00:41:00] this was, there was a lot to this and I, I, I hope that we look back on this a year from now and go, wow. Uh, you know, this was something that, that was new to us, and now it is part of the conversation that we're all having. So
[00:41:17] nicole: And well, it,
[00:41:18] Jolene: I hope that's the case.
[00:41:18] nicole: to me, Jolene, that thinking about what can we
[00:41:21] Jolene: Okay.
[00:41:22] nicole: If you're listening to this episode right now, and you are in any un any state of the United States, but New York, and this is an upsetting thing for you, write your Congress person, write your senator, tell them, Hey, I have been reading about the US surrogacy and that there's no regulation.
[00:41:44] And, and, and, and tell your senator, and tell your congress person that you want action taken to make these women and these babies safe. That's what you can do. Because I think a, I think a lot of people, I, you know, the, the Wall Street [00:42:00] Journal just broke these, um, the, these stories last November. it's a fairly new business that now you're, they're finding Where things don't go very well. we are now highlighting the worst of, the worst of this scenario, right?
[00:42:17] Jolene: but, okay. But do you find it interesting though that, um, that this has not been brought to the attention by, um, either doctors or l and d departments at hospitals or, I mean, oh, labor and delivery like, like that, if this was, obviously there had to be more people that know that this is happening and why haven't the alarm bells been ringing before now?
[00:42:45] nicole: not really sure. And I also think, like you said, in the last four years, it's quadrupled, but it's,
[00:42:50] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:42:51] nicole: a small population and so maybe people, it hasn't directly affected them,
[00:42:58] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:42:59] nicole: just don't know [00:43:00] about it. And now, some of, some of the medias doing reporting and saying, whoa, like there was this, that one judge in California, that's one where the, the story broke actually was one judge in California.
[00:43:13] It was about Ju Bo
[00:43:14] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:15] nicole: he, were four embryos that he wanted to be, I guess, want released.
[00:43:24] Jolene: Fertile or, or, yeah. Yeah,
[00:43:25] nicole: And that
[00:43:26] Jolene: Or,
[00:43:27] nicole: the, yeah, I'm not sure that the
[00:43:29] Jolene: I think they're already fertilized, but he wanted them implanted or whatever. Yeah.
[00:43:33] nicole: And so that this judge in California was like, hold on, I'm seeing the same name. And the same country and the same address and the like, what's going on?
[00:43:46] And so she said no. Like she stopped and she's like, something is really wrong
[00:43:51] Jolene: Yep.
[00:43:52] nicole: And
[00:43:53] Jolene: Yep.
[00:43:53] nicole: have been the first, I can't sp I'm just, she
[00:43:56] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:43:57] nicole: like the impetus for this [00:44:00] story to
[00:44:00] Jolene: Yeah,
[00:44:01] nicole: into the national, uh, view. And I
[00:44:05] Jolene: yeah,
[00:44:05] nicole: um, I'm very curious, listener and viewer, comment, please give your ideas what you think, what you, you know, and again, I think Jolene and I are both actually kind of on the same page about, we're
[00:44:21] Jolene: yeah.
[00:44:22] nicole: that surrogacy is bad. we're not abolishing it. We, but we want some protections put in there. And I think Jolene is more. Concerned about the 14th amendment and those and those what could happen. And I'm concerned, not so much about the 14th amendment, but if we're supposed enemies of a country, why are we letting them have babies?
[00:44:43] Jolene: Oh,
[00:44:44] nicole: I don't
[00:44:45] Jolene: right,
[00:44:45] nicole: don't get it. I want Kumbaya, I want us to like be friends with the Chinese, like this makes no sense.
[00:44:54] Do you have
[00:44:56] Jolene: you.
[00:44:56] nicole: a good for the soul?
[00:44:59] Jolene: [00:45:00] I do not,
[00:45:01] nicole: Boom.
[00:45:01] Jolene: I'm so sorry.
[00:45:03] nicole: quite all right. I have one for the both of us.
[00:45:10] The handle, it's an Instagram handle I-T-S-S-O-Z-E-R. His name is Samuel Wiener and he is part of the Kindness Army. he finds, um, people all over the world that have had hard times, he tells their story as, as he's surprising them fundraises for them. And every video, every story, every person, it's, it's heartbreaking and heartwarming. It's this guy, Sam seems to be like the best of humanity and using social media for. [00:46:00] Like the best you could make it for, like, and I'm just
[00:46:03] Jolene: Oh.
[00:46:04] nicole: to share it with everybody because we need good stories. we need people who care and just do yourself a favor and subscribe to his channel and become part of the kindness Army.
[00:46:18] Jolene: Okay, good.
[00:46:19] nicole: Would
[00:46:19] Jolene: you have a, would you rather?
[00:46:21] nicole: do you? I do.
[00:46:22] Jolene: I do.
[00:46:24] nicole: like to go first?
[00:46:25] Jolene: Okay.
[00:46:26] nicole: Okay.
[00:46:31] Jolene: Would you rather have surrogacy limited to three children per father or just limited to only American citizens?
