Death and Dying: How Faith and Spirituality Shape Our Views on the Afterlife
We're talking about death today. Not in a morbid, depressing way, but in the honest, vulnerable way that most people avoid their entire lives. Despite being friends for nearly 40 years, Jolene and I (Nicole) realized we'd never actually talked about death, dying, and what we believe comes after. So we decided to have that conversation - the one that makes most people uncomfortable but that everyone needs to have at some point.
Why do we avoid talking about death? Is it fear of the unknown, discomfort with our own mortality, or just societal conditioning that tells us it's too dark a topic for polite conversation? Whatever the reason, the silence around death doesn't make it go away. It just means we're unprepared when it inevitably arrives.
Jolene's first real confrontation with death came when she was 16. Her friend Stacy died by suicide, a traumatic event that shattered her teenage worldview and left lasting scars. It was sudden, devastating, and completely changed how Jolene understood life's fragility. She's made sure her daughters know that nothing is ever bad enough to end your life, that there's always another option, always someone who cares.
What struck Jolene about Stacy's death wasn't just the loss itself but the unexpected ways grief manifested. Her mother showed anger amidst mourning, which confused teenage Jolene but later helped her understand that grief doesn't follow a script. People process loss in messy, complicated, sometimes contradictory ways, and that's okay.
My first encounter with untimely death was losing a college boyfriend. It was a wake-up call that life is fragile and finite, that people you love can disappear without warning. That loss propelled me to cherish life more acutely, ignited my love for travel, and imprinted on me a heightened awareness that we don't have unlimited time to do the things we want to do or say the things we need to say.
The passing of my mother was different but equally profound. Dementia is a thief that steals someone long before their actual death. I grieved my mother for years while she was still alive, watching her disappear piece by piece until the person I knew was gone even though her body remained. When she finally died, it was almost a relief - but that doesn't make the loss any less complicated or the grief any less real.
Our conversation naturally turned to how our beliefs shape our understanding of death. Jolene, as a Catholic, believes in heaven and eternal life beyond this one. She finds comfort in the idea that death isn't an ending but a transition to something better. Prayer is her anchor, and she perceives even tragedy as part of God's plan - a perspective that provides solace when life feels random and cruel.
For Jolene, believing that our paths are laid out by a higher power helps her accept life's unpredictabilities, including death. It doesn't mean she's not sad when people die or that loss doesn't hurt. It means she has a framework for understanding that pain, a belief system that offers comfort and meaning when nothing else makes sense.
My perspective isn't rooted in traditional religious doctrine. I don't necessarily believe in heaven or hell in the conventional sense. Instead, I'm fascinated by the energy that seems to accompany those who have passed - little signs like butterflies appearing at significant moments, songs playing at exactly the right time, serendipitous occurrences that feel too meaningful to be coincidence.
I don't know if those signs are actually my loved ones communicating or just my brain finding patterns and meaning where none exists. But honestly, it doesn't matter. What matters is that those moments make me feel connected to people I've lost, that they provide comfort and a sense that love doesn't end when life does.
For me, talking about death isn't morbid - it's a reminder to live each moment fully, aware that our time is finite. When you truly accept that you're going to die someday, it changes how you live. You stop putting things off. You say "I love you" more often. You take the trip, have the conversation, repair the relationship. You stop wasting time on things that don't matter.
Despite our different beliefs, Jolene and I agree on something fundamental: death is both universal and deeply personal. It's something we all have in common, yet each person's experience with death is unique, shaped by their cultural background, religious beliefs, personal losses, and individual psychology.
What's interesting is how our different frameworks lead to similar conclusions. Jolene's faith tells her to cherish life because it's a gift from God. My secular perspective tells me to cherish life because it's finite and precious. Different reasoning, same result: live fully, love deeply, don't waste the time you have.
We also agree that talking about death openly diminishes fear's hold. When you bring something out of the shadows and examine it honestly, it becomes less terrifying. Death is still sad, still difficult, still something we'd rather avoid - but it's not this unspeakable horror that we can't even acknowledge.
Having this conversation brought Jolene and me closer. We shared vulnerable stories, admitted fears, and explored beliefs we don't usually articulate. Whether you face death through the lens of religion like Jolene or from a more spiritual, worldly sense like me, the ultimate takeaway is the same: what matters is the love and connection we find with people while we're here.
The relationships we build, the kindness we show, the memories we create - that's what endures. Whether you believe those connections continue in heaven or just in the hearts and minds of the living, they're what give life meaning and what make death bearable.
We're urging you to have these conversations with people you love. Talk about death before you're forced to by crisis or loss. Discuss what you believe, what you fear, what you hope. Share your wishes for end-of-life care. Tell people what they mean to you while they can still hear it.
These conversations don't have to be heavy and depressing. They can be warm, deep, even funny. Death doesn't have to be a shrouded mystery or a topic so taboo we can't speak its name. It can be a tender, shared experience that brings us closer and helps us appreciate the time we have.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
-
nicole: [00:00:00] She's a conservative and I'm liberal, and yet we've been friends for almost 40 years. Everyone says you shouldn't discuss politics, religion, or money. And we say, that's exactly what French should be talking about.
Join us as we tackle the conversations you're having in your head, but are too scared to say out loud. Hello, Jolene.
Jolene: Hello, Nicole,
nicole: Listen, y'all, we have the very light topic today. We're gonna talk about death and dying. And I am strangely very excited to talk about this topic. Um, and I'm also very curious to know your thoughts and your experiences because even though you've been one of my closest friends for almost 40 years, we've never really talked about this
Jolene: so I think this is why it's so interesting of a topic to talk about, because it's something that every single one of us are going to experience and we don't talk [00:01:00] about it. So it's, and is it because it's scary or is it because it's so unknown? Or is it because it's, because it makes people uncomfortable.
And so we're, we're gonna dive into it and let's see where it takes us. And I really haven't really prepped anything for this show. Have you?
nicole: Well, I've just been thinking a lot about it. Honestly. I've been thinking about, uh, the people that have died. prepping in a very personal way. What, what do I wanna ask you? What do I wanna share? You know, not planning it too much 'cause it's just like every single episode that, what's exciting about this podcast and what we try to share with our listener and our viewer is to.
Be prepped, but also be open and ready to listen and receive what your person you're talking to is about. Right. And not just have an agenda. 'cause that's where I think we learn the most. can you share, like the first experience that you had [00:02:00] with death, what are the things that you thought about or you, or helped you get through that time?
Jolene: That is a great question.
nicole: And it doesn't have to be the first, it can be whatever maybe is the most impactful or where it resonated for you.
Jolene: I, I think
nicole: I think probably the most.
Jolene: was when I was a teenager. I was 16, my friend committed suicide, that is such a horrible thing to have to go through on so many different levels that when a grandparent passes away, they've had a good life.
They've, you know, it, it that, like that is a natural. phenomenon in our lives that we encounter and you expect, but when something like that happens, it shakes you to your very core and it, and I mean, I can still, I can relive that day in my mind as it as if it were yesterday. So
nicole: Was it one of your [00:03:00] friends?
Jolene: yeah. So she was a year younger than me, Stacy, and she lived across the street from, from me. and yeah, I, I mean, it was a Sunday morning and, um, she, her, her parents were gone for the weekend. She was supposed to be staying with a friend. She had a fight with a boyfriend. Um, she wrecked her parents' car. whole thing was horrible.
nicole: Was it the first time you'd experienced suicide?
Jolene: Yes,
nicole: Yes.
Jolene: That was,
nicole: it, so, was it something that you'd thought had, was it like, wait, that happens? Or what was that like for you?
Jolene: it's not something you prepare yourself for, right? Because you
nicole: such a.
Jolene: think that's going to happen. And so to, to, to have it be my friend who lived across the street from me and to see her body being carried, carried out of her house and, and all of the, the
nicole: Things. It [00:04:00] was
Jolene: something that
nicole: that you just have to
Jolene: deal
nicole: deal with again on
Jolene: different levels.
Like, I've missed my
nicole: friend,
Jolene: could
nicole: could I have done something?
Jolene: did
nicole: Did she really mean
Jolene: that?
nicole: that
Jolene: accident? Was it, you know, all of the, the unknowns. to,
nicole: to
be able to process that as
Jolene: as a 16-year-old
was
nicole: so,
Jolene: And it is
nicole: is something that I think
Jolene: I wanted to be
nicole: so open and honest with my girls, that
Jolene: nothing
nicole: ever, ever, ever
Jolene: that is
nicole: that is bad enough
Jolene: that you
nicole: you have to end your,
Jolene: That
nicole: that you
Jolene: you've done
nicole: done it and you look.
Jolene: and at a 16-year-old girl's perspective, you know, a fight with a boy, she wrecked her parents' car. I mean, and she thought those were the worst things that could ever happen to her,
nicole: And that there was no way.
Jolene: you just hope that no one ever has to feel like that because obviously that wasn't the answer.
nicole: how did you process it? How did, were you able to talk to someone? how did it affect your [00:05:00] life?
Jolene: her parents were both teachers, so that was the other part, hard part. Her dad
nicole: dad,
Jolene: math teacher. they took time off of of work, but I mean, you know, just seeing her house, seeing her bedroom window every single day and knowing that she wasn't there, having
nicole: to see her dad at school,
Jolene: I mean, I couldn't talk to him for months because I
nicole: I would just break down and cry.
Jolene: you know, that feeling. I, you
nicole: you know what? I've never experienced
Jolene: the
nicole: the feeling,
Jolene: like that since then. so to
nicole: to say that
Jolene: my
nicole: my first experienced death is it that it was so
Jolene: shocking and jarring and, and unfathomable to, to
nicole: to even come that change my perspective on,
Jolene: because nothing has been that bad since.
nicole: so when my father must been
Jolene: four years ago,
was a weekend, he had a heart
nicole: heart attack on
Jolene: and he died on a Saturday. Like it, we,
nicole: have that time to
Jolene: We knew it was coming. We [00:06:00] were
nicole: with him,
Jolene: passed away. It was, I will
nicole: I will say.
Jolene: an absolutely beautiful, it was a beautiful experience because we got to be with him when he left this earth and when he, you know, we got to be the last things that he heard and the last things that he saw. having that experience, um, was obviously horrible to have to say goodbye to your dad, but it was, it was also so incredibly beautiful in that sense. So when you compare those two experiences, I mean, how do you, how do you prepare for death? Because you don't know in what form it's going to come, and I don't know how emotionally you prepare yourself for something like that,
nicole: When, when your friend died, did it change the way you looked at life?
Jolene: Oh, I'm sure it did at the time, you know, all of the, the petty, you know,
nicole: Things that you thought matter
Jolene: [00:07:00] you as a 16-year-old, you were able to see it in a, in a broader view. remember my mom being very angry and. I remember
nicole: sitting in the car
Jolene: her after coming home from something. I mean, this was in the days following, and we were
nicole: or both just sitting in the car talking about
Jolene: and, and all that.
And
nicole: it. She looked at,
Jolene: I just remember the anger and hurt in her eyes. She saw what, what Stacey's parents were going through. And again, as a parent, I don't know how you ever, ever, ever, ever
nicole: recover
Jolene: like that. And,
nicole: and I remember like
Jolene: like
nicole: it was jarring.