[00:46:43] nicole: Oh, that's interesting. Huh? know I'm gonna get blow back on this one. Liberal. And what, you know what? I barely swore. I think I got so
[00:46:59] Jolene: [00:47:00] I know
[00:47:00] nicole: the, all the articles that I got, all my, my swearing out.
[00:47:04] Jolene: you got Linda on high alert and then I don't know that.
[00:47:08] nicole: think I dropped even
[00:47:09] Jolene: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:10] nicole: I'm gonna say 'cause it's the same thing that I just don't understand. I would say you have to be a US citizen because I don't understand why we are letting, uh, men that we are supposedly enemies with, have babies in our country. That's what I'm gonna say.
[00:47:30] Jolene: so you're saying the issue is not so much of their citizenship, but the fact that, um, or it's not that they're having a hundred, that this
[00:47:39] nicole: that's horrible.
[00:47:41] Jolene: shoe bow is having.
[00:47:42] nicole: I think it's
[00:47:42] Jolene: As
[00:47:43] nicole: That's my opinion. I'm like, what the
[00:47:45] Jolene: Yes.
[00:47:45] nicole: having a hundred kids that he doesn't give a shit about? He doesn't even
[00:47:49] Jolene: Right?
[00:47:49] nicole: He doesn't even know them. I think it's horrible.
[00:47:52] Jolene: Yes, it is. Okay. So you're saying though, that it's, it's the citizenship that's a more important I know, [00:48:00] I know, I know. I'm trying to get you to think.
[00:48:03] nicole: you're trying to get me to think.
[00:48:04] Jolene: No, I mean, I did mean that,
[00:48:09] nicole: Okay. Okay.
[00:48:11] Jolene: I did not mean that,
[00:48:13] nicole: you're saying that like the US citizen can have like a thousand babies?
[00:48:18] Jolene: Yep. Yes,
[00:48:19] nicole: either. Listen, I'm picking zero, I'm picking C. I'm picking C
[00:48:27] Jolene: Uh.
[00:48:28] nicole: tired of all these men and the agencies having all the decisions when these Yeah, I'm done.
[00:48:35] I'm done. I think
[00:48:36] Jolene: Okay.
[00:48:37] nicole: Would you rather able to speak any language, any language with any person in the world, or be able to communicate with animals?
[00:48:51] Jolene: Oh, you know, that is a hard one for me.
[00:48:55] I'm going with animals.
[00:48:57] nicole: would,
[00:48:58] Jolene: I [00:49:00] know. I would rather be with animals than humans anyway, so I would rather talk to them
[00:49:05] nicole: it'd be really cool to actually be, be able to communicate with any person.
[00:49:11] Jolene: that, oh, that would be so cool. Like when you started the question, I'm like, okay, well I don't even care what the other part of this is because yes, that would be such a gift. And then you said communicate with
[00:49:22] nicole: with
[00:49:23] Jolene: animals, and you know what? I have like the translator on Google, so if I go somewhere, I'm just using that.
[00:49:32] I can never talk to the animals unless I have this special gift.
[00:49:36] nicole: sure that they're coming up with that too.
[00:49:38] Jolene: I hope so. Hey, hey. How about idiot? Um, Shu Bo, why don't you use your
[00:49:46] nicole: Yes,
[00:49:47] Jolene: to have us communicate with animals instead of having a hundred babies? Idiot,
[00:49:51] nicole: Listen, it's, it's crazy. It's sad. You're right. It's sad. and that's why I had to watch [00:50:00] a lot of, uh, the Kindness Army, the, the Good for the Soul. 'cause I was like, I've gotta find some
[00:50:06] Jolene: I've gotta find something.
[00:50:07] nicole: right? Because this was like, it's so dark and, and dystopic, is that the word I want?
[00:50:13] Jolene: Mm. Mm-hmm.
[00:50:14] nicole: Like, it feels very handmaid's taily. And,
[00:50:17] Jolene: Yeah.
[00:50:18] nicole: and just like, let me mate my child with that, that billionaires child and we will meet them and
[00:50:26] Jolene: Create the perfect human.
[00:50:28] nicole: like, uh, hello,
[00:50:31] Jolene: Ah,
[00:50:32] nicole: Nazi
[00:50:33] Jolene: yeah.
[00:50:34] nicole: Anyway, um, yeah, I said it. Ah, girl. This
[00:50:40] Jolene: Okay.
[00:50:40] nicole: I don't know. I don't know everybody.
[00:50:43] Jolene: I, we would love to have your feedback on this. Please contact us, let us know how you feel. We would love to see your, and read your comments on this. So, um,
[00:50:51] nicole: on how we move forward with this
[00:50:53] Jolene: yeah.
[00:50:54] nicole: that would be great. And please contact your congress person and your senator.
[00:50:58] Jolene: Yep,
[00:50:58] nicole: this is important to you. [00:51:00] Uh, it's important to us, and,
[00:51:01] Jolene: yep, yep.
[00:51:02] nicole: you, my friend, are important to me.
[00:51:06] Jolene: Thank you. And you are to me.
[00:51:09] nicole: there you go. We've got to talk. Everybody
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