Jolene: that mom had this an, you know, as we were all mourning and then all of a sudden I look at mom and she's so angry and And I remember looking at her thinking, oh, this is like, okay. I mean, this is, this is a different emotion, you know?
nicole: well, there's one thing about grief. [00:08:00] That grief, I always say that grief is a beast and you have no idea when it's gonna hit you and what form it's gonna hit you. And depending on the circumstances, like in some ways it makes sense that your mom was really angry. Like you don't, it doesn't, it's not like the movies. it's a very, um, unpredictable. Feeling? I had a similar experience, similar and different. my most impactful, 'cause I didn't know my grandparents well, and so it was sort of this when they died, uh, a couple of them died when I was in high school. I didn't even know them, so it was not even
Jolene: Hmm.
nicole: a thing. and as you know, my boyfriend in college, we broke up and I moved to New York and he married someone else. I had just seen him like five months before, um, as friends and long [00:09:00] story short, he got in a car accident and was killed
Jolene: Hmm.
nicole: he had just turned 27. I'd just spoken to him on the phone and that.
Experience rocked my world in a way that I, I will never forget it. we certainly didn't have cell phones yet. And, uh, one of my, uh, girlfriends Beth called me and left a message on my answering machine, and she said, please call me back. And she said, my home number is blank, and my work number is blank.
And she mixed up the numbers and I was like, something's wrong.
Jolene: Hmm.
nicole: And I remember calling and it was like, she told me, and it was like the bottom dropped out. Like It was like, wait a minute. this isn't supposed to happen. This is supposed to like, you're supposed to be 80 or 90.
And, and he was such a vibrant, vivacious human. It was like. What, and I remember standing on [00:10:00] the, the subway platform and just being in this such shock and deep grief and watching the world go by and thinking, how are you still going by Brian's dead, how are you still going by? Like it was just like, what?
Jolene: hmm.
nicole: And for me it was this huge wake up call that, oh my God, I don't have time. Who knows when my time is? and that is honestly when my love of travel got pushed to the hilt. 'cause I had barely traveled at that point. And the two places I wanted to go were London and, and New Orleans. And I went within two months.
And, and it might sound morbid Joe, but I have thought about dying every day since. I think about it every day. I don't think about it every day. Like everybody dying. Everybody dying. I think about my own death. I think about my friend's death. I think about my family's death, and it meaning like there's this [00:11:00] feeling of like, I truly like treasure every moment because I have no idea when it's done.
Jolene: Wow.
nicole: And, and that's being said that like when my mom died in 2017, she had been sick, she had dementia, and she had been, you know, diagnosed for eight years, but she had been sick for so long and that we had sort of waited, like I had been waiting for the call for like eight years.
Jolene: Hmm,
nicole: And ironically when I got the call.
From my brother. I thought he was just calling to say hi. Like it was just, and, and it, who did it knock the wind out from me under me. And it was this very strange, completely different feeling this feeling of my mom being not here on the earth anymore. This body that gave me life is not there. I [00:12:00] was so untethered. I didn't know, I had thought because she had dementia, that I had grieved already. And instead it was like, because she had dementia. I started my grief because I was grieving the woman that I missed so long ago.
And I have to say, like some of my friends here in New York shout out, were so incredible. My girlfriend Ann was like, we have to do something. And we went and got flowers and we did this whole thing for my mom. we were like read letters that she wrote me and it was just such a beautiful healing ritual, um, that I'm so grateful for.
And then a month after, my husband Josh, he threw a dinner 'cause my mom was this incredible cook and. he invited all these friends of mine. There was [00:13:00] like 12 of us who made the space that weren't afraid to talk about the death, weren't afraid to, like, what can I do? I'm so sorry. And I was so grateful.
We, he made meals that, or you know, food that she liked. And then I made my mom's lemon bars.
Jolene: Hmm.
nicole: And I remember sitting around the table and I toasted to my mom and I said, you know, to these friends. I was like, I'm so grateful that you held the space for me. 'cause I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do this grief thing.
And you all were not afraid and you were there for me. And I said, and we're all gonna die and we all have friends. We're all gonna die and we're all gonna know people that die. And I just am so grateful that you're around this table to be here for me. It was such a gift and such a, like, just a wake up call in a way, in a [00:14:00] totally different way.
Jolene: can I go back to what you said about, you think about death and
nicole: Yeah, I do.
Jolene: Like do you. Like, like what do you think?
nicole: It's truly not like I'm a goth girl and like super morbid or anything. It's more like, um, I get on the plane and I'm like very grateful for the plane
Jolene: mm.
nicole: and I, I acknowledge that like I want, I want to be safe and I want everybody to be safe. I see airplanes, I mean, part of it is 'cause I saw the plane hit tower one, but I see airplanes in the sky and I say to them like, I hope you're safe.
I'm wishing you a safe journey. Like, I'm just aware.
Jolene: Yeah.
nicole: that, is that weird? Is that dramatic? I don't know. I've done it since I was 27. Just like being in a car. I'm just aware, just like how lucky we are to be here. I'm just [00:15:00] incredibly aware of the fragility of life and when I'm having a bad day, I think, Nicole, you are lucky to be here girl,
Jolene: no, I love that because I think from a religious perspective, think we would, I do that. Um, but instead of thinking it, I'm, I'm talking to God.
nicole: Right.
Jolene: think you're like, okay, thank you. Thank you for this day. I'm, am, I'm on this prayer list at church, so if somebody does die, I get a text and we get a
nicole: Right.
Jolene: of, you know, for the repose of their soul.
And so it's, it's like you are thinking about it every day. with Jeff being gone last weekend and I was gone, this walk by myself, and it's usually a walk that we do together. And, um, so I'm by myself and I'm like, huh. Could I survive without him? [00:16:00] And then my mind just starts going with, okay, so I wouldn't cook every night, would I?
I mean, you know,
nicole: You know, you just start.
Jolene: because that is, I think, I think that's your body's natural reaction to, okay, what if,
nicole: Absolutely.
Jolene: so
nicole: by myself in Utah, same thing. I do the same thing You do. Yeah, exactly the same. Am I gonna be okay? How would this look? What would I do? I don't want it. But it goes there.
Jolene: So is it, is it, is that your body trying to deal with it before you have to deal with it? Like you're kind of prepping yourself. You're, you're kind of playing it out in your head. So when it does happen, you've prepared yourself at least mentally for a minute.
nicole: I don't, I mean, you know, since we're sharing all this intimate stuff, and I think, uh, and we've talked about this on the podcast before, Josh was diagnosed with stage three colon cancer at 46 with no symptoms. Get your colonoscopies, everybody.
Jolene: a
nicole: Get your [00:17:00] colonoscopies. Don't be scared. Don't be shy. I'll hold your virtual hand.
I'm a pro at it. Just get your colonoscopies. So all to say I was sort of faced with it,
Really like out of the blue and quick. I mean, Josh, he handled the entire experience with such incredible grace and positivity and he was totally inspiring through the whole thing, honestly, but.
The way that I dealt with it was I said, you know, I need our community. This can't be a secret. we need each other. And he was like, okay. it was vulnerable and terrifying for him. But I reached out to everyone and I was like, this is what's going on. And I cannot tell you how much our community, our tribe, I called it the tribe of love, uh, helped us get through this.
We used to joke though, because cancer is such a big word, I now have so much familiarity [00:18:00] with it between Josh and my dad and my friend Beth. Like I, I know a lot about it and it doesn't scare me the way it used to, but it's, the word scares a lot of people. And so Josh and I used to, to tease each other about, we had friends that would, um.
Have cancer face or cancer voice
Jolene: Hmm.
nicole: where they couldn't handle it. And like he was out to lunch with a friend when he was going through treatment and he said to his friend, I'm not gonna die right here. You know, 'cause the friend was so scared, like had this like contorted face and it's, I think, really important to talk about it and to not be secretive about it. because truly your people are the ones that are gonna help you. so, so all to say, I remember. When he first was, we were first told, and he had to do this CT scan thing, and, like [00:19:00] your mom. I first was really angry and waiting for the results, just like bracing myself.
And I'm like, why am I so angry? But I was like, I don't want to lose him. You know? And what does that look like? And and, and poor Josh, because I think I definitely have like, trauma from it because I am like always worried when he goes on a plane. Always. Like all of that sort of separation anxiety is, is so palpable.
He's like, settle down lady.
Jolene: Okay, so tell me about, tell me what your tribe provided for you. I mean, of course they're going to say, um, you know, we love you, we support you. We're here for you. All that. what was it that you got from them that helped you
nicole: When it came with, with, with, with Josh,
Jolene: with, yeah, or even like with your mom, with, with dealing with that.
Tell me what it was that they provided for you.
nicole: when it came to [00:20:00] Josh, I, I was writing these group emails, it was more not a journal. It wasn't that, it wasn't that self-indulgent. but it was more like people wanted to know what was going on. So I was sort of describing the experiences of, of like what it was like to be in the hospital, what it was like to be at the, in the oncology suite, um, which helped me process.
And also people were able to process with me in a way that it was like, oh, thank you for telling me this. I didn't know how this worked. And sometimes I might joke or, and it was my way to sort of feel that I wasn't alone
Jolene: Mm-hmm.
nicole: with Josh. I think Josh definitely, definitely felt more isolated than I did.
'cause I was the one writing emails. He was the one going through it. Right. And sometimes, I think that it was probably really lonely for him. in terms of with my mom, [00:21:00] it was honestly not being afraid to talk about it. I think that's the thing, whether it be cancer, uh, and someone survives or doesn't survive, but like an illness or death, I think people tend to say, oh, I don't know what to say now.
The best thing you can do. Listener and viewer, when you think, I don't know what to say is say to your loved one, I don't know what to say.
Jolene: Yeah.
nicole: I love you. I don't know what to say. I'm so sorry. Like, that is beautiful because you're acknowledging that that person is going through something versus pretending that there's nothing going on.
Or not put making that phone call because you're like, oh, it's gonna be so awkward. I don't know what to say. Okay,
Jolene: yeah,
nicole: that's great. Like stay in the discomfort of, I don't know what to say and I'm just here
Jolene: yeah.
nicole: and, [00:22:00] and I think also the question, what do you need is not helpful to someone that is going through grief or is going through a hard time because they don't know what they need.
Jolene: mm-hmm.
nicole: just do something doesn't matter or just pick up the phone or show up and say, let's go take a walk. Like, I think those are the things, those connecting things and, being willing to be vulnerable and acknowledge that you don't know how to do it.
Jolene: I want to know Do you think happens after death?
nicole: I don't exactly know. But
I've had an experience with my mom where I felt like she spoke to me in butterflies, and the song Summertime, by Porgy and Bess, the musical, Porgy and Bes. 'cause my, 'cause my mom and I used to sing summertime all the time together.
Jolene: Hmm.
nicole: so I would travel [00:23:00] like in these random places, and all of a sudden summertime would come up and I'd be like, hi mom.
Jolene: Hmm
nicole: So I, I don't know. I don't know. I don't believe in heaven. I don't believe in hell. I do believe in energy. I'm fascinated by the thought that. are we here just once? Are we here more, more than once? Like, do you feel like you've, sometimes you meet people and you're like, Ooh, you're an old soul.
And then sometimes like, oh, you're brand new. Like, so I'm fascinated by all that, but I don't of course have any answers. What about, what about you? What do you think?
Jolene: none of us have the answers, so it
nicole: Right.
Jolene: be what you.
nicole: Yeah.
Jolene: What you feel, um,
nicole: like there's an energy for sure, but I don't know. It could be my coping mechanism to want them there with me.
Jolene: right. obviously I believe in heaven.
nicole: Obviously, because [00:24:00] you're Catholic, you mean, okay.
Jolene: yes, and, and a Christian, I mean, those are pretty foundational to
nicole: Mm-hmm.
Jolene: Christianity.
nicole: What does that look like to you? What does that mean? Like is there pearly gates and you walk through and you're in a white robe? Or what does it look like?
Jolene: see, I don't, I really have developed a different sense of what that is as I've gotten older.
nicole: Yeah,
Jolene: so yes, as a kid, that's what you, yes. That's what you thought. so weird because I, there are so many times that I think of it as the Hunger Games.
nicole: really
Jolene: is this dome that we're living in
nicole: that's, that movie scares the crap out of me, by the way.
Jolene: right? in my view then it is heaven
nicole: At the top of the dome, or what do you mean? At the top
Jolene: of the
nicole: of,
Jolene: and they're manipulating things, but
nicole: Ooh.
Jolene: way. So
nicole: Okay.
Jolene: like, not in the Hunger Games bad way,
nicole: Okay.
Jolene: but I believe in praying, um, for intercessions, meaning, like, I, I pray, [00:25:00] I pray to Mary to pray for me.
I, I ask Mary. The mother of Jesus to pray to Jesus, to talk to Jesus for on my behalf, to help me be a better mother and a better wife. that's totally a Catholic thing, by the way, it praying to, to Mary. And it's not that we
nicole: Jesus.
Jolene: Mary. Well see, that's the thing. And it is not that we are, we put Mary on this pedestal, that we treat her as a deity. She's the mother of God. She's the mother of Jesus. So it's like, you wanted Callie to send you a TCU T-shirt
nicole: Okay,
Jolene: and
nicole: and so I'm gonna pray to Mary.
Jolene: and so you're gonna ask me, Hey, could you put in a
nicole: Oh,
Jolene: word for me? And so you, you could send Callie a text and you
nicole: I see.
Jolene: I would love for you to get me a really cool TCU sweatshirt, but what you're also going to do is send [00:26:00] me, or you're gonna call me when you see me, and you're gonna go, Hey, I sent this to Callie, but I'm wondering if you could just remind her that I'd really like this cool sweatshirt that I saw.
Would you mind saying something to her as well? That's why we pray to Mary, is that we are asking God for
nicole: I love, I love this analogy. I love it.
Jolene: it
nicole: love it. It's a t but, but it's a TCU, I mean, sweatshirt. I love it. Why not? Why not? Okay.
Jolene: it's like, it's,
nicole: You're, you're like praying, praying it, right. You're praying it all, all the options. Gimme all the options.
Jolene: going to all of my, yes, I'm gonna go to all of my, um, resources.
nicole: Got it.
Jolene: as Catholics, we believe that we've got a whole bunch of resources. So
nicole: Got it.
Jolene: we can ask Mary for intercessions, we can ask saints, we can ask our our guardian angel. Um, of course we're gonna talk directly to God and ask him for the things that we want. But, these are just other resources we're [00:27:00] using. So anyway, I say all that because I do believe that as we pray and we pray for health and safety, and so as, as you said, you pray for Josh when he leaves on a trip, or you, you, you know, you ask for protection or you know, you
nicole: Yeah. Yeah,
Jolene: Josh has protection. I do that same thing of, okay, you know how, but it's in form of a prayer.
nicole: sure.
Jolene: I it's the, it's that same feeling. I'm just asking, I'm asking God specifically for, you know, to, to watch over us and, and all that. So to think of heaven, I do think that God has a hand in everything that we do, and we just have to be open to it. So we have to be open to death, we have to be open to, that he is in total control and he's got a plan from the, from the minute we're conceived, he has a plan for our life. but as humans, [00:28:00] we also have free will. we have to ask for, for him to guide us and to make his path clear hope that we can live out what he has in store for us. And so if that, even I, and so I think, you know, Stacey's death, was not part of his plan, but she had the free will to do that. And when, when I look at that from a religious standpoint, it makes me feel like God was with me to deal with that. Because at, at the time, I needed help to get through that event. and he was there guiding me through it, even in a, in a horrible, horrible event like that.
nicole: You were not Catholic at the time
Jolene: No, no.
nicole: 'cause
Jolene: I was a Christian. I
nicole: Right, but I'm just, I'm thinking about suicide and the Catholic church.
Jolene: oh gosh,
nicole: That's a rough one, isn't it? That's a rough one. [00:29:00] I'm assuming that different popes have different, not maybe stances, but levels of,
Jolene: I think they can write different encyclicals that would express what, what they feel. Um, God has told them a different, you know, about subjects and all that. much of the Catholic Foundation is written in the catechism of the Catholic church. You could look up anything and you can see, you know, what, what do the Catholics think about this. I
nicole: I would say though that some,
Jolene: the Catholic view. is different than my view. And, and even a Christian view may be different from what I think. And so I,
nicole: I have to, I would like to say my foundation is built on
Jolene: being a
nicole: a Christian and being Catholic
Jolene: but there are
nicole: something.
Jolene: still struggle with, and I think that's human.
I
nicole: I think so too.
Jolene: you know, to say that if babies aren't baptized,
nicole: Right, [00:30:00] right, right, right, right, right, right.
Jolene: they're, uh,
nicole: Yeah. Can we go back to the Hunger Games analogy? I wanna see what heaven looks like. I don't like, I'm just like, I'm trying to get a visual on this. So think
Jolene: you ever think that
nicole: about Heaven being a hunger game. Listen, this was my experience with the Hunger Games. I never read them, okay.
Never read any of the books. And my girlfriend, Diana, I think Anne was there too, they were like, let's go see the First Hunger Game movie. And I'm like, okay. I knew nothing about nothing, and I, we were in New York at 14th Street at the big theater. The movie starts and I'm seeing these kids, and all of a sudden they're fucking, yes, Linda, they're fucking killing each other.
And I'm looking at them, they're smiling, and I am horrified. I was like, what is this fucking movie? This movie is freaking me out. It's freaking me out. Like in the first 10 minutes, I'd never seen [00:31:00] more kids kill each other. I was like, how is this popular? What the hell is going on here?
Jolene: Yeah.
nicole: Oh my God. I barely got through that movie and I never saw any of those movies again.
I was so distressed. I was so distressed by the violence and the Hunger Games that, and, and I was distressed that it was so popular and people were like, yay, kill the kids that I am like, oh, so heaven's like that. I don't wanna be there. Like, what, what's,
Jolene: Well, okay,
nicole: is it like, is it like cotton candy looking and is like, is there, like, could you hit your head on the roof?
Like, I, because I thought if there was a heaven, it's, it never, there's no roof.
Jolene: Yes, except, okay, so I have to
nicole: Lots of questions.
Jolene: wanna get, I don't wanna get really bad comments on me thinking that heaven is like the hunger Games. I'm saying in the concept of heavenly [00:32:00] and God and angels looking upon us and looking at the things that we do
nicole: I see.
Jolene: and having a hand in it.
So as we pray. You know, for, for someone's soul or as we pray for someone to get to get better if they're ill, I feel like those prayers are being heard in heaven and that they have some influence on what we do here on Earth.
nicole: So I have a question, and I'm not sure if this, I guess this is death and dying. I mean, if you think that your path is laid out, how do you have free will? How does that work? I don't really understand that. I
Jolene: So,
nicole: mean, are there options?
Jolene: so we believe that God has your life planned out for you. He knows the, the minute you're gonna die, he knows, um, he knows these things. you have so many choices that you can make on your, on your journey here on. you [00:33:00] have the free will to choose right or wrong, you know, go left or right in, in, in, in every day in your life. And so by focusing yourself on God and, and asking for him to guide you and to show you the way you're always in tune to what he would want you to do. So in, when you are in constant communication with him, you know, whether it's, uh, you know, help me with this meeting. I hope, you know, just give me the wisdom to say the right words in this meeting. Let it go the way that it, that you
nicole: want it to go.
Jolene: Let your will be done, not my will. And if this meeting is not supposed to go well, well, and
nicole: That's your
Jolene: Please allow me to accept your will. and so being in constant communication then allows I think you to be able to handle the outcomes better because knowing [00:34:00] then that, that, that this was meant like you did all of that you could do, you chose the
nicole: the right
Jolene: the, the right path, and, and you believe in God that, that what was supposed to happen is going to happen, you've got to also be able to accept that and, and, and that's with death and dying as well.
You know, you've got to be able,
nicole: again. That's why
Jolene: God for that experience with my dad because it was such
nicole: I
Jolene: a, a wonderful way to watch a
nicole: person,
Jolene: from one life, from this life into the next. And, For people that don't have that. Um, I guess
nicole: That relationship
Jolene: it
nicole: makes me wonder how they
Jolene: how do they reconcile someone's death so when you say there's an energy, it could be God in your mind, [00:35:00] right?
nicole: this is, I I, now I'm just thinking about this 'cause of what you said. Like, I remember, um, my brother was with my mom when she died, I sound like I travel all the time, but I did at the time, and we had just been in Spain and Josh and I, we were jet lagged and we had taken a nap and I woke up with a start and I was like, something's up.
And then I got a phone call.
Jolene: Oh, wow.
nicole: So a and I do, and this is like, this is the podcast. I mean, I guess just be vulnerable. I was totally jealous that my brother got to be there and I didn't.
Jolene: Oh, wow.
nicole: my brother had a really hard time with it, and we, we ended up scattering her ashes, um, a couple of months later at Stinson Beach. And that was all me, like, I need this, and you don't know this, but you need this. And it ended up being [00:36:00] this beautiful morning and, and the girls were little and we had flowers and it was so healing, so, and hilarious and amazing.
And, but I, I do remember feeling like left out,
I would like to experience that as a human on this earth. I, I didn't have my own baby, so I don't have that experience. I didn't get to give life.
Jolene: Mm-hmm.
nicole: Um, and there was a moment, uh, a couple years ago when sort of I was feeling lost and the acting thing was not, I wasn't working as much and I thought, do I wanna be a death doula?
Do you know what a death doula is?
Jolene: wow.
nicole: And I,
Jolene: I'm assuming it's someone that just is with you and helps you
nicole: yes. And helps you through, through the process. And I remember talking to my therapist at the time, she's like, oh my God, you'd be amazing at it. And then just, you know what? Life happened and work started happening again. And, um, but I always think what an [00:37:00] honor it must be to be with someone as they go. Having the faith that you have, does it give you comfort to know that you believe that there's a plan, so that whenever it happens, you're like, that's, I'm, I'm good.
Like I would, I would think that there would be some sort of like peace and calm in that.
Jolene: Yeah,
nicole: But I also imagine like, like let's say you, God forbid, and I don't wish this on you ever, that you got diagnosed with something,
Jolene: Mm-hmm.
nicole: I would imagine. It doesn't mean the plan is that you die. It could mean the plan is that you have the tools to be able to live through this too.
Jolene: Mm-hmm. I think it is again, it's,
nicole: again, it's
Jolene: you have to be open to what God's will is. And
nicole: so if it's
Jolene: for you to
nicole: fight
Jolene: and, and
nicole: and whether that means
Jolene: helping other people along
nicole: [00:38:00] your journey as well or
Jolene: you're being used for some testing of some drug, um, that's gonna help others after that.
nicole: that, I mean, I just, I think there's so many positive
Jolene: that you can put on anything that happens if
nicole: You,
Jolene: if you truly believe that it's God's will.
nicole: so whether that's death, I mean, I, you know, I couldn't,
Jolene: I
nicole: I can't even, like, I can't make my mind go
Jolene: To
nicole: to losing a child. Like I can't even, you know, because I talked about, you know, walking
Jolene: and, and
nicole: and thinking about.
Jolene: death, you know, okay, at some point I'm gonna lose my spouse.
I hope I never have to live to watch my children die. And I,
nicole: Sure.
Jolene: even prepare myself for that. But
nicole: Again, if that
Jolene: happen,
nicole: I would have to, I would
Jolene: have to have
nicole: have
Jolene: big
nicole: conversations
Jolene: God and say, having a hard time with this. You're really gonna have to help me because, uh, yeah, this isn't the
nicole: The way I thought.
Jolene: would go. [00:39:00] But if you're gonna have faith, you gotta, you
nicole: Right, right. Do you, I'm, I don't, forgive me that I don't really know what the Catholics do. Will you be buried? Is that what you want to do? Is that, does it, is that a.
Jolene: funny because, um, Catholics believe that your, the body that you have here will go to heaven. And so one of the things, and, and I don't know if this has changed, and I, I guess I should, I should look this up or I should research this a little bit more to see if this is still the Catholic stance on this, but like, you're
nicole: You're not
Jolene: get tattoos or,
nicole: Right. I knew that.
Jolene: really?
nicole: I did know that. Yeah.
Jolene: you are, you are, the body that you have is gonna go to heaven. And so, um, you know, whatever you do to your body here on earth, you know, is that how you wanna be seen in heaven? Is, uh, is kind of the way that it was, it
nicole: It might, it might be a Buddhist thing too, because when I've gone to Asia and you go [00:40:00] to, I've been to Japan, and you go to bathhouses, there are no tattoos allowed.
Jolene: Oh, really? Interesting.
nicole: to cover them up or you can't, or you're not just not allowed.
Jolene: Hmm.
nicole: ' cause it's something to do with, I, forgive me if this is a Buddhist thing or not, but it has something to do with, you know, the, the sacredness of your body.
Jolene: Yeah. Which is why Mormons wear garments, you know, that,
nicole: That seems to be changing. I hear the modern Mormons are, yes. They just changed the law that They can be sleeveless, which is brand new, like as in maybe two weeks ago.
Jolene: they're still, they're still wearing their garments though.
nicole: I can, I mean, I can't speak for, for Mormons, I just know that Mormon wives thing is certainly moving, moving the needle a little bit. Let's just say that. Let's just say that.
Jolene: Okay. All
nicole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So are you going to be buried
Jolene: so [00:41:00] yes, Jeff and I already have our, um, we've already purchased our plots
nicole: really,
Jolene: Mm-hmm.
nicole: really?
Jolene: it's a family cemetery. It's actually a kind of a church cemetery, but it's his family, his great grandparents started it. and
nicole: Oh my gosh.
Jolene: I know, and so we are going to be, uh, we will be buried in, um, in, I'm sorry.
No, it was, it was his grandparents Ren, it's the Ren cemetery. that's where, where we, we've already bought our two little plots, um, near his parents. so we will have our, our headstone there. However, I want my body donated to science, and I think that is a non-Catholic thing.
nicole: I think so too,
Jolene: but
nicole: I love that.
Jolene: my organs donated, I
nicole: Mm-hmm.
Jolene: I would love to be an organ, organ donor if possible. But otherwise, I would like, you know, I mean. Use my body, which is so antithetical to what I just said [00:42:00] about believe that your body goes to heaven. So I'm gonna be a mess up there, obviously, if they've like taken everything out.
I'm gonna be walking around going, yeah, sorry, I look like this, but I was trying to do some better things down there. Sorry. Y'all
nicole: but, but I love this because it is just sort of an indication that we all, humans aren't the labels, right?
Jolene: that that is true.
nicole: Just like we're talking about, we've got to talk that we aren't the labels, that we're all complicated and we have different stories. And just because you identify as a Catholic doesn't mean that you, that it's really important to you to donate your body to science, and then the rest of you will, whatever's left, I guess.
Jolene: yeah. Do Are we, how about you? Will you be buried?
nicole: No, I would like to be cremated. it's funny 'cause, so my stepmom died, we've talked about this before. She died on [00:43:00] January 6th, and she's buried in a beautiful natural cemetery. Um, which means there it's all natural material. It's a Jewish section of the cemetery, uh, in northern California. It's really beautiful.
It's under these beautiful oaks and everything is natural. the headstone is like a flat rock. It's really, really beautiful. so I vi every time I go to Northern California, I actually visit, I visit her, which is the first time I've really experienced that. I, I mean my grandparents, I guess, are buried in Texas.
And so it's sort of this, it's a very quiet healing thing for me. And I also do it for my dad because my dad hasn't been since her yurt site, which is the celebration a year after her death. and it was during COVID and none of us went. And so I go and I FaceTime him so that he can be near her. and I always joke [00:44:00] because he wanted to be near the stairs and I, and, and there's like a hill and I'm like, dad, you're just gonna have to cuddle 'cause there's really no room for you here.
Um, and we laugh and, and uh, and, and you know, I think about that because it just feels so strange and sort of. Like surreal. And I think about my dad being gone and what's that gonna feel like, like when I'm actually going to talk to him.
Jolene: Mm-hmm.
nicole: but to me, I would like to be cremated. although I do remember when my mom died, and this is so weird, but we're talking about this stuff that, you know, it was a couple days before Tyler was gonna get her ashes.
And I just like had this horrible feeling of like, she's alone. Like, I hated
Jolene: Hmm.
nicole: feeling that she's alone. And I had to keep remembering she's dead. It's [00:45:00] okay. Like she's okay. you know, it's funny because Josh and I, we, we made a will and we made a will early. I had a will because my mom. Uh, died fairly, not young, but young-ish. so, or she got sick when we were kind of young, so it was like, I wasn't afraid of having a will. And at the time I wasn't married, I didn't have kids. And people were like, why are you having a will? I'm like, well, we're gonna, we're all gonna die.
Jolene: yeah.
nicole: Um,
Jolene: All
nicole: yeah. Yeah. No bearing. it's truly a privilege to do this with you because I suggest listener and viewer that you have these conversations. it, makes it less scary, I think, It's a very insightful conversation to have, to understand a loved one, what they think, what they want. And one thing that I can say is that doing your will when you're well. Is like the biggest gift you can give to any loved [00:46:00] one. Um, because when someone is sick, the last thing you wanna do is deal with all of that.
There's so much stress and if you have that stuff done, it's like the biggest gift to your loved ones so that they can just be with you,
Jolene: totally.
nicole: Right?
Jolene: That's a great point.
nicole: Yeah. Do you have any other thoughts?
Jolene: No,
nicole: No, I like what you said.
Jolene: I mean, have, have this conversation with someone because maybe it'll make it, um, a little easier for you when the time comes. Um, possibly. but at least maybe you've, you've given it some, some thought and, and maybe you've expressed what you want after death.
You, we are all gonna die, and so if you've let people know that, you know, you would like to donate your body or you'd like to be cremated or you know, all
nicole: I wanna be, I wanna donate too, Joe, that I forgot to say that I wanna be donated first and then
Jolene: and then we can cremate you.
nicole: Yes, ma'am.
Jolene: Okay. All right.
nicole: I, why? Like, I want my, I want, I wanna help.[00:47:00]
Jolene: yeah.
nicole: love that You do too. Yeah, yeah.
Jolene: Well,
nicole: Yeah. And I think, you know, death, I mean, all this stuff is, it's awkward and fumbly and it could be funny, like, and you might learn something, right?
Jolene: totally. Yeah.
nicole: don't know. Do you have a good for the soul?
Jolene: Yes. My good for the soul is because Bobby is here with us this week and Bobby listens every day to MO News So, Mo News, it is, um, MO News. The handle is M-O-S-H-E-H They have a
nicole: Podcast.
Jolene: they're good about being really unbiased and it's like conversational news. So it's interesting to listen to. Um, and they have a daily podcast that kind of gives you a synopsis of everything that's going on, but in [00:48:00] a really unbiased, straightforward way.
Mo News,
nicole: That's hilarious because my good for the soul was Bobby's suggestion of MO News because
Jolene: Well,
nicole: what.
Jolene: go.
nicole: There we go. And we will put the Instagram handle and the podcast in the show notes. Because, because of her and talking to her on Sunday and she talked about MO News and I'd never heard of it. And they're BA based in New York actually.
And so I've been listening, Bobby, thank you. I've been listening every day. And it's more than the straight hour news, which is eight minutes. It can be, it's like a, it can be the 20 to 40 depending on what it is. Um, but they go into more depth and it's fantastic. It's fantastic. And I was thrilled that she listens to it
Jolene: Yeah.
nicole: and could give us, so we have,
Jolene: a good, you've been a good influence on her.
nicole: oh, Bobby, love that girl.
Jolene: She's
nicole: Alright. Shall we do the, would you, rathers,
Jolene: Yes.
nicole: [00:49:00] Would you rather go back to the past? Meet your loved ones who've passed away or go to the future to meet your children and your grandchildren.
Jolene: oh. Um, oh. I think I've gotta go to the future and meet my grandchildren. Yes. Because what if I'm not here to enjoy my grandchildren? So,
nicole: you will be.
Jolene: I, well, they better get going then. I mean, I'm not getting any younger.
nicole: Listen, you're fine. You're fine.
Jolene: I want those grandkids.
nicole: They're not that old. Your daughters,
Jolene: I know, I know. And actually, no, I don't want them to have grandkid. I don't want them to have kids
nicole: you're gonna be a, you're gonna be an old bag lady. Don't worry.
Jolene: God, I [00:50:00] know. I seriously, you know
nicole: We're gonna, we're gonna be in our nineties little bitties. Let's do the podcast.
Jolene: Yes, we will. We will still be doing this 40 years
nicole: God bless.
Jolene: Okay. Here's yours. I, and I almost feel like you've given this one to me before,
nicole: Okay.
Jolene: but would you rather know the date of your death
nicole: Oh yes.
Jolene: or the cause of your
nicole: I think we did do this. And I don't remember if I gave it to you or you gave it to me.
Jolene: I feel like you gave this to me once.
nicole: feels very like, it just gave me so much anxiety what you just did. 'cause I, because I don't believe in God, so I don't have that like padding to be like, it's gonna be fine. Now I gotta go meditate and get the anxiety outta me, the cause or the date.
Oh [00:51:00] God, if it was the, cause I would do everything I can to, not have that happen.
Jolene: but if
nicole: this just, oh,
Jolene: never get in a car again?
nicole: maybe
I find cars, so they freak me out. They just,
Jolene: you are going to die like it's going to happen. And so you can't change it. So if
nicole: well, what would you choose? Would you, would you choose the date or the thing?
Jolene: gosh, I don't think that I wanna know the
nicole: I don't, I don't wanna know either, because I think then you're just sort of, I can't speak for other people. For me, I would be in a state of panic, even if it was like 40 years from now.
Jolene: Well, okay, so let's say it's a week from now. Does
nicole: Oh
Jolene: is that okay? Because then that gives you like, okay, I better get my crap together. I got a week to live. Or if you know it's 40 years from now, you're like, [00:52:00] eh, I'm gonna go have fun. I got
nicole: yeah,
Jolene: years.
nicole: definitely did do this. Would you rather before,
Jolene: Okay,
nicole: I remember saying that I wanted to know the cause versus the date because I think about death every day. I am very aware of being here on the planet. So I don't know if I would do that much differently.
You know, it's not like I'd be like, I'm gonna drop everything and jump on a plane. I, I like, I am so grateful for my life. I feel so lucky, and I'm surrounded by incredible people, incredible friends like you. I'm. Adore Josh. I couldn't have asked for a better partner. I love my family. Like this is pretty awesome.
What would I do other than maybe thank everyone?
Jolene: yeah.
nicole: thank, thank you everyone.
Jolene: Okay. Wow. You're good to go.
nicole: Peace out. I'm going, [00:53:00] I'm going. Hunger games everybody.
Jolene: I will be the one to, to
nicole: Oh
Jolene: on you and put the tracker jackers on you.
nicole: Right on. Right on. Alright,
Jolene: having a hard conversation with me.
nicole: thank you. Um, thank you listener and viewer, uh, for being on this ride with us and please like and subscribe and follow. And again, if you would like to be a sponsor, please go to our website at www, we've got to talk.com, go to the contact page and, um, let's continue this community together.
Thank you, Jolene. Bye.
[00:54:00]